Question about Traditional Divine Office

[ialsop]

So, are the traditional divine office hours only on a one week scheadual, disregarding the church year?

Thats what this says. traditio.com/off.htm

BUT it seems so odd. maybe Im just only used to the proper of saints, seasons, fests, ect…but if this is the case, I will try to pray the traditional ones. After I learn latin…

Because I have heard that the contemporary liturgy of the hours is simpler, but really, the traditional looks so much simpler, even if each hour is so much longer.

 

[porthos11]

So, are the traditional divine office hours only on a one week scheadual, disregarding the church year?

Thats what this says. traditio.com/off.htm

BUT it seems so odd. maybe Im just only used to the proper of saints, seasons, fests, ect…but if this is the case, I will try to pray the traditional ones. After I learn latin…

Because I have heard that the contemporary liturgy of the hours is simpler, but really, the traditional looks so much simpler, even if each hour is so much longer.

No, there is a Proper of Saints and Proper of Seasons in the traditional breviary. Why would you think otherwise?

Second, the only approved traditional Roman Breviary is that of 1961.

And lastly, that’s a sedevacantist site.

 

[OraLabora]

So, are the traditional divine office hours only on a one week scheadual, disregarding the church year?

Thats what this says. traditio.com/off.htm

BUT it seems so odd. maybe Im just only used to the proper of saints, seasons, fests, ect…but if this is the case, I will try to pray the traditional ones. After I learn latin…

Because I have heard that the contemporary liturgy of the hours is simpler, but really, the traditional looks so much simpler, even if each hour is so much longer.

I assume by “traditional” you mean the pre-Vatican II Divine Office, because the pre-Conciliar Office comes in two major forms: the Roman Office (as prayed by secular diocesan clergy) which isn’t really traditional as it only dates to 1910, and the Monastic which is traditional because it dates back to St Benedict’s time (6th century). Both are very similar in structure but very different in the psalm arrangement, though the Monastic has a few extra elements added in. The liturgical year and classes of feast will be similar but the calendar different.

That said, the pre-Vatican II Office is more difficult. The liturgical year is more complex, there are more classes of feast (albeit somewhat simplified by 1960) and although nominally the psalmody is on a one-week cycle, the reality is that one is caught up much more in the festival psalter so as a result it really isn’t truly a one-week cycle as the festive psalms come up frequently, often more than once a week. There are so many feasts in the old calendar that monks joke that they have the strongest devotion to St. Feria (the fictitious saint of “ordinary” days). It becomes an anomaly then, that one is happier at ordinary days because they’re easier, and they come up so infrequently as to almost be something more special than the over-used festival psalter.

The new LOTH has the advantage of being designed for busy people and that gives the happy result that it is also especially suited to the laity. I have some experience praying the Monastic Offices; the traditional one still exists in post-Vatican II form, and there’s a modern one that is also on a one-week psalmody cycle, which would be comparable to the 1960 Roman Breviary in length (150 psalms per week). For busy laity, the LOTH is much easier. Moreover the LOTH isn’t as big a break with tradition as many think. There are some optional elements, in addition to the positioning of certain psalms, that do represent continuity with tradition (an example is the option to use Psalms 4, 90 and 133 at Compline every night, something that is not the case with the 1910+ Roman Breviary).

 

[ialsop]

I assume by “traditional” you mean the pre-Vatican II Divine Office, because the pre-Conciliar Office comes in two major forms: the Roman Office (as prayed by secular diocesan clergy) which isn’t really traditional as it only dates to 1910, and the Monastic which is traditional because it dates back to St Benedict’s time (6th century). Both are very similar in structure but very different in the psalm arrangement, though the Monastic has a few extra elements added in. The liturgical year and classes of feast will be similar but the calendar different.

That said, the pre-Vatican II Office is more difficult. The liturgical year is more complex, there are more classes of feast (albeit somewhat simplified by 1960) and although nominally the psalmody is on a one-week cycle, the reality is that one is caught up much more in the festival psalter so as a result it really isn’t truly a one-week cycle as the festive psalms come up frequently, often more than once a week. There are so many feasts in the old calendar that monks joke that they have the strongest devotion to St. Feria (the fictitious saint of “ordinary” days). It becomes an anomaly then, that one is happier at ordinary days because they’re easier, and they come up so infrequently as to almost be something more special than the over-used festival psalter.

The new LOTH has the advantage of being designed for busy people and that gives the happy result that it is also especially suited to the laity. I have some experience praying the Monastic Offices; the traditional one still exists in post-Vatican II form, and there’s a modern one that is also on a one-week psalmody cycle, which would be comparable to the 1960 Roman Breviary in length (150 psalms per week). For busy laity, the LOTH is much easier. Moreover the LOTH isn’t as big a break with tradition as many think. There are some optional elements, in addition to the positioning of certain psalms, that do represent continuity with tradition (an example is the option to use Psalms 4, 90 and 133 at Compline every night, something that is not the case with the 1910+ Roman Breviary).

So, I am using Shorter Christian Prayer.
And I also am using Compline hour, with a printed out sheet with the psalms 4, 90, and 133. but I am using the format of the hours in the link I mentioned when it comes to compline. It is just like LOTH but more complex. But I enjoy the more complex, and I have plenty of time before I go to bed.
So am I allowed to do that?

Second, I dont have a book bigger than Shorter Christian Prayer, and I dont have access to internet in the middle of the night. (Parent’s time restrictions, if you must know…)
So, would I be allowed to use the matins on the link I showed for each day of the week? I know that that is not the total pre-V2 Matin scheduled, but it is my only option. Would I be allowed to do that?

And Im not concerned with the other hours, I dont do them. i dont have time. Or the books.

And yes, I know its a sedevacantist site. However, I often go through those sites because they have beautiful devotions. I mean, the site defeatmodernism.com is horribly anti-catholic and heretical, but it has a very very beautiful collection of traditional catholic prayers I am trying to learn.

 

[SilverAvenger]

Well, I recomend you to use this website: divinumofficium.com/

It has the tradictional monastic Office, in both english and latin. It has a few glitches, but in essence, it works fine and might help you, since you don’t own a book.

Personaly, I started using it because I couldn’t figure out where the Compline texts for Saturday were in the book!

 

[ialsop]

Well, I recomend you to use this website: divinumofficium.com/

It has the tradictional monastic Office, in both english and latin. It has a few glitches, but in essence, it works fine and might help you, since you don’t own a book.

Personaly, I started using it because I couldn’t figure out where the Compline texts for Saturday were in the book!

Yes, but I dont ave internet access at the times for Matins.

 

[TimothyH]

…so as a result it really isn’t truly a one-week cycle as the festive psalms come up frequently, often more than once a week. There are so many feasts in the old calendar that monks joke that they have the strongest devotion to St. Feria (the fictitious saint of “ordinary” days). It becomes an anomaly then, that one is happier at ordinary days because they’re easier, and they come up so infrequently as to almost be something more special than the over-used festival psalter.

Yeah.

Bless the Lord, all you works of the Lord…

I love the saints but man, doing that day after day is a little tiring and found myself excited at the thought of a normal Tuesday morning of the third week. I can’t imagine doing it on a one week cycle.

-Tim-

 

[porthos11]

Yeah.

Bless the Lord, all you works of the Lord…

I love the saints but man, doing that day after day is a little tiring and found myself excited at the thought of a normal Tuesday morning of the third week. I can’t imagine doing it on a one week cycle.

-Tim-

You’re not doing it for all saints in the calendar, are you? Generally speaking, and with only a few exceptions, Memorials in the Liturgy of the Hours use the weekday Psalms, not those of Sunday Week I.

 

[TimothyH]

You’re not doing it for all saints in the calendar, are you? Generally speaking, and with only a few exceptions, Memorials in the Liturgy of the Hours use the weekday Psalms, not those of Sunday Week I.

What about morning prayer?

Common of the Apostles, common of several martyrs, common of one martyr, common of Doctors of the Church, common of virgins, etc. all say “Psalms and canticle from Sunday, Week 1, 707” in my book.

Or am I reading it wrong? I probably should not have taken the thread off topic.

-Tim-

 

[ialsop]

ALSO, is it ok to not do compline right before bed, but instead back to back with Vespers, around 7pm?

I ask because I am in a habit of praying a rosary immediately before going to sleep, and Id like to continue doing that.

 

[Magdalen2013]

What about morning prayer?

Common of the Apostles, common of several martyrs, common of one martyr, common of Doctors of the Church, common of virgins, etc. all say “Psalms and canticle from Sunday, Week 1, 707” in my book.

Or am I reading it wrong? I probably should not have taken the thread off topic.

-Tim-

Tim – are you using the one volume “Christian Prayer?” If so, on some Saints days, you use the antiphons from the appropriate commons with the Psalms of the weekday. (At least, that’s how my St. Joseph’s guide lists it.)

If I’m wrong in interpreting the Guide, PLEASE someone tell me!

 

[OraLabora]

What about morning prayer?

Common of the Apostles, common of several martyrs, common of one martyr, common of Doctors of the Church, common of virgins, etc. all say “Psalms and canticle from Sunday, Week 1, 707” in my book.

Or am I reading it wrong? I probably should not have taken the thread off topic.

-Tim-

You’re overdoing it. For optional memorials and memorials you simply use the psalms of the day, with a few exceptions when there are proper antiphons, for which you use the festive psalms. But the vast majority use the psalms of the day, not those of the Commons. It should all be in the General Instructions.

The festive psalms (aka psalms of Sunday I Lauds), are normally used for feasts and solemnities only (or those rare memorials with proper antiphons)

 

[OraLabora]

Tim – are you using the one volume “Christian Prayer?” If so, on some Saints days, you use the antiphons from the appropriate commons with the Psalms of the weekday. (At least, that’s how my St. Joseph’s guide lists it.)

If I’m wrong in interpreting the Guide, PLEASE someone tell me!

For memorials, unless they have proper antiphons, you use the antiphons and the psalms of the weekday. For the Gospel Canticle, you use the proper antiphon if there is one, if not you can use either the antiphon from the commons, or the antiphon of the day.

One generally doesn’t use the psalm, OT and NT antiphons from the commons for memorials.

This is the relevant section for memorials in the General Instructions:

1. In the office of readings, at morning prayer, and at evening prayer:

a. the psalms and their antiphons are taken from the current week and day, unless there are proper antiphons or proper psalms, which is indicated as the case occurs;

b. the antiphon at the invitatory, the hymn, the short reading, the antiphons at the Canticles of Zechariah and of Mary, and the intercessions must be those of the saint if these are given in the proper; otherwise, they are taken either from the common or from the current week and day;

c. the concluding prayer from the office of the saint is to be said;

d. in the office of readings, the Scripture reading with its responsory is from the current cycle. The second reading is about the saint, with a proper responsory or one taken from the common; if there is no proper reading, the patristic reading for the day is used. The Te Deum is not said.

1. At daytime prayer and night prayer, all is from the weekday and nothing is from the office of the saint.

 

[porthos11]

What about morning prayer?

Common of the Apostles, common of several martyrs, common of one martyr, common of Doctors of the Church, common of virgins, etc. all say “Psalms and canticle from Sunday, Week 1, 707” in my book.

Or am I reading it wrong? I probably should not have taken the thread off topic.

-Tim-

The texts in the Commons are there for use when prescribed, but which texts are prescribed for any given day are governed by the rubrics in the Ordinary.

On p. 690 of Christian Prayer, we have these rubrics for Morning Prayer (boldface mine):

For Solemnities and Feasts, the psalms and canticle are taken from the first Sunday of the Psalter, the antiphons from the Proper of Saints or Commons.

For the memorials of saints, the psalms, canticle and antiphons are taken from the current week of the Psalter, unless there are proper psalms and antiphons.

This means you take the rank of the day into consideration, and most saints are observed as Memorials. This means, with a few exceptions (e.g. St. Martin of Tours), you say the Psalms and antiphons of the weekday, not Sunday Week I.

A similar set of rubrics is stated on pp. 694-695 for Evening Prayer.

You only use the Psalms, Canticle and Antiphon from the Common only if (1) it’s a Feast or Solemnity, and (2) there are not in the Proper of Saints.

This is why I always say, the Ordinary is your friend.

 

[TimothyH]

I admit to being very confused and will have to read the past few posts very slowly when I am more awake. Too much turkey tryptophan

That you all would be so willing to explain it to me means more to me than you know and I am so grateful for it.

Apologies to the OP for derailing the thread.

-Tim-

 

[OraLabora]

ALSO, is it ok to not do compline right before bed, but instead back to back with Vespers, around 7pm?

I ask because I am in a habit of praying a rosary immediately before going to sleep, and Id like to continue doing that.

If it’s any help, in monasteries Compline is not always “just before bed”. But it is before “grand silence”. At the abbey I’m associated with as an oblate, Compline is 7:45 pm and lasts about 20 minutes, but most monks spend quiet time in their cells praying, reading, doing correspondence, etc. and then finally retire around 9 pm which gives them 8 hours sleep before Vigils at 5 am.

So I would say yes, it’s OK to do as you do. Vespers at the abbey is normally 5 pm, but on Thursdays it’s at 7 pm as it’s their recreation day where they go for walks, bike rides, snowshoeing, cross-country skiing, etc. Since Vespers is about 35-40 minutes long, Compline is immediately after.

My own practice is either at around 8:15 pm in my small oratory, but sometimes I read Compline at bed time, at around 9:30 pm. We usually eat dinner fairly late (7-7:30 pm) so Compline precedes what I consider “rest” time (relaxation and bed).

 

[Magdalen2013]

Thanks for the clarification – I’ve only been doing the Office for about a year. I really enjoy it.

I’m usually doing Morning, Evening and Night Prayer regularly. On days when I have more time I do at least one Hour from Daytime Prayer.

 

[SilverAvenger]

Yes, but I dont ave internet access at the times for Matins.

Well, if you go through the “cellphone” link in the website, there are a couple of arrows next to the date. Just click it and it’ll display the next day. You could take a screenshot and use it at matins, if possible.

 

[TimothyH]

So, are the traditional divine office hours only on a one week scheadual, disregarding the church year?

Thats what this says. traditio.com/off.htm

BUT it seems so odd. maybe Im just only used to the proper of saints, seasons, fests, ect…but if this is the case, I will try to pray the traditional ones. After I learn latin…

Because I have heard that the contemporary liturgy of the hours is simpler, but really, the traditional looks so much simpler, even if each hour is so much longer.

It occurs to me that website which hosts “The Protestant-Masonic-Pagan Nature of the Novus Ordo Service” should not be relied upon for accurate information.

-Tim-

 

[ialsop]

It occurs to me that website which hosts “The Protestant-Masonic-Pagan Nature of the Novus Ordo Service” should not be relied upon for accurate information.

-Tim-

Yes, well…good point.