Question about when and why to have kids

[pconwell]

First, a little background. My wife is Catholic, I am an Atheist. I’m not here to argue about religious views, or who is right or wrong - I’m just looking for some Catholic perspective.

I understand being ‘open’ to children. I don’t agree with it, but I understand it. Additionally, my wife has a medical condition that gives her a dispensation to take birth control. (She doesn’t take it for ‘birth control’, she takes it to balance her hormones.) Another way she can ‘treat’ her condition is to get pregnant. Pregnancy would force her hormones to balance correctly.

So, she wants to stop taking birth control and try to get pregnant. The problem is, we are not ready for kids. Before anyone says anything - I know, there is not perfect time to have kids. However, that being said, you shouldn’t be irresponsible about your timing with children. Just because there is not a perfect time and you will never be ‘ready’ doesn’t mean you shouldn’t make plans to set your family up for the best success possible.

We are both fairly young (I’m 28, she is 25) and both just recently graduated from college and started our careers - and incidentally, we have a LOT of debt. She wants to stay home with our kids when we have some - which I support 100% - but we cannot afford to live off just my salary if we have kids right now.

I want to wait a year or two to pay off (most) of our debt and have some money saved for a house before we start looking at having kids. She sees this as me pushing her away from the church or preventing her from following her faith. I see it as her forcing kids on me when I don’t want them right now.

1 Timothy 5:8 says that someone who does not take care of his own family is worse than a non-believer. So, at what point - knowing that if we have kids now we cannot take care of them - do you stay ‘open to life’? Surely, at some point, God would want you to care for your children more than he would want you to have more children.

So, anyway, like I said, I’m not going to change my views, and I don’t want anyone else to change their views - I’m just trying to get a better understand and appreciation for my wife’s religion.

Thanks.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I have a feeling that this is one of those threads that is going to get very rude, very fast. Before it does I’m going to throw in my opinion.

1. No kids should be born until both people are ready to be parents.
2. When you married a Catholic you knew that the church says that two people shouldn’t get married unless they are open to children.

Because those two things are at odds you need to speak with both a secular counselor and her priest. That way everyone heard and the advice of both sides is given, so that no one is “ganged up on”. This is a bigger problem than just kids. You guys will have serious differences like this your entire lives, so its best to get good at communication and compromise from the start.

 

[pconwell]

I have a feeling that this is one of those threads that is going to get very rude, very fast. Before it does I’m going to throw in my opinion.

1. No kids should be born until both people are ready to be parents.
2. When you married a Catholic you knew that the church says that two people shouldn’t get married unless they are open to children.

Because those two things are at odds you need to speak with both a secular counselor and her priest. That way everyone heard and the advice of both sides is given, so that no one I’d “ganged up on”. This is a bigger problem than just kids. You guys will have serious differences like this your entire lives, so its best to get good at communication and compromise from the start.

Thanks for your support. I hope this thread doesn’t get rude - I genuinely would like to hear everyone’s perspectives.

As far as your number 2, when we got married, she agreed to wait to have kids - but now she has decided she wants kids sooner than later.

 

[Castello]

There is nothing in Catholic teaching that says one must be rich, be financially “secure”, own a home, have no debt, make $12 per hour… any of the above… in order to have children. The poorest person in the US is staggeringly wealthy much of the world or in most of history.

A father cares for his children when he works as hard as he can to make sure they get to heaven, that they love God and that he honors and cherishes their mother, that he provides for the physical needs of the family in an honest way. It is not a sin to live with extended family in order to provide for one’s family.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Thanks for your support. I hope this thread doesn’t get rude - I genuinely would like to hear everyone’s perspectives.

As far as your number 2, when we got married, she agreed to wait to have kids - but now she has decided she wants kids sooner than later.

That’s no good. I firmly believe that rules should not be unilaterally changed after the wedding. Especially in interfaith relationships where the marriage wouldn’t and couldn’t have happened without those pre-wedding agreements.

 

[funion987]

I see it as her forcing kids on me when I don’t want them right now.

This seems to be the critical point. If you truly see it as just “not wanting to have them,” then that would be not a valid reason in the eyes of the Catholic Church.

2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:

When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts, criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.156

 

[1ke]

It sounds to me like she may be using “her faith” as an excuse to get her way.

“Her faith” did not seem to be an issue when she decided to marry an atheist.

“Her faith” did not seem to be an issue when she racked up student loan debt.

“Her faith” did not seem to be an issue when she initially agreed to waiting a few years to have children.

The Church does not teach that one must have children right away. It also doesn’t teach you must be financially set to become parents.

Now, marriage may have simply changed her. She may desire to be a mother much more strongly. Maybe she isn’t using her faith as an excuse but rather is feeling the call of God to be open to new life at this point. As we have seen in other threads, life is what happens when you are busy making other plans. I disagree that it is “wrong” of her to change her mind. I do think, however, it is “wrong” to use her religion to guilt you.

If she really wants to start a family now, then you and she may have to give up on the “stay at home mom” ideal and make a different plan for repaying debt while having a family. She can’t have it both ways.

Her faith may certainly be prompting her to re-evaluate her decisons and priorities. That may be uncomfortable for you.

 

[pconwell]

This seems to be the critical point. If you truly see it as just “not wanting to have them,” then that would be not a valid reason in the eyes of the Catholic Church.

As I said, it would be irresponsible for us to have kids right now.

it is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood

 

[1ke]

That’s no good. I firmly believe that rules should not be unilaterally changed after the wedding. Especially in interfaith relationships where the marriage wouldn’t and couldn’t have happened without those pre-wedding agreements.

It’s naive to think that people never change their minds and their priorities. Many women, once they are married, feel a strong pull towards motherhood even if they might not have been super keen on the idea before marriage.

It’s called growth. It’s called change. As a couple, you figure out how to deal with it.

You can discuss all you want before you marry, that just doesn’t mean you won’t or can’t change your mind later. It happens. That is why, IMHO, it is important that you both have the same come from in life-- the same values, beliefs, and core aspects of faith. Because her “come from” is the Catholic faith, she is easily moving towards motherhood and being open to life. Because his “come from” is something else entirely he is not moving along in the same direction she is-- this will be true throughout their marriage as she grows and matures in the faith and he does not. It will be quite difficult for them.

 

[1ke]

If you are an atheist, why does your profile indicate you are a Christian?

 

[puzzleannie]

without going all negative, which I am sure other posters can provide, let me just make one positive comment
learning and implementing NFP together would be one of the greatest things you could do for yourselves and your marriage and pay dividends through growth in intimacy, true intimacy beyond the physical, for years to come and possibly be the deciding factor that holds you together against all the forces that conspire against married couples today.

 

[pconwell]

If you are an atheist, why does your profile indicate you are a Christian?

I don’t know…

 

[Castello]

As I said, it would be irresponsible for us to have kids right now.

Can you show us where in Catholic teaching there is an income test for responsible parenthood?

 

[pconwell]

Can you show us where in Catholic teaching there is an income test for responsible parenthood?

It’s common sense. Where does it say that you should have children if you know you cannot afford it? At what point does God expect you to suspend common sense and not use the brain that he made for you?

What do you think the test for responsible parenthood should be?

 

[Castello]

It’s common sense. Where does it say that you should have children if you know you cannot afford it? At what point does God expect you to suspend common sense and not use the brain that he made for you?

What do you think the test for responsible parenthood should be?

I think I told you above - making sure your children are well grounded in the Faith, that mother and father are committed to God first and to the family second. Raising children who will bring glory to God.

 

[pconwell]

I think I told you above - making sure your children are well grounded in the Faith, that mother and father are committed to God first and to the family second. Raising children who will bring glory to God.

If that is your test for responsible parenting, then I will never be a responsible parent - and should never have children.

I would suspect that even you would agree that there are a few people who are committed to god who probably shouldn’t have more children. Westboro Baptist Church?

 

[Baelor]

I think I told you above - making sure your children are well grounded in the Faith, that mother and father are committed to God first and to the family second. Raising children who will bring glory to God.

And that is difficult when you have problems even putting food on the table for them, or when you cannot spend time with them or even have a healthful living environment for them. No one, including the OP, is advocating waiting until they the couple can afford a mansion and wait staff for the children. At the same time, it’s extremely uncharitable and irresponsible to assume that the OP is wrong or lying to us. Nor is it our place to challenge his statement, even if we feel we have good reason to do it. At least wait until the OP’s question has gotten answered.

And to the poster(s) saying that the poorest person in the US is still richer than people elsewhere, that’s a totally vacuous argument unless the cost of living is the same.

OP, your wife needs to be open to life at all times. I suggest that you discuss this matter with her and a priest.

I think that the question can be rewritten as follows, if it helps: is a couple obligated to get pregnant within a set amount of time?

 

[Castello]

And that is difficult when you have problems even putting food on the table for them, or when you cannot spend time with them or even have a healthful living environment for them. No one, including the OP, is advocating waiting until they the couple can afford a mansion and wait staff for the children. At the same time, it’s extremely uncharitable and irresponsible to assume that the OP is wrong or lying to us. Nor is it our place to challenge his statement, even if we feel we have good reason to do it. At least wait until the OP’s question has gotten answered.

And to the poster(s) saying that the poorest person in the US is still richer than people elsewhere, that’s a totally vacuous argument unless the cost of living is the same.

OP, your wife needs to be open to life at all times. I suggest that you discuss this matter with her and a priest.

I think that the question can be rewritten as follows, if it helps: is a couple obligated to get pregnant within a set amount of time?

Never said the OP was lying…

Can you answer my question, what IS the income guide for responsible parenthood? Are those in poverty irresponsible parents?

 

[nodito]

Never said the OP was lying…

Can you answer my question, what IS the income guide for responsible parenthood? Are those in poverty irresponsible parents?

There is no “income guide” for responsible parenthood, but I think it’s reasonable to believe that couples ought to feel they can provide for not only the spiritual needs but also the physical needs of their children. Those in poverty are not necessarily irresponsible to have more children; they may well be exercising great generosity and sacrifice, but it is also not imprudent to wait to have children if you really cannot afford them.

So, she wants to stop taking birth control and try to get pregnant. The problem is, we are not ready for kids…we cannot afford to live off just my salary if we have kids right now.

What does your wife say about this? Sit down and look at the numbers together. Does she understand how much your debt payment is and how much you would need to earn to allow her to stay home? Is she willing to sacrifice being a stay at home mom in order to have kids right away? Or does she expect you to go into more debt in order thats he can stay home with the kids?

She sees this as me pushing her away from the church or preventing her from following her faith. I see it as her forcing kids on me when I don’t want them right now.

I don’t see how you are preventing her from following her faith. There’s nothing sinful about taking medication that temporarily renders her infertile, and there’s no obligation to seek pregnancy if in discernment a couple has decided to postpone having children for the time being. On the other hand, marriage is for children. That’s one of the primary and fundamental purposes of marriage. Saying she’s “forcing” you to have children is like going to a water park and then complaining that your friends are forcing you to get wet.

My advice to you is to keep up respectful dialogue. Don’t belittle her desire to be a mother and all the meanwhile pay off the debt as fast as you can so you’ll have more options when it comes to starting a family. My advice to her (if she’s reading this or if you care to share it) would be to start saying rosaries for your conversion.

God bless.

 

[Baelor]

Can you answer my question, what IS the income guide for responsible parenthood? Are those in poverty irresponsible parents?

I never claimed that there was a threshold for necessary income. Those who are unable, or for whom there is a large probability of being unable, to provide for their children at a basic level I would consider irresponsible for having children at that time.