Question about the papacy

  • Thread starter Thread starter timeandeternity
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
T

timeandeternity

Guest
Back in the 17th century, Allegri composed a Miserere that was reserved only for the pope and other important figures in the Vatican; the pope, in fact, decreed that anyone who leaked this Miserere would be excommunicated. My question is: if the pope could attach such an extreme consequence to a fairly trivial matter, why couldn’t he start telling us that unless we sing “Let Us Build the City of God” every Sunday at Mass, we’ll be excommunicated? I’m sorry if this sounds like a ridiculous question…
 
In theory, he could issue such a decree and we would be bound by it. Excommunications are not infallible decrees, and popes have occassionally been known to use them inappropriately. The pope has full and immediate authority over the whole Church, so if he mandated that we all sing the same song, then we would be bound to do so.
 
Our Pope has much power and authority to get things done. They use much of it behind the scenes in a way we will never know about – Like John Paul II helping to break down Communism.
 
But don’t excommunications have to do with “faith and morals?” Why aren’t they infallible? Which brings up another question: where exactly is the line drawn between things having to do with faith and morals, and things not having to do with them? Pretty much everything could be said to be related to faith and morals.
 
Sorry, Time and Eternity, but the situation you described sounds like somebody left out or changed facts and thus it lacks sufficient detail to be taken as true.

Therefore, I will not speculate as to whether the Pope made such a statement and the right or wrong of it.
 
timeandeternity said:
But don’t excommunications have to do with “faith and morals?” Why aren’t they infallible? Which brings up another question: where exactly is the line drawn between things having to do with faith and morals, and things not having to do with them? Pretty much everything could be said to be related to faith and morals.
Click to expand...
Technically, the pope can only declare something as infallible if it is contained, at least implicitly in the the Desposit of Faith (i.e. the Body of Public Revelation which ended with the death of the last Apostle in 100AD). Excommunications are disciplinary.
 
Thanks, Katholish. That made things a lot clearer.
Grateful Fred, the situation I was talking about (regarding the Miserere) was something I’ve been studying in my music history class. I also read about it a couple years ago in another history textbook. In addition, it was documented by W. A. Mozart, who managed to copy it down during a concert. (The public was allowed to go to the Vatican to hear the piece performed, but no more than that.) It’s more than certain that the Pope did make such a rule.
 
Thank you Time and Eternity for more detail. That motivated me to research.

According to Wikipedia it was Pope Urban VII around 1630. It was composed for exclusive use in Holy Week in the Sistine Chapel. To keep it there, apparently the excommunication penalty was attached. And apparently, no one was excommunicated.

More than 100 years later Mozart attended and memorized it and wrote it down. Once published, the ban was lifted and the then Pope called Mozart back to the Vatican and praised him for his musical genius. There is more to the story, this is just the highlight.

Here is an English translation from the 1662 Book of Common Prayer, and is used in Ivor Atkins’ English edition of the Miserere (published by Novello):

Have mercy upon me, O God, after Thy great goodness
According to the multitude of Thy mercies do away mine offences.
Wash me throughly from my wickedness: and cleanse me from my sin.
For I acknowledge my faults: and my sin is ever before me. Against Thee only have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that Thou mightest be justified in Thy saying, and clear when Thou art judged.

Behold, I was shapen in wickedness: and in sin hath my mother conceived me.
But lo, Thou requirest truth in the inward parts: and shalt make me to understand wisdom secretly. Thou shalt purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: Thou shalt wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Thou shalt make me hear of joy and gladness: that the bones which Thou hast broken may rejoice.
Turn Thy face from my sins: and put out all my misdeeds.

Make me a clean heart, O God: and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from Thy presence: and take not Thy Holy Spirit from me.
O give me the comfort of Thy help again: and stablish me with Thy free Spirit.
Then shall I teach Thy ways unto the wicked: and sinners shall be converted unto Thee.
Deliver me from blood-guiltiness, O God, Thou that art the God of my health: and my tongue shall sing of Thy righteousness.

Thou shalt open my lips, O Lord: and my mouth shall shew Thy praise.
For Thou desirest no sacrifice, else would I give it Thee: but Thou delightest not in burnt-offerings.
The sacrifice of God is a troubled spirit: a broken and contrite heart, O God, shalt Thou not despise.
O be favourable and gracious unto Sion: build Thou the walls of Jerusalem.
Then shalt Thou be pleased with the sacrifice of righteousness, with the burnt-offerings and oblations: then shall they offer young bullocks upon Thine altar.

Audio recordings are available.
 
More:

Of course, we cannot know what Pope Urban VII had in mind. But it seems as if he used the threat of excommunication as a way to honor the work and to preserve it for special use only on Wednesday and Friday of Holy Week and only in the Sistine Chapel.

Strong penalties usually result in strong compliance to a rule. We may LOVE a piece of music, but would we jeopardize our Salvation to share that special purpose music with others? The Pope simply wanted it to remain special.

Again, it does not seem that anyone was actually excommunicated.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top