Moscati:
Revelation 8:3-4: “And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.” --Obviously, the saints are praying for something. It doesn’t seem like much of a leap to guess that it’s us.
****This is an angel, not a saint (I am still waiting for an explanation on another thread about how angels became saints, especially since the Scriptures make a distinction between the two). Secondly, there is no mention of where the prayers of the saints came from. The angel was given incense to offer with the prayers on the altar. I suppose Psalms 141:2 could apply to the incense (“
Let my prayer be counted as incense before thee, and the lifting up of my hands as an evening sacrifice!” RSV emphasis mine).
Spencerian:
Revelation 5:8 specifically describes saints in heaven, offering to God bowls of prayers gathered from Earth. First, the Bible catagorically shows here that the saints (or “holy ones” in other translations) are not only living in heaven, but hear prayers, for what could they give if they could not hear anything?
The bowls of incense were offered by the
elders (no mention of who they are, and there are only 24 of them), and what can we possibly offer to God that He has not given to us? You are assuming these are saints, and they are offering prayers that had been prayed to them. I don’t see that. It seems to me just as likely (in fact, more than likely from my perspective) that these elders were entrusted with the bowls, so that they could offer them at this point in time. As far as the text itself goes, this explanation is just as valid as the other. As far as all of Scripture, I would say this is a much more likely possibility.
Before answering questions about the rosary, give your friend an open question: “Where in the Bible does it say that everything you need to know to be a Christian is written in the Bible?” There is are no such passages.
"All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. " (2 Tim 3:16-17 RSV) If the Scriptures are able to teach, reprove, correct and train in righteousness in such a way that the man of God may be completey equipped for every good work, doesn’t that sound like the Scriptures contain everything we need to know to be a Christian?
If your friend is a trinitarian Protestant, challenge him to find “Trinity” in the Bible. The word is not there, but the concept is there in both old and new Testaments (Genesis adds: “Let Us make man in Our image…”; New Testament shows many examples in Christ’s words and actions of the Father and Holy Spirit).
Why would you use a Jehovah’s Witness argument (show me the word ‘Trinity’ in the Bible)? I don’t understand your reasoning here, since you should agree that God is three person in one God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). So why argue about something you both agree on?
A rosary is simply a set of beads that aid a person in prayer. Here’s the key: the prayers done with rosary in hand are directly based on verses from the Bible. We aren’t praying to a rosary. A rosary is a tool, nothing more, that helps one concentrate.
Where is the verse that reads, “Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death”? Or is this something that Jesus taught that isn’t in Scripture? (Would He have called it a ‘Hail Mary’ or a ‘Hail Mom’?)
So why would his shortened version of the Bible, modified and used by a tradition defined by one man, be any more valid than a person merely reciting Scriptural prayer using a set of beads as a mnemonic? Where in the Bible did it say that any one man can modify the Scriptures on his own authority?
And what does this have to do with the rosary or prayers to the “sleeping” saints? This is a red herring! You’re trying to drag the focus off the topic at hand. I will quickly point out that the canon was not dogmatically defined until the Council of Trent in 1545, and that prior to that time many people believed as Jerome, that the dueterocanonical books were OK for reading in the Church and for edification, but not to be used to determine doctrine.
Tantum ergo:
Where in Scripture does it say, “Lo and when ye dieth you sleep, just as a mortal sleepeth, and while ye are with God and He is totally aware of everything, ye will just be snoring away and lack awareness of all things.”
I would remind you of the parable of the good shepherd. He left the 99 sheep to go search the one lost. When he found it, he carried it home (Luke 15:4-7). Look at verse 6 - “And when he comes home, **he calls **together his friends and his neighbors,
saying to them, `Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost.’” (RSV emphasis mine). If you read on, you’ll notice the same thing with the woman and the lost coin. People didn’t know about it UNTIL they were told (by the shepherd or the woman in the parables, but by God in heaven to the saints). Finally, I would ask where it says in Scripture that the saints that are asleep in Christ CAN hear your prayers and, based on those prayers, make intercession for you? I do not doubt that saints in heaven intercede for us on earth, but I beleive it is in the same way we pray for believers in other countries.
