Question about Transubstantiation

[SIA]

there are Catholic/Protestant discussions that are easy and there are those that are hard. Transubstantiation should be easy between those that accept the Real Presence. To you, it is not needed, because you already accept it. In fact, it is that lack of need that causes the issues with it.

How do you discuss the Real Presence with those who deny it?

Well, most Protestants that believe the communion celebration to be just symbolic also believe that Jesus had biological brothers and sisters because Scripture speaks to this. My interjection to them at this point is that Scripture also speaks in many verses that the bread and wine which Jesus passed amogst his disciples is his flesh and blood. Scripture also tells us that the bread which comes from Heaven is Jesus’ flesh and it also tells us that those who eat his flesh and drink his blood shall have everlasting life. Jesus goes on yet again to tell us that when we eat his flesh and drink his blood, he is in us and we are in him. Way way too much solid Scriptural evidence to build a symbol argument. The bread and wine are in fact the body blood soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. Why? Because he is right there. Jesus also says that where two or more are gathered in my name, there I will be. Lots of Scripture to support the Real Presence.

 

[ralphinal]

Well, most Protestants that believe the communion celebration to be just symbolic also believe that Jesus had biological brothers and sisters because Scripture speaks to this. My interjection to them at this point is that Scripture also speaks in many verses that the bread and wine which Jesus passed amogst his disciples is his flesh and blood. Scripture also tells us that the bread which comes from Heaven is Jesus’ flesh and it also tells us that those who eat his flesh and drink his blood shall have everlasting life. Jesus goes on yet again to tell us that when we eat his flesh and drink his blood, he is in us and we are in him. Way way too much solid Scriptural evidence to build a symbol argument. The bread and wine are in fact the body blood soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. Why? Because he is right there. Jesus also says that where two or more are gathered in my name, there I will be. Lots of Scripture to support the Real Presence.

Cool. I agree with you. I may be off, but outside of the Trinity/Divinity of Christ, the Real Presence may be the most supported non-explicit dogma.

 

[SIA]

Cool. I agree with you. I may be off, but outside of the Trinity/Divinity of Christ, the Real Presence may be the most supported non-explicit dogma.

It is surely supported solidly by the Bible. My next door neighbor and I have had many heated discussions about the Eucharist. He is a religion graduate from an acreditied college and his mother is a minister of their church which is an offshoot Protestant church. He claims that Christ was merely speaking symbolically which of course I told him that what he is claiming is unbiblical.

 

[gcnuss]

We believe that the Holy Eucharist IS the Body and Blood of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ. Period. It is a glorious Mystery. We do not need explanations of substance and accidents.

Mickey,

To this I can only say “Amen!”

 

[East_and_West]

We believe that the Holy Eucharist IS the Body and Blood of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ. Period. It is a glorious Mystery. We do not need explanations of substance and accidents.

Subtance and accidents are not an explanation. They just words meaning “what it is” and “appearance”. This adds no explanation to how God accomplishes transubstantiation. He has not revealed this to us.

 

[East_and_West]

Mickey,

To this I can only say “Amen!”

And I can add, what a dishonest thing to say as you know that Latins have not explained the mystery. Again, we only use different words but we have no idea how God works transubstantiation.

 

[ralphinal]

It is surely supported solidly by the Bible. My next door neighbor and I have had many heated discussions about the Eucharist. He is a religion graduate from an acreditied college and his mother is a minister of their church which is an offshoot Protestant church. He claims that Christ was merely speaking symbolically which of course I told him that what he is claiming is unbiblical.

AMEN.

Oh my, I am agreeing with SIA. I better hide before Jesus comes back

 

[gcnuss]

And I can add, what a dishonest thing to say as you know that Latins have not explained the mystery. Again, we only use different words but we have no idea how God works transubstantiation.

East and West,

I don’t think I was being dishonest. To say that the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist is a mystery is one thing. To dogmatically insist that transubstantiation (based on Greek metaphysics) is the only way to express that mystery is quite another. I should hope that it is possible to believe in the real presence without using the word “transubstantiation.”

 

[East_and_West]

East and West,

I don’t think I was being dishonest. To say that the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist is a mystery is one thing. To dogmatically insist that transubstantiation (based on Greek metaphysics) is the only way to express that mystery is quite another. I should hope that it is possible to believe in the real presence without using the word “transubstantiation.”

It is dishonest because you know that using the terms transubstantiation, substance, and accidents adds no explanation to the mystery what so every. It simply uses words that are different from yours. If we suddenly started trying to explain exaclty how God cause transubstantiation to occur, then i would buy what you are saying.

 

[Mickey]

Subtance and accidents are not an explanation. They just words meaning “what it is” and “appearance”. This adds no explanation to how God accomplishes transubstantiation. He has not revealed this to us.

I think the added description using “substance” and “accidents” is an unnecessary attempt to explain what is happening.

 

[ralphinal]

I cannot speak for anyone on here, though I will when I want to. Anyway, there are times where I must discuss the Real Presence with people who do not accept it. Most are not Catholic, some are . The most common objections are that they do not think Jesus was literal when he talked about it and they do not understand how He looks and tastes like bread and wine. AS a rule, these people do not accept “It is a mystery” or that it is a miracle.

How do you deal with that? What is the Orthodox answer? How do you explain it?

 

[East_and_West]

I think the added description using “substance” and “accidents” is an unnecessary attempt to explain what is happening.

You may think that but that is simply not the case. Its just terms. You have yet to demonstrate that Catholics attempt to explain the mystery because we don’t know how transubstantiation takes place.

 

[SenorSalsa]

But why would we assume such a thing. God becomes bread…what does that mean and why without any evidence would anyone assume it to be true? I know Jesus said “This is my body, this is my blood”, but he spoke in metaphors and parables all the time. Why is this the one time Catholics take him literally? What benifits does an individual recieve when they consume the eucharist that they would not recieve by consuming ordinary bread and wine?

John 6:66
As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

I recommend you read all of John 6, but this verse is especially telling. Jesus taught some pretty out there things in his parables, yet nobody ever left him. And also, if this had been a parable, it would not have been such a shocking statement that “I am the Bread of Life”. Many of his disciples had begun to believe in him as the Messiah, so for them to leave, they must have realized this was more than just some parable or metaphor of him being the way into Heaven.

 

[Allnamesused]

Allow me to offer an analogy that will explain my attitude on the subject. Imagine a Catholic friend of mine approaches me and makes the following claim:

“It’s a miracle, an absolutely miracle”!
“What’s a miracle?” I respond.
“My car, it’s transformed into the body of Christ”!
“Wow…that is a miracle. I’d like to see what your Jesus car looks like”
“Ummm….that won’t be necessary, it look identical to what it looked like prior to its transformation”.
“Hmmm…Well, does it perform better”?
“Nope. Pretty much the same".
“Does the radio get a better reception”?
“Actually the radio still doesn’t work”.
“Are the seats more comfortable”?
“Not really”.
“Then why are you assuming that your car has transformed into the body of Christ”?
“Because it’s possible and because I have faith. This is God’s greatest act of humility, he has assumed the form of my car…I can now drive God! It’s a beautiful act of total humility and love”.
“Humility? This is the same God that commands us to worship him every Sunday right? Here’s my point friend, just because something is possible (not that I’m saying this is possible) doesn’t mean that it has happened. Sure, according to Catholic theology it is possible for your car to have become transformed into the body of Christ. My question is, why, without any evidence, would you ever assume this? The only miracle that has occurred here my friend is the fact that you, without even a shred of evidence, have concluded that your car is the body of Christ.”
“If you can’t appreciate the glory of my body of Christ car then you are a sad sad individual. You need to seriously consider the fate of your soul”.

End Reductio ad absurdum

The same Catholic philosophy that explains how bread and wine can become the body and blood of Christ applies equally to this car…yet a car being transformed seems silly. IMHO God’s greatest gift to us is the gift of reason. Faith and reason can co-exist quite easily, but reason must always take precedence when there is a conflict between the two. True faith follows reason, not blind obedience. Belief in something merely because that’s what you were told is as much a sin as denying the existence of God; because it’s denying God’s greatest gift. The best Christians are the ones that examine their beliefs with the eye of reason.

 

[ralphinal]

Allow me to offer an analogy that will explain my attitude on the subject. Imagine a Catholic friend of mine approaches me and makes the following claim:

“It’s a miracle, an absolutely miracle”!
“What’s a miracle?” I respond.
“My car, it’s transformed into the body of Christ”!
“Wow…that is a miracle. I’d like to see what your Jesus car looks like”
“Ummm….that won’t be necessary, it look identical to what it looked like prior to its transformation”.
“Hmmm…Well, does it perform better”?
“Nope. Pretty much the same".
“Does the radio get a better reception”?
“Actually the radio still doesn’t work”.
“Are the seats more comfortable”?
“Not really”.
“Then why are you assuming that your car has transformed into the body of Christ”?
“Because it’s possible and because I have faith. This is God’s greatest act of humility, he has assumed the form of my car…I can now drive God! It’s a beautiful act of total humility and love”.
“Humility? This is the same God that commands us to worship him every Sunday right? Here’s my point friend, just because something is possible (not that I’m saying this is possible) doesn’t mean that it has happened. Sure, according to Catholic theology it is possible for your car to have become transformed into the body of Christ. My question is, why, without any evidence, would you ever assume this? The only miracle that has occurred here my friend is the fact that you, without even a shred of evidence, have concluded that your car is the body of Christ.”
“If you can’t appreciate the glory of my body of Christ car then you are a sad sad individual. You need to seriously consider the fate of your soul”.

End Reductio ad absurdum

The same Catholic philosophy that explains how bread and wine can become the body and blood of Christ applies equally to this car…yet a car being transformed seems silly. IMHO God’s greatest gift to us is the gift of reason. Faith and reason can co-exist quite easily, but reason must always take precedence when there is a conflict between the two. True faith follows reason, not blind obedience. Belief in something merely because that’s what you were told is as much a sin as denying the existence of God; because it’s denying God’s greatest gift. The best Christians are the ones that examine their beliefs with the eye of reason.

Holy stuff. You missed the main point.

Jesus picked up bread and said this is my body. He picked up the cup and said this is my blood. He said do this. He had already said that his flesh was food indeed and his blood was drink

Now, explain how he was wrong. Was he lying? Did he let them leave over metaphors? Was he crazy?

 

[imroc]

As a non-catholic, I’ve always wondered just what it meant to say that the bread and wine used in the sacrament of the Eucharist is transformed into the body and blood of Christ. Honestly, I’m not attempting to be disrespectful towards anyone’s believes, but the whole thing seems…um…really really trying to think of a word other than silly…lets go with inexplicable.
I mean, clearly the two mundane substance make no physical transformation, so what does it mean to say that it’s the body and blood of Christ while it is still clearly bread and wine?

I ask, because I’ve always been drawn to the Catholic Church, I love the pope, the history, the moral stances on everything from abortion to war. I’ve considered joining for decades; but I feel like I would have to shut off part of my brain each time I received communion. I’m honestly hoping to be convinced here. FYI-I’ve read the bible and every quote you’re going to use to attempt to “prove” the real presence could easily be interpreted in some other way. I want to understand what it means.
thanks!

I like you already! You seem to be a person who responds well to God’s grace and I pray for you to never lose this. You love for all that seems catholic must have alot to do with that. However, I would challenge you to not just “keep your brain on”, but even more importantly open that big heart of yours a bit further. If you recieve God into your heart, allow him to come into you not just in spirt, but physically as he did when our blessed mother accepted him whole-heartedly. Have you ever heard of Archbishop Fulton Sheen? I love hearing him talk. I guess some people could refer to his work in an apologitic fashion, but I just want to share this with you as a gift to open your heart to the possiblity that maybe, just maybe that Christ, the Son of God did leave us his humanity to draw from.
bringyou.to/SheenGrace.mp3

It’s a long talk and I highly encourage you to listen all the way through. Let me know what you think via PM if you’d like!

God Bless you!

 

[imroc]

Allow me to offer an analogy that will explain my attitude on the subject. Imagine a Catholic friend of mine approaches me and makes the following claim:

“It’s a miracle, an absolutely miracle”!
“What’s a miracle?” I respond.
“My car, it’s transformed into the body of Christ”!
“Wow…that is a miracle. I’d like to see what your Jesus car looks like”
“Ummm….that won’t be necessary, it look identical to what it looked like prior to its transformation”.
“Hmmm…Well, does it perform better”?
“Nope. Pretty much the same".
“Does the radio get a better reception”?
“Actually the radio still doesn’t work”.
“Are the seats more comfortable”?
“Not really”.
“Then why are you assuming that your car has transformed into the body of Christ”?
“Because it’s possible and because I have faith. This is God’s greatest act of humility, he has assumed the form of my car…I can now drive God! It’s a beautiful act of total humility and love”.
“Humility? This is the same God that commands us to worship him every Sunday right? Here’s my point friend, just because something is possible (not that I’m saying this is possible) doesn’t mean that it has happened. Sure, according to Catholic theology it is possible for your car to have become transformed into the body of Christ. My question is, why, without any evidence, would you ever assume this? The only miracle that has occurred here my friend is the fact that you, without even a shred of evidence, have concluded that your car is the body of Christ.”
“If you can’t appreciate the glory of my body of Christ car then you are a sad sad individual. You need to seriously consider the fate of your soul”.

End Reductio ad absurdum

The same Catholic philosophy that explains how bread and wine can become the body and blood of Christ applies equally to this car…yet a car being transformed seems silly. IMHO God’s greatest gift to us is the gift of reason. Faith and reason can co-exist quite easily, but reason must always take precedence when there is a conflict between the two. True faith follows reason, not blind obedience. Belief in something merely because that’s what you were told is as much a sin as denying the existence of God; because it’s denying God’s greatest gift. The best Christians are the ones that examine their beliefs with the eye of reason.

I have to admit that I enjoyed your analogy! It was quite funny, especially the radio STILL not working! lol What a bummer that would be huh!? In response I would say that God, the Father wasn’t calling for his people to use Matchbox Cars or Hot Wheels in ancient Jewish liturgy, worship or sacrifice and thus there’s really no ‘typology’ from the old Covenant that would make the use of the real automobile in adoration or for us to draw from.

I wish to ponder this more, but I have to ask if I can use this analogy in teaching my catechism students?

 

[AlegreFe]

As a non-catholic, I’ve always wondered just what it meant to say that the bread and wine used in the sacrament of the Eucharist is transformed into the body and blood of Christ. Honestly, I’m not attempting to be disrespectful towards anyone’s believes, but the whole thing seems…um…really really trying to think of a word other than silly…lets go with inexplicable.
I mean, clearly the two mundane substance make no physical transformation, so what does it mean to say that it’s the body and blood of Christ while it is still clearly bread and wine?

I ask, because I’ve always been drawn to the Catholic Church, I love the pope, the history, the moral stances on everything from abortion to war. I’ve considered joining for decades; but I feel like I would have to shut off part of my brain each time I received communion. I’m honestly hoping to be convinced here. FYI-I’ve read the bible and every quote you’re going to use to attempt to “prove” the real presence could easily be interpreted in some other way. I want to understand what it means.
thanks!

No amount of our words will ever make you understand. It’s all a matter of FAITH. It’s that simple. The words that Jesus spoke were of Spirit & Life. So without the Holy Spirit to give you the faith you will never believe.

Please click on the link in my siggy about Jesus being the Eucharist. You will also see other videos in the related videos section to the right of my video.

Peace & Love in Christ

 

[AlegreFe]

I have to admit that I enjoyed your analogy! It was quite funny, especially the radio STILL not working! lol What a bummer that would be huh!? In response I would say that God, the Father wasn’t calling for his people to use Matchbox Cars or Hot Wheels in ancient Jewish liturgy, worship or sacrifice and thus there’s really no ‘typology’ from the old Covenant that would make the use of the real automobile in adoration or for us to draw from.

I wish to ponder this more, but I have to ask if I can use this analogy in teaching my catechism students?

Uum, no, please don’t use that analogy. This guy was not for real. Did you read the whole post? It seems he was poking fun. Besides, a car?

A better analogy that I like to use is with a person. Let’s say you know of a man who does not know Jesus. This man leads a bad lifestyle. One day this man finds out about Jesus through a friend of a friend. This man has a change of heart. This man has been transformed. His heart is different, softer. He changed as a man on the inside but we cannot see a change on the outside. He still looks the same. He still has the same color hair & eyes. But he is definitely different on the inside.

 

[Nickkname]

As a non-catholic, I’ve always wondered just what it meant to say that the bread and wine used in the sacrament of the Eucharist is transformed into the body and blood of Christ. Honestly, I’m not attempting to be disrespectful towards anyone’s believes, but the whole thing seems…um…really really trying to think of a word other than silly…lets go with inexplicable.
I mean, clearly the two mundane substance make no physical transformation, so what does it mean to say that it’s the body and blood of Christ while it is still clearly bread and wine?

I ask, because I’ve always been drawn to the Catholic Church, I love the pope, the history, the moral stances on everything from abortion to war. I’ve considered joining for decades; but I feel like I would have to shut off part of my brain each time I received communion. I’m honestly hoping to be convinced here. FYI-I’ve read the bible and every quote you’re going to use to attempt to “prove” the real presence could easily be interpreted in some other way. I want to understand what it means.
thanks!

It seems silly because the world teaches that miracles do not exist, and the worldly, hence, do not believe in miracles. The transubstantiation is a great miracle, it is once bread and wine but now it is Jesus Christ, crucified and risen. We say it is His Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity because we acknolwedge His Death and Resurrection (separation and unity of of Body and Blood), we acknowledge His Humanity (Body, Blood, Soul) and His Divinity (Divinity), and we acknowledge His communion with us in light of the Incarnation and Ascension (Soul and Divinity), which is augmented in Holy Communion.

How the bread and wine become Jesus is this: The Father sends the Holy Spirit, the Sanctifier, to sanctify the bread and wine, that is, to make the bread and wine holy, and they become for us the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. The miracle of transubstaniation is revealed in the Mystery of the Incarnation and the Paschal Mysteries, so by meditating on the mysteries of Christ, one comes to a deeper understanding of the Eucharist.

However, no one can fully understand the mysteries of Christ or His sacraments. We can come to know them better through meditation, that is, by lifting our minds to God and letting Him give us a deeper understanding of His works, but we cannot ever fathom the mysteries or sacraments completely, and this because of our finite nature.