Question about the Rich Man Passage

[hu324b]

He didn’t say he could not follow him because he’s rich - he said for his reward to be great in heaven sell all you have and follow me knowing full well the outcome. But no where does it condem him - please post that part of the passage its not in my bible.

Not everyone Christ came in contact with and healed or had a demon cast out followed him. - so your saying every person who came in contact with Christ and did not follow him to the cross is condemed and not wanted and I guess in hell - wow.

 

[hu324b]

You also just skip over the passage that says " if you want to be “perfect” sell all you have and follow me" as someone else has already pointed out and was ignored Which is what Jesus said to the rich man.

 

[BobCatholic]

He didn’t say he could not follow him because he’s rich - he said for his reward to be great in heaven sell all you have and follow me knowing full well the outcome. But no where does it condem him - please post that part of the passage its not in my bible.

Not everyone Christ came in contact with and healed or had a demon cast out followed him. - so your saying every person who came in contact with Christ and did not follow him to the cross is condemed and not wanted and I guess in hell - wow.

You also just skip over the passage that says " if you want to be “perfect” sell all you have and follow me" as someone else has already pointed out and was ignored Which is what Jesus said to the rich man.

Matthew 19:21

Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

So giving up all his wealth was a PREREQUISITE before he could even follow him.

At the minimum, Jesus saw it as an IMPEDIMENT for the guy to have money, to follow him.

At the worst, it was a rejection of him because he had money. “You don’t dare follow me if you have money.”

Either which way, you will notice something very important. There is a pattern in the NT.

When Jesus was talking about the Eucharist being his body and blood in John 6, people walked away because he told them to eat his flesh and drink his blood. They took him literally and when he did not back down, they walked away. He never ran after them saying “I was speaking metaphorically.” So he was speaking literally. The Church understood this through two centuries.

Jesus got in his face and reiterated his teaching. There was no metaphor here.

And the ONLY other part of the NT where someone walked away from Jesus due to a hard teaching was the rich young ruler. Same pattern. Jesus did not tell him “I was just speaking metaphorically, that you must not be attached to worldly goods. I didn’t mean it literally. You can keep your worldly goods, just don’t get attached to them.”

Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!” Luke 18:24 - he reiterated and reinforced his teaching.

Jesus was speaking literally. The pattern is very clear. The Great Teacher is very clear.

Therefore, Jesus did not like money and saw wealth as an impediment to following him.
THIS is why we have monks, nuns and much of clergy taking a vow of poverty. No money allowed for Christians, at least the true ones.

I’m even questioning whether I’m even truly following Jesus since he has rejected me anyway. I want to, and have tried my best, but it is not good enough. He does not want me. I can think that I’m following Jesus all I want, and believe all I want, but in reality, I am reprobate.

Because I did not take a vow of poverty, I’m a fake Christian, I’m a phony, no wonder Jesus does not want me.

 

[fhansen]

Oh, so since he was not allowed to follow Christ because of his wealth, he was NOT condemned? Please tell me how that works.

He went away sad, because he could not let go of the possessions that bound him to a lower level of perfection/justice/justification. He wouldn’t allow *himself *to follow Christ-and he knew it; he knew what his problem was because Christ identified it.

“I don’t want you unless you give up all your money.” was the clear message. Christ did not say as he was walking away sad “c’mon, I was just being metaphorical here”

The clear message about money is that it can make *us *say, “I don’t want You if it means depending on You, putting You ahead of all my money (my worldly means to status and security).”

Are you saying that it is possible to be saved without following Christ?

I’m saying that giving up everything to follow Him is perhaps the best-and most direct -way to perfection, but not the only way. Not everyone who has money and possessions is enslaved by them.

Christ hated money. That’s why he wants monks, nuns or clergy. “We gave up everything for you” types.

No, Christ hated what money often *does *to people. He didn’t spit on the denarius that was handed to Him in Matt 12, or instruct them to give it to the poor, but only to render it to Caesar as it was due him. Money is nothing but a tool for facilitating commerce, unless, like any other possession, it becomes our God. That’s what Jesus objected to.

I, a layman, am at best a second class citizen in the kingdom of God.

Ok Bob, God is unfair and untrustworthy but you prefer Him to satan and yourself anyway??

 

[BobCatholic]

He went away sad, because he could not let go of the possessions that bound him to a lower level of perfection/justice/justification. He wouldn’t allow *himself *to follow Christ-and he knew it; he knew what his problem was because Christ identified it.

No, the lower level of perfection/justice/justification was enough to not be allowed to be following Christ in the first place.

The clear message about money is that it can make *us *say, “I don’t want You if it means depending on You, putting You ahead of all my money (my worldly means to status and security).”

Maybe if God took care of people’s temporal needs, yeah, they’d be more likely to dump their dinero and follow him instead.

Ok Bob, God is unfair and untrustworthy but you prefer Him to satan and yourself anyway??

I don’t see myself as a choice in the equation.

It is either God or the devil.

I hate the devil, and don’t want to be with him. God runs rings around him, so I’m choosing him.

The problem is: I’m so imperfect, I can’t do it. I can’t do what it takes for God to love me and actually want me to be with him in heaven. My cooperation with his grace must be so completely useless that God just gave up on me.

In my view, I have a choice between a God who I can’t be with and a devil I don’t want to be with.

How is this a choice? My free will = 0

 

[fhansen]

No, the lower level of perfection/justice/justification was enough to not be allowed to be following Christ in the first place.

Maybe if God took care of people’s temporal needs, yeah, they’d be more likely to dump their dinero and follow him instead.

I don’t see myself as a choice in the equation.

It is either God or the devil.

I hate the devil, and don’t want to be with him. God runs rings around him, so I’m choosing him.

The problem is: I’m so imperfect, I can’t do it. I can’t do what it takes for God to love me and actually want me to be with him in heaven. My cooperation with his grace must be so completely useless that God just gave up on me.

In my view, I have a choice between a God who I can’t be with and a devil I don’t want to be with.

How is this a choice? My free will = 0

Alright Bob. I haven’t walked in your shoes -& I won’t try to do anymore encouraging other than to say that God is a choice, a good one, the right one, but the promise of being with Him in a manner that will totally satisfied us won’t be fully realized in this life. I hope and pray you at least receive more of it, of that union, in the here now in any case.

 

[BobCatholic]

Alright Bob. I haven’t walked in your shoes -& I won’t try to do anymore encouraging other than to say that God is a choice, a good one, the right one, but the promise of being with Him in a manner that will totally satisfied us won’t be fully realized in this life. I hope and pray you at least receive more of it, of that union, in the here now in any case.

Right now I see the choice between a God I can’t be with because I’m rejected by him, and a devil I don’t want to be with, because I hate him. I choose him, and get rejected, so how does choosing God help if he doesn’t want me?

Thanks for your prayers.

 

[fhansen]

Right now I see the choice between a God I can’t be with because I’m rejected by him, and a devil I don’t want to be with, because I hate him. I choose him, and get rejected, so how does choosing God help if he doesn’t want me?

Thanks for your prayers.

He does want you-He’s already accepted you. But you’re setting standards that deny that, demanding that He dances to your tune, aren’t you? Either way warm fuzzy consolations or confirmations aren’t necessarily the state of affairs in this life. We walk by faith; we’re to just "Be still, and know know that He is God.’, to paraphrase Ps 46:10

 

[BobCatholic]

He does want you-He’s already accepted you.

Then why won’t he talk to me?

But you’re setting standards that deny that, demanding that He dances to your tune, aren’t you?

What standards?

How am I supposed to follow Christ’s standards as set forth for the rich young ruler (i.e. don’t you dare have any money sonny!) if I am a layman, married and have a son with a mental disease to take care of?

How am I supposed to follow Christ’s and his father’s command to be perfect if he won’t help me be perfect?

It is God who sets the impossible standards, not me. God is unobtainable.

Either way warm fuzzy consolations or confirmations aren’t necessarily the state of affairs in this life.

If I’m going through the dark night of the senses, that would explain why God doesn’t want to talk to me. BUT - very important - this is PRECEDED by fuzzy consolations and confirmations. I NEVER GOT THAT.

So either God has rejected me or He is not following his rules about the dark night of the senses!!!

We walk by faith; we’re to just "Be still, and know know that He is God.’, to paraphrase Ps 46:10

We walk by faith, faith is a seventh sense which helps us see.

We don’t believe in blind faith, that’s protestantism’s way of interpreting that verse.

In addition, faith is a gift from God, if God doesn’t increase my faith, game over, it ain’t increasing. I can’t take a gift and make it bigger, it grows through God granting the increase.

Psalm 46 is interesting, another impossible command for me, as one of the 50 million imperfections I have is that I have ADHD, so silent prayer is impossible for me. I’d flunk Carthusian 101 in a heartbeat.

 

[fhansen]

Then why won’t he talk to me?

What standards?

Your standards, that God must talk to you in the way you want. Or that He must hand out warm fuzzies, etc.

How am I supposed to follow Christ’s standards as set forth for the rich young ruler (i.e. don’t you dare have any money sonny!) if I am a layman, married and have a son with a mental disease to take care of?

How am I supposed to follow Christ’s and his father’s command to be perfect if he won’t help me be perfect?

It is God who sets the impossible standards, not me. God is unobtainable.

Not so,if you listen to God as He speaks through the Church.

If I’m going through the dark night of the senses, that would explain why God doesn’t want to talk to me. BUT - very important - this is PRECEDED by fuzzy consolations and confirmations. I NEVER GOT THAT.

So either God has rejected me or He is not following his rules about the dark night of the senses!!!

We walk by faith, faith is a seventh sense which helps us see.

We don’t believe in blind faith, that’s protestantism’s way of interpreting that verse.

In addition, faith is a gift from God, if God doesn’t increase my faith, game over, it ain’t increasing. I can’t take a gift and make it bigger, it grows through God granting the increase.

It takes our cooperation. He won’t bowl us over with it.

Psalm 46 is interesting, another impossible command for me, as one of the 50 million imperfections I have is that I have ADHD, so silent prayer is impossible for me. I’d flunk Carthusian 101 in a heartbeat.

Ok Bob-maybe you’re just one of the unique people whom God can’t quite reach after all-too much of a challenge for Him. Or maybe you can be active-and still know that He is God, the God who loves all and wants none to perish. Listen to the Church, not your interpretation of some particular passage of the bible. THAT would be Protestantism.

 

[BobCatholic]

Your standards, that God must talk to you in the way you want. Or that He must hand out warm fuzzies, etc.

Yeah, I’d like God to talk to me in a way I understand.

And the warm fuzzies are how God NORMALLY does dark night of the senses beginnings. He didn’t do that to me. But he does that to others.

So either I’m NOT going through the dark night of the senses since the pattern is broken and I’m rejected by God
OR
God is capricious and arbitrary and a respecter of persons (i.e. he treats people unequally).

I’m voting for the former, not the latter.

Not so,if you listen to God as He speaks through the Church.

I wasn’t aware that the Church was that powerful to overrule Christ’s command. Can you please cite me a Catechism citation that says we laity don’t have to give up our possessions to follow Christ?

It takes our cooperation. He won’t bowl us over with it.

And how do I know I’m cooperating good enough? God won’t talk to me and give me a status update or any encouraging or anything nice like that.

Ok Bob-maybe you’re just one of the unique people whom God can’t quite reach after all-too much of a challenge for Him. Or maybe you can be active-and still know that He is God, the God who loves all and wants none to perish. Listen to the Church, not your interpretation of some particular passage of the bible. THAT would be Protestantism.

God CAN reach me. He chooses not to.

It is me who is the weakest link, and God will say “goodbye” to me. I’m so horrible God does not want me.

 

[rinnie]

The point of the story, is that it is impossible to enter the Kingdom of God by yourself. That it’s is only possible with God’s help !

And when you put your money ahead of GOD, money becomes your God.

 

[fhansen]

Yeah, I’d like God to talk to me in a way I understand.

And the warm fuzzies are how God NORMALLY does dark night of the senses beginnings. He didn’t do that to me. But he does that to others.

A rare few, whose experiences you’ve decided to let be your standard.

I wasn’t aware that the Church was that powerful to overrule Christ’s command. Can you please cite me a Catechism citation that says we laity don’t have to give up our possessions to follow Christ?

I’ll give you excerpts from the primary basis for Catholic social teachings, the encyclical Rerum Novarum:

**13. That right to property, therefore, which has been proved to belong naturally to individual persons, must in like wise belong to a man in his capacity of head of a family; nay, that right is all the stronger in proportion as the human person receives a wider extension in the family group. It is a most sacred law of nature that a father should provide food and all necessaries for those whom he has begotten; and, similarly, it is natural that he should wish that his children, who carry on, so to speak, and continue his personality, should be by him provided with all that is needful to enable them to keep themselves decently from want and misery amid the uncertainties of this mortal life. Now, in no other way can a father effect this except by the ownership of productive property, which he can transmit to his children by inheritance.

1. The great truth which we learn from nature herself is also the grand Christian dogma on which religion rests as on its foundation - that, when we have given up this present life, then shall we really begin to live. God has not created us for the perishable and transitory things of earth, but for things heavenly and everlasting; He has given us this world as a place of exile, and not as our abiding place. As for riches and the other things which men call good and desirable, whether we have them in abundance, or are lacking in them-so far as eternal happiness is concerned - it makes no difference; the only important thing is to use them aright.
2. Private ownership, as we have seen, is the natural right of man, and to exercise that right, especially as members of society, is not only lawful, but absolutely necessary. “It is lawful,” says St. Thomas Aquinas, “for a man to hold private property; and it is also necessary for the carrying on of human existence.”" But if the question be asked: How must one’s possessions be used? - the Church replies without hesitation in the words of the same holy Doctor: "Man should not consider his material possessions as his own, but as common to all, so as to share them without hesitation when others are in need.

Whoever has received from the divine bounty a large share of temporal blessings, whether they be external and material, or gifts of the mind, has received them for the purpose of using them for the perfecting of his own nature, and, at the same time, that he may employ them, as the steward of God’s providence, for the benefit of others. “He that hath a talent,” said St. Gregory the Great, “let him see that he hide it not; he that hath abundance, let him quicken himself to mercy and generosity; he that hath art and skill, let him do his best to share the use and the utility hereof with his neighbor.”(17)**

 

[BobCatholic]

A rare few, whose experiences you’ve decided to let be your standard.

Their experiences are a sign of God’s standard. This is how God does things.

But for some reason he won’t uphold his standard with me.

It is a most sacred law of nature that a father should provide food and all necessaries for those whom he has begotten;

but it is not any kind of law, not even a hint of a law, that God will provide for someone who has children, nor anyone in that matter.

God only cares about the spiritual, and not the temporal.

should be by him provided with all that is needful to enable them to keep themselves decently from want and misery amid the uncertainties of this mortal life.

And God is exempt from this law.

• that, when we have given up this present life, then shall we really begin to live.

Yes, I’d like to do that, but God forbids that. Suicide is immoral.

He has given us this world as a place of exile,

because we are temporally held responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

1. Private ownership, as we have seen, is the natural right of man, and to exercise that right, especially as members of society, is not only lawful, but absolutely necessary.

but not to get into heaven, wealth is an impediment to following Christ and getting into heaven.

"Man should not consider his material possessions as his own, but as common to all, so as to share them without hesitation when others are in need.

So private property does not exist, it is communal. Therefore, “thou shalt not steal” commandment is null and void.

Whoever has received from the divine bounty a large share of temporal blessings, whether they be external and material, or gifts of the mind, has received them for the purpose of using them for the perfecting of his own nature, and, at the same time, that he may employ them, as the steward of God’s providence, for the benefit of others.

And THIS is why I want to get rich. God does not understand this.

God only gives the cross, nothing else. God does not care about the temporal, just the spiritual only.

Since I’m not allowed to even keep a steady job, much less become rich, there is no way to perfect my own nature.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

BobCatholic:

but it is not any kind of law, not even a hint of a law, that God will provide for someone who has children, nor anyone in that matter.

God only cares about the spiritual, and not the temporal.

That isn’t what Jesus said. He said to not care about what to wear and what to eat, as our Father in Heaven knows what we need. So it is absolutely true that God cares about temporal concerns. I know many people that have had temporal worries taken care of by God.

Sometimes what our problem is, is a failure to remember. God takes care of some temporal matters for us and ok, yeah, but now I have other things too. So I get focused on all of the things that haven’t been handled yet.

I really am convinced that if you seriously applied yourself to remembering, you could dredge up some things God did for you, that you had quite forgotten. But try not to forget. In fact the Psalms say that we should keep these memories alive within ourselves.

Personally, God has done some amazing temporal things for me. Things that I should never forget, yet I do! I have to keep reminding myself. That’s how forgetful we as weak humans are.

 

[BobCatholic]

That isn’t what Jesus said. He said to not care about what to wear and what to eat, as our Father in Heaven knows what we need. So it is absolutely true that God cares about temporal concerns. I know many people that have had temporal worries taken care of by God.

Then if he cared, why does he deny prayer requests?

Is steady employment evil?
Is healing my son of his mental disease something evil?
Is being closer to God evil?

I’ve asked for those and more and didn’t get them, clearly these things must be evil.

Anything outside of the will of God is evil then. Or God does not care about temporal things. Which one do you choose?

Or maybe God doesn’t care about ME.

Yes, God knows what we need, and says no to them. Clearly he doesn’t care about the temporal. God ONLY cares about the spiritual.

I really am convinced that if you seriously applied yourself to remembering, you could dredge up some things God did for you, that you had quite forgotten. But try not to forget. In fact the Psalms say that we should keep these memories alive within ourselves.

I do remember. I am grateful for those things and I tell him.

But since God is not obligated in any way shape or form to do these temporal things, I understand it is mercy, not something promised.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Then if he cared, why does he deny prayer requests?

Or maybe God doesn’t care about ME.

Who can say? But it is a mistake to suppose God doesn’t care. The Apostles on the boat that was getting swamped out in the lake, woke Jesus with the same complaint. Wake Jesus, He’ll calm the storm.

 

[SnoopSword]

Then why does God do it this way instead of just fixing the bugs in the buggy software known as humanity? Why punish people for being imperfect when God created us imperfect?

Jesus came in the FLESH for that very reason - to fix the software called the Human that was STOLEN from Him and then corrupted with VIRUSES (great pun and great analogy to hold onto). Jesus did NOT come to fulfill some Levitical Law, or to be a king of jews which was the, MOCKING him BUT SOMEHOW IN RECENT YEARS people are taking the mocking of Jesus being king serious like he was really supposed to live up to a King David (when there wasnt even ‘jews’ in those days, but rather Judahites which were long gone by the tome Jesus came. All those heresies are modern Judeo-American mockeries of Christ.

NOTE: Always remember Jesus flesh came from Mary. Her SINLESS flesh was without spot or blemish or Jesus could not have been made in her due to operating system incompatibilities. This is why it’s CRITICAL that you believe in the Immaculate conception, because if you don’t, you technically DENY Jesus as your Messiah (because he could not be a candidate). This is why Mary technically is a co-redeemer in truth, but there isnt an outright requirement to understand all this stuff.

NOTE 2: And NO, Mary did NOT have further children and was forever a Virgin. Everyone agrees with this - EVEN Luther and Calvin believe this. The reason why this tidbit is important is because she could NOT have been bodily assumed to heaven if she took in a ‘computer Virus’ from an outside source. (If she wasnt bodily assumed, she could NOT come down through history and visit us and give us public miracles. Jesus COULD do it, but that would count as his second coming and take him away from the right hand of the Father.)

The Muslims are so OCD over Mary being sinless that they say she was fed each day fruits from heaven by angels while she was concencrated at the temple. They have a reason for saying this because many believe the whole earth is corrupt with ‘viruses’. All living matter essentially… which is why we’re under a certain dominion under Satan. Supposedly the only unaltered pure creation of God is the sun… thats just what I heard a few times. The light and dark don’t mix. Regardless of what happens, we need a software copy of Jesus soul to get into heaven. Even Mary needed this because she’s outside the Godhead. Remember our body and soul is created with various components, flesh, spirit, blood, and many energies and spirits - much of which is in the unseen realm not visible to our eyes. Baptism permenantly alters much of these things but that is just a start.

 

[SnoopSword]

Who can say? But it is a mistake to suppose God doesn’t care. The Apostles on the boat that was getting swamped out in the lake, woke Jesus with the same complaint. Wake Jesus, He’ll calm the storm.

If God has him in Church taking communion, then God has given him more than 99% of people and he’ll realize that in the afterlife.

 

[BobCatholic]

Who can say? But it is a mistake to suppose God doesn’t care. The Apostles on the boat that was getting swamped out in the lake, woke Jesus with the same complaint. Wake Jesus, He’ll calm the storm.

OK, how do I wake Jesus?

Should I go to an adoration chapel and shake the monstrance?

No, seriously, how do I do it?

Jesus came in the FLESH for that very reason - to fix the software called the Human that was STOLEN from Him and then corrupted with VIRUSES (great pun and great analogy to hold onto).

OK, then why aren’t we back in the Garden of Eden with one rule like it was in the beginning? Why didn’t Christ’s sacrifice make us perfect here on this planet so the bugs are fixed in the software and the system rebooted to the original state?

NOTE: Always remember Jesus flesh came from Mary. Her SINLESS flesh was without spot or blemish or Jesus could not have been made in her due to operating system incompatibilities.

Precisely! So why didn’t God create Adam and Eve (and the rest of us) perfect like that so there are no OS incompatibilities?

This is why it’s CRITICAL that you believe in the Immaculate conception, because if you don’

I don’t deny that dogma. I’ve said Mary is perfect.

NOTE 2: And NO, Mary did NOT have further children and was forever a Virgin.

I know.