Question about the Most Holy Trinity

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harshcshah

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It is my understanding that the Son is eternally begotten of the Father by the Father’s eternal self reflection which begets a perfect image of Himself which is the Son. I’m a little confused by this since this question has arisen in my mind: Does the Son eternally self-reflect upon Himself and if so what does this mean?

I’m just a little confused and would like it if someone could clarify this for me.
 
It is my understanding that the Son is eternally begotten of the Father by the Father’s eternal self reflection which begets a perfect image of Himself which is the Son. I’m a little confused by this since this question has arisen in my mind: Does the Son eternally self-reflect upon Himself and if so what does this mean?

I’m just a little confused and would like it if someone could clarify this for me.
Usually the term communicates is used. See Aquinas on the notions.
SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: The knowledge of the divine persons (Prima Pars, Q. 32)

Eternally, The Holy Trinity does not change, so ontological generation and spiration are not events. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not independent.
 
Interesting question. My answer is that the Son reflecting upon Himself sees himself as eternally begotten, generated, or coming forth from the Father as the Father’s Son and Word. A word is an expression of the intellect, mind, or thought and proceeds from the intellect. The Father sees Himself as the one begetting or generating the Son. So we have the person of the Father who begets and the person of the Son who is begotten.
 
It’s God’s essential and eternal self knowing, an act which originates in God and terminates in God. In this real procession of knowing, God relates to Himself as both generating and being generated by. It’s from this internal relation to God in this procession that both begins and ends in God that we have the opposed relationships of Paternity and Filiation, that is Father and Son.

If God self-knows himself again this is just identical to the first procession and does not indicate any new relations at all.
 
It’s God’s essential and eternal self knowing, an act which originates in God and terminates in God. In this real procession of knowing, God relates to Himself as both generating and being generated by. It’s from this internal relation to God in this procession that both begins and ends in God that we have the opposed relationships of Paternity and Filiation, that is Father and Son.

If God self-knows himself again this is just identical to the first procession and does not indicate any new relations at all.
There is a problem:If The Father is not the Son, then it is not a self-knowing. It is clear that we can’t imagine God without his personality. When God self-know as God the father, then the other side of self-knowing relation would be God the father, not God the son.
 

There is a problem:If The Father is not the Son, then it is not a self-knowing. It is clear that we can’t imagine God without his personality. When God self-know as God the father, then the other side of self-knowing relation would be God the father, not God the son.
“In God there are three Divine persons, really distinct, and equal in all things – the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.” – Baltimore Catechism No. 3, Q186

“The three Divine Persons are one and the same God, having one and the same Divine nature and substance.” – Baltimore Catechism No. 3, Q194
 
“In God there are three Divine persons, really distinct, and equal in all things – the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.” – Baltimore Catechism No. 3, Q186

“The three Divine Persons are one and the same God, having one and the same Divine nature and substance.” – Baltimore Catechism No. 3, Q194
Yes. Of course. But it has no relation to what I said.
 
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Vico:
“In God there are three Divine persons, really distinct, and equal in all things – the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.” – Baltimore Catechism No. 3, Q186

“The three Divine Persons are one and the same God, having one and the same Divine nature and substance.” – Baltimore Catechism No. 3, Q194
Yes. Of course. But it has no relation to what I said.
God is the same as His essence or nature. God is one.
 
God is the same as His essence or nature. God is one.
Yes. But is it possible to imagine God without his personalities? In self-knowing, God the Father, self-knows himsself, so known person is God the father, not the son.

The Father knows the Son, but it is not self-knowing; because The Son, is another person.
 
I am beginning to understand what seems to be your problem with this analogy:

You misunderstand the analogy to essentially state that, since God as Knower knows himself as the Knower, this means that even God’s own self-knowledge is the Knower.

But this disregards the fact that, though God as the Knower knows Himself as the Knower, He (as the Knower) still knows that this self-knowledge is still distinct from the Knower Himself.

What the analogy was attempting to explain is that, in God, the Knower relation and the Known relation are actually distinct in such a way that only God Himself knows the manner of such distinction.

Possible objection: Doesn’t this mean that the Son doesn’t know Himself since He’s not the Knower relation.

Reply to possible objection: The Son, as the Known relation, knows Himself only because this knowledge derived from the Knower relation (ie the Father).
 
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He (as the Knower) still knows that this self-knowledge is still distinct from the Knower Himself .
He doesn’t know it, because it is impossible. if there is any distinct, it would not be self-knowlege
What the analogy was attempting to explain is that, in God, the Knower relation and the Known relation are actually distinct in such a way that only God Himself knows the manner of such distinction .
there are not 2 sides in Reflective Relation.
Possible objection: Doesn’t this mean that the Son doesn’t know Himself since He’s not the Knower relation.

Reply to possible objection: The Son, as the Known relation, knows Himself only because this knowledge derived from the Knower relation (ie the Father).
No a good reply, but I don’t say that.
 
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Vico:
God is the same as His essence or nature. God is one.
Yes. But is it possible to imagine God without his personalities? In self-knowing, God the Father, self-knows himsself, so known person is God the father, not the son.

The Father knows the Son, but it is not self-knowing; because The Son, is another person.
God is simple – the three divine Persons are essential. One being and one mind.
 
God is simple – the three divine Persons are essential. One being and one mind.
So they can’t be distinct. Father is God’s Essence and Son is God’s Essence, Then Father is the son. We can say it about Holy spirit; And then, there will be no REAL TRINITY.
 
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Vico:
God is simple – the three divine Persons are essential. One being and one mind.
So they can’t be distinct. Father is God’s Essence and Son is God’s Essence, Then Father is the son. We can say it about Holy spirit; And then, there will be no REAL TRINITY.
The relations are essential and the relations are the persons. There is a real distinction.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
251 In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: “substance”, “person” or “hypostasis”, “relation” and so on. In doing this, she did not submit the faith to human wisdom, but gave a new and unprecedented meaning to these terms, which from then on would be used to signify an ineffable mystery, “infinitely beyond all that we can humanly understand”.82
252 The Church uses
I) the term “substance” (rendered also at times by “essence” or “nature”) to designate the divine being in its unity,
II) the term “person” or “hypostasis” to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and
III) the term “relation” to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.
254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another . "God is one but not solitary."86 “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.
 
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The relations are essential and the relations are the persons. There is a real distinction.
Are the divine persons Just God or a combination of God and something else? If They are just God, then they can’t be distinct and Trinity will not be real. But if they are a combination of God and something else, then they can’t be God, Because, as you said, God is simple.
 
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Vico:
The relations are essential and the relations are the persons. There is a real distinction.
Are the divine persons Just God or a combination of God and something else? If They are just God, then they can’t be distinct and Trinity will not be real. But if they are a combination of God and something else, then they can’t be God, Because, as you said, God is simple.
There is no composition in the Holy Trinity. The persons are never independent but indwell in one other.
 
There is no composition in the Holy Trinity. The persons are never independent but indwell in one other
Yes, But it is not an answer to what I said. Please answer to what I said. Thanks.
 
Ok, let me rephrase my answer to your post here:
Yes. But is it possible to imagine God without his personalities? In self-knowing, God the Father, self-knows himsself, so known person is God the father, not the son.

The Father knows the Son, but it is not self-knowing; because The Son, is another person.
The distinction between the Father and the Son (and the distinction between both and the Holy Ghost) are the only actual distinctions in God. All the attributes that are discoverable by reason alone, such as His existence, omnipotence, omniscience, and the fact that they (the attributes) are actually one and the same thing (ie Divine Simplicity), belong to the aspect of God that’s discoverable by reason alone. So, if a philosopher were to discover, through the natural powers of his intellect, that God has both Knower relation (God knowing) and Known relation (God as known by Himself), he would necessarily conclude that they’re not actually distinct due to Divine Simplicity. This I grant you.

But, since this same God had revealed, through supernatural means, that there’s an actual distinction between Him and His Knowledge of Himself, it’s no longer the case since then that we must necessarily conclude that these relations are actually one and the same.

This distinction, though, is not discoverable by human reason alone; it had to be supernaturally revealed by God Himself. So you have God-as-knowing-Himself relation and God-as-known-by-Himself relation that would have been thought to be one and the same if it were not for His Divine Revelation.

Why they are distinct, you may ask?

Because, according to this same Revelation, it wouldn’t make sense for the Knower to exist without the existence of the Known, which is distinct from the Knower relation by definition, and vice versa (just as the giver relation and the receiver relation differs by definition, yet one cannot exist without the other by definition). God Himself supernaturally revealed that He Himself regards these two relations, the Knower and the Known, to be different, similarly as to how we regard these two exact relations to be different by definition.

To add to the giver-receiver analogy, these two relations can exist in one person (eg a man treats himself with snacks every Saturday, the giver being the man giving himself food and the receiver being the same man eating the food).

Please ask questions so that I may revise or clarify what I have posted here.
 
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