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Chatter163
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Next time don’t ask in advance. :banghead:
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TrueLight
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That makes sense. The word “veil” does sound like you’re covering your face. Sorry for laughing!
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MissRose73
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If I was in your situation, I would purchase a very wide headband made from material like lace or velvet so that you have the feeling of something there without drawing attention. Or you can use a chapel cap / small mantilla. No reason to give up your convictions to veil. I veil now for both forms of the Mass, and no priest has ever told me NOT to veil / cover my head especially at the Ordinary Form.
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odile53
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Just go with the little round black chapel cap, the kind we used to have to wear in the sixties in order to be “legit,” and leave it at that. If your hair is black, at ten paces, nobody will notice it, especially the priest, who is supposed to be focusing on the Mass instead of what any particular individual is wearing in their hair. I think the old fashioned eight inch black doily type “chapel veil” is an even more subtle head covering than the pink snood and bow affair that was posted. Secure it down with a few pins, and I’m betting you’ll escape “detection!”–LOL!
Parish priests at more progressive parishes, if they are even going to freak out about hair coverings (and most of them don’t,) usually do so with the longer mantillas or prairie style (think Amish-type) hair coverings. If you’re wearing something that isn’t dangling all over the place and kind of blends in with your hair, or a seasonally appropriate hat (something you’d wear for weather, not the AME-type “church hats,”) nobody even notices it and you can get away without any pointed remarks.
Actually, the only place I’ve ever had any kind of reaction at all from anyone was once at a weekday Mass during a very blustery Holy Week when I put on a mantilla style veil. Two men about half my age were staring at me throughout the Mass. I haven’t heard anyone comment on hair coverings either way in real life. A couple of priest friends commented to me, when I asked them specifically about it, that there is no mention currently about whether or not to wear something on your head, and if I felt like I was called to it, go ahead, and if I didn’t want to, that was okay, too. I sometimes think that those of us with some traditional leanings make a bigger deal about it than it really is, and I sometimes think that there are some women who veil who are doing so to call attention to themselves. It’s difficult to explain if you don’t see it for yourself, but the gestalt screams. I’ve actually seen the combination of cleavage/short skirt/mantilla at an EF Mass, believe it or not!
Myself, I don’t particularly care for the big mantillas, finding that keeping them on is more of a nuisance and a distraction than anything else. They dangle, they slide all over the place, they’re hard to get on straight without a mirror handy (and I’m not comfortable pinning them on in the narthex using a mirror compact,) or I have to stick a few pins straight into my scalp to keep them on straight. I have a couple of hats which are weather appropriate, or I wear a scarf. I can secure those, and I’m covered.
An entirely uniform choir? What are they thinking? It’s not the Rockettes, or a corps de ballet, for pete’s sake, it’s a parish choir!
Parish priests at more progressive parishes, if they are even going to freak out about hair coverings (and most of them don’t,) usually do so with the longer mantillas or prairie style (think Amish-type) hair coverings. If you’re wearing something that isn’t dangling all over the place and kind of blends in with your hair, or a seasonally appropriate hat (something you’d wear for weather, not the AME-type “church hats,”) nobody even notices it and you can get away without any pointed remarks.
Actually, the only place I’ve ever had any kind of reaction at all from anyone was once at a weekday Mass during a very blustery Holy Week when I put on a mantilla style veil. Two men about half my age were staring at me throughout the Mass. I haven’t heard anyone comment on hair coverings either way in real life. A couple of priest friends commented to me, when I asked them specifically about it, that there is no mention currently about whether or not to wear something on your head, and if I felt like I was called to it, go ahead, and if I didn’t want to, that was okay, too. I sometimes think that those of us with some traditional leanings make a bigger deal about it than it really is, and I sometimes think that there are some women who veil who are doing so to call attention to themselves. It’s difficult to explain if you don’t see it for yourself, but the gestalt screams. I’ve actually seen the combination of cleavage/short skirt/mantilla at an EF Mass, believe it or not!
Myself, I don’t particularly care for the big mantillas, finding that keeping them on is more of a nuisance and a distraction than anything else. They dangle, they slide all over the place, they’re hard to get on straight without a mirror handy (and I’m not comfortable pinning them on in the narthex using a mirror compact,) or I have to stick a few pins straight into my scalp to keep them on straight. I have a couple of hats which are weather appropriate, or I wear a scarf. I can secure those, and I’m covered.
An entirely uniform choir? What are they thinking? It’s not the Rockettes, or a corps de ballet, for pete’s sake, it’s a parish choir!
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thomas_jd
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For two thousand years women were required to cover their heads.That requirement was abrogated, many will argue that point but that is another thread,in 1984. There is no prohibition against a women covering her head!promethius said:
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promethius
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An appropriate veil is considered part of a churchgoing outfit. The distinction that a woman’s hat should have conection to her outfit is to prevent watchcaps, sun shades, or other inclement weather devices from being worn inside.
Certainly you don’t think that the proscription for women to cover their heads with a veil authorizes the wear of a baseball cap for that purpose?
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thomas_jd
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Connection? Baseball caps?
See how far you will get imposing your ideas regarding womens fashion.
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promethius
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I think you’ve lost the connection to what I was trying to state. I’ve never stated that there was a prohibition against women veiling themselves, or that the church enforces strict prohibitions against any sort of headwear for anyone.
What I stated was that traditionally in WESTERN customs and courtesies (aka, I’m not discussing official rubrics of the mass, but social customs in the west), it is considered socially acceptable for women to wear headcoverings indoors if this headwear represents a portion of their outfit.
YOU turned that around and tried to put in my mouth that I was stating the church prohibits veiling. That’s silly and obviously a non-sequiter from my point
I corrected your mistatement in pointing out that veiling is considered part of an outfit for sunday churchgoing and therefore according to SOCIAL NORM (not church restriction) is acceptable headwear, unlike, say, baseball caps.
Now you’ve got some point, but because you’re not attempting to follow what I’m saying, I’m a little baffled by what it is. So perhaps you can go back through, read my posts again, and then be a little more clear on what you’re getting at (ie, are you trying to assert that women should not be allowed to veil, that the church has no strictures on any headwear, or that wholesale use of any headwear should be acceptable under social standards today vice traditional western customs and courtesies?).
I will, however, have to ask that you start that as a new thread, since this subject is about men at arms wearing cover indoors (not about women veiling) and you are derailing from that subject.
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Mrs_Sally
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Nothing ever said that a woman had to cover her head with a veil. It became a common fashion, but it was never a rule. Women were to cover their heads period, and veils, scarves, hats, baseball caps, even hankies served that purpose. Very few women or even girls were likely to wear a baseball cap to church, but that’s not the point.
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promethius
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headdesk
I’m NOT talking about liturgical RULES. I’m talking about common social ettiquette regarding hats. Since proper hat wear has fallen out of custom in the last 50 years, and therefore most civilians are grossly uneducated in proper headwear etiquette, here is an article, where you will find that yes, women are (in SOCIAL CUSTOM) not supposed to wear “men’s” hats indoors, while there is exemption (and in fact some proscription) for wearing veils and other “female” headwear indoors (or even during the national anthem/church).
villagehatshop.com/hat_etiquette.html
Now, please stop purporting to tell me about western etiquette. I had classes on the subject in College for that and unqualified persons on internet forums do not dictate what social customs and courtesies are.
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Mrs_Sally
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Since the OP is talking about church specifically, I am also talking about church and not about ordinary social norms. No, in the years when women wore hats as part of their dress everytime they went out, nobody but an 8 yo tomboy was wearing a baseball cap. But social norms for women’s dress aren’t always the same as church rules and that is my point.
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ElisabethM
Guest
I am the choir director (though I use that term rather loosely) at our church and just started wearing a mantilla. I never thought about it until a new family moved to our parish last summer. The mother and daughters all wear mantillas and when the daughters joined the choir we had a lot of discussion about it. My 11yo daughter, who also sings in the choir, wanted to wear a mantilla so the mother of this new family got her one. I worried that my wearing one would draw undue attention to myself, but I realized the good things about wearing a covering–it draws attention to the dignity of the Mass, it impresses on me the humility I need in the presence of my Lord and I think most, if not all, people find it a beautiful gesture. I always have. So just last week I started wearing a mantilla when I am in the church.
Our priest has not objected and I don’t expect him to. But if your priest has explicitly forbidden you from wearing a covering while in the choir, you do have to obey him. But, as many others suggested, perhaps showing him some examples of what you might wear could allay his concerns of “showiness” (though such concerns are EXTREMELY unreasonable–how about addressing the obscenely immodest dress of people in the pew first of all!).
em
Our priest has not objected and I don’t expect him to. But if your priest has explicitly forbidden you from wearing a covering while in the choir, you do have to obey him. But, as many others suggested, perhaps showing him some examples of what you might wear could allay his concerns of “showiness” (though such concerns are EXTREMELY unreasonable–how about addressing the obscenely immodest dress of people in the pew first of all!).
em
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PhilomenaJohn2
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I’ve also wrestled with this issue before. My parish is a “round parish” where no one else wears a headcovering, but after reading Alice von Hildebrand and Gertrude von le Fort, I’ve felt compelled to do something. I found a good solution to be a pretty scarf that I can wear like a headband. The people at daily Mass might notice, but on Sunday, it could easily be a fashion accesory and no one is the wiser. A thick black headband also works in a pinch (I also have dark hair) I’ve realized that people don’t notice those sorts of things unless I say draw attention to it
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TheMc
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It would seem this priest is going very strongly against the mind of the church here. As the holy father has said in Summorum Pontificum:
What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful.
This seems to apply very well to this situation…I know people will get mad at me, but this pastor needs to get his wits about him. He simply can’t go around doing things like that.
What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful.
This seems to apply very well to this situation…I know people will get mad at me, but this pastor needs to get his wits about him. He simply can’t go around doing things like that.
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Elizium23
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I see this popping up again and I believe that the word you want is “prescription”. A prescription is a positive request, and a proscription is a prohibition.
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Phemie
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There has never been a rule that women cover their head with a veil, there was a rule that women cover their heads and anything that covered her head qualified: a bonnet, a hat, a scarf, a ball cap, a glove or a kleenex if nothing else was available. In North America, veils/mantillas didn’t make their appearance until the mid 60s.
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Phemie
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Most often it’s not the architecture, it’s choice. In most of the parishes I’ve attended in the last decade or so, even those with choir lofts have moved their choirs to the sanctuary or just outside of the sanctuary and to the side. The Basilica Cathedral at the Archdiocese in our province, which was consecrated in 1855, is an example of that: a large choir loft, with a fabulous Casavant pipe organ but the choir is in the right transept.
At my birth parish, an 80 year old church built in the traditional cruciform design, the choir was moved from the loft to the left transept in the 80s.
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Phemie
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I’d never even heard of ‘veiling’ until I started reading these boards. Back when it was compulsory, we called it ‘covering your head to go to church’ and what you put on depended pretty much on your fashion sense and bank account. I wore a hat even as a little girl, because my aunt would usually buy me one as a present. As a teen I wore a little triangular ‘kerchief’ in the summer and in the winter I wore whatever teens wore in the winter, be it a knit cap, a knit helmet or a fake fur ‘helmet’. Nobody cared as long as you had something on your head. And yes, I did the kleenex thing on holidays when we went to visit churches and anytime we had an unscheduled school visit to the church.
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centurionguard
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Really? Were did you get that idea? Chapel Veils have been worn by Catholic women has long been a tradition in the E.F. Mass many centuries well before Vatican II.
catholicknight.blogspot.com/2006/09/wear-your-mantilla-with-pride.html
Feminism; the burning of the Bra etc. is what destroyed the beautiful humble Marian symbolism, behind women wearing of the Chapel Veil.
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Phemie
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Not in my neck of the woods. I never saw women wearing mantillas/chapel veils in Northern New Brunswick until well into the 60s. I was in grade 4 or 5 when they made their appearance and as someone has already said, started around the time that Jackie Kennedy was photographed wearing one. You’d be hard pressed to see a picture in the 50s that showed Canadian women wearing ‘veils’. Kerchiefs and hats, sure, but not veils.
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