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ifiddles
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I guess we all have our own opinions…I certainly didn’t go into my first marriage thinking it would end in divorce and as one poster said, it wasn’t me that left that marriage…as for remarriage, I certainly don’t intend on going into it lightly either…I have all intentions of staying till death do us part, but I am also not willing to lose half of what I have worked so hard to put aside for my golden years should this happen to me again…I am going to ask our priest after mass this Sunday to see what he says…will be interesting to hear his response…
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PietroPaolo
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I think you’d be hard pressed to find Jesus anywhere in the Gospels exhorting us to make sure we keep what we’ve worked so hard for.
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johnmann
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No they don’t and no they aren’t.
Two of the links are to a Fr. Vincent Serpa saying they’re not allowed because you can’t have strings attached to marriage. But pre-nups create no strings to marriage. They create strings to divorce. Canon law only forbids the former. The other link is a copy and paste from Wikipedia and says to contact a canon lawyer.
There’s no doubt that some pre-nups are fine. You can have a canon lawyer evaluate your’s. The Diocese of Pittsburgh evaluates pre-nups as part of marriage preparation.
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johnmann
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Are you saying that protecting your assets is immoral?
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ifiddles
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johnmann…thanks for your support and to pietropaolo I agree that we wouldn’t find anything to that effect in the gospel…I read the links provided thanks and they are food for thought…I really did not intend to raise any blood pressures…I don’t think a prenup is immoral and I am sorry, but in today’s day and age, one has to protect themselves and what they’ve worked hard for (whether that be a home, savings, toys, whatever)…like I said, I don’t intend on entering into marriage faithlessly nor with the predetermined mind that it is going to fail…but when I have worked so hard to ensure I am financially comfortable in my retirement since the age of 22, I am certainly not willing to let it all go for nothing…and of course, who knows…if we both live to a ripe old age and are happy and still together, the prenup might not even have to come into play…but I know personally, I would be happier having one in place and I am sure, there are other good Catholics out there who either already have one or would get one if they were in a similar situation…
to seagal…like I said before…I am committed and plan on making it life long…but I did that with my ex and look where I am now…
to Xantippe…good advice…he has a great work ethic and I know he tried to pay down his debt but with expenses for 3 kids, house, car, etc., he generally runs out by end of the month…he does pay down his debt but I think he adds to it as well…this is definitely something we need to discuss further…
I have at least a year and a half to see how things go…that is how long an annulment takes up here…and I am in no rush to walk down the altar…
thanks again to everyone for their (name removed by moderator)ut…sorry for hijacking this thread…
to seagal…like I said before…I am committed and plan on making it life long…but I did that with my ex and look where I am now…
to Xantippe…good advice…he has a great work ethic and I know he tried to pay down his debt but with expenses for 3 kids, house, car, etc., he generally runs out by end of the month…he does pay down his debt but I think he adds to it as well…this is definitely something we need to discuss further…
I have at least a year and a half to see how things go…that is how long an annulment takes up here…and I am in no rush to walk down the altar…
thanks again to everyone for their (name removed by moderator)ut…sorry for hijacking this thread…
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Xantippe
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ifiddles said:
“I certainly don’t intend on going into it lightly either…I have all intentions of staying till death do us part, but I am also not willing to lose half of what I have worked so hard to put aside for my golden years should this happen to me again…I am going to ask our priest after mass this Sunday to see what he says…will be interesting to hear his response…”
Have a talk with a lawyer to see what is the usual default in your jurisdiction–I suspect that the scenario you describe is very unlikely. In a lot of places, the stuff that the spouse brings to the marriage isn’t divvied up in the event of divorce, but assets that are created during the marriage are considered community property.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_property
As somebody said upthread, one form of a prenuptial agreement is just a list of property that each spouse currently has.
In any case, don’t marry somebody unless you are totally convinced that he is hard-working and prudent and good with money. You need to see a track record of improvement and willingness to learn.
From your description of the guy you’re seeing, he sounds like a lot of fun, but it’s not totally clear that he is husband material…yet. I’d be really worried about a guy who is enjoying motorcycles while having a lot of debt, for instance. If he has a motorcycle that’s worth much at all, selling it may be one of the first steps toward clearing up his financial situation.
“I certainly don’t intend on going into it lightly either…I have all intentions of staying till death do us part, but I am also not willing to lose half of what I have worked so hard to put aside for my golden years should this happen to me again…I am going to ask our priest after mass this Sunday to see what he says…will be interesting to hear his response…”
Have a talk with a lawyer to see what is the usual default in your jurisdiction–I suspect that the scenario you describe is very unlikely. In a lot of places, the stuff that the spouse brings to the marriage isn’t divvied up in the event of divorce, but assets that are created during the marriage are considered community property.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_property
As somebody said upthread, one form of a prenuptial agreement is just a list of property that each spouse currently has.
In any case, don’t marry somebody unless you are totally convinced that he is hard-working and prudent and good with money. You need to see a track record of improvement and willingness to learn.
From your description of the guy you’re seeing, he sounds like a lot of fun, but it’s not totally clear that he is husband material…yet. I’d be really worried about a guy who is enjoying motorcycles while having a lot of debt, for instance. If he has a motorcycle that’s worth much at all, selling it may be one of the first steps toward clearing up his financial situation.
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ifiddles
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you are correct Xantippe…I did a quick search and sort of found similar info to what you mentioned…again, definitely something to look further into…but US and Canadian laws are different and even within Canada, each province is different as well…as for the bike, it’s not worth much at all and there’s no way he’s selling (I wouldn’t let him - it’s our summer passion)…
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MJJean
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After you talk to your priest, might want to contact a canon lawyer and get a second opinion, just in case. Not all priests are well versed in canon law and you could receive advice in error.
I agree with you, btw. If I worked for decades to secure my retirement and inheritance for any children, had already been burned by a divorce, and was contemplating remarrying I would also want to make sure my assets were legally protected.
My close friend is buying a house with and marrying a man who was divorced. I was worried about them financially as she is receiving Social Security due to her late husband passing. If/when she remarries she will lose that Social Security income. She is 40 and has two children grown and gone and two more who are still at home. If her husband to be wasn’t financially on the ball she and the children would be in a bad place. And this wonderful man seemed always broke!
Turns out, he is divorced with two children, which I knew. What I did not know is that his ex-wife took him to the cleaners. Half his income goes to child support and alimony. Plus, he pays for most of his daughters extracurricular activities, all their healthcare costs, and drives them back and forth for visitations (2 evenings a week and every other weekend). This lovely man is also responsible for all of the marital debt. He was great at managing money. His ex-wife, however, used credit cards to live beyond their means and he was none the wiser until the divorce. Since she was a stay at home mom and he worked, all debt ended up being his to repay.
So, yes, he is out of money by the end of the month after all that and his own living expenses. And, yes, he is paying down debt from years ago. But he is taking care of his kids, meeting all legal obligations, and works very hard at a well paying but physically demanding job. Who could argue that he would be a poor mate considering all that?
(For those wondering, he is a conservative and does not approve of divorce. His ex wife blindsided him with divorce papers while he was sleeping after a 14 hour shift. She woke him up when the process server got there. She said she wanted out because he worked too much…to support her desired lifestyle…I know a lot of women who wish they had that “problem”)
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maltmom
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Because of my profession I would never get married without one. When I got married five years ago I had one. I wanted one, not because I thought we would ever divorce, but because of the tremendous business debt I had. Basically it said what was in my name was “mine”, his name “his” and both our names “ours” whether is was an asset or liability. Things were very financially difficult prior to our marriage and I didn’t want anyone coming after him for my debt. I wanted him to benefit in our marriage from my business and considered every penny I made “our” money even though it was in my name only. During our short marriage I bought a building. The ironic part is that had I not had the pre-nup he would have been entitled to half of the building. I couldn’t have afforded to buy him out. I set him free to be with the other woman.
I’m Catholic now and have my degree of nullity. I’d do it again and for the same reason.
I’m Catholic now and have my degree of nullity. I’d do it again and for the same reason.
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antioch25
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Could you please provide a link or reference to the cannon law which forbids per ups. Thank you.
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seagal
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Canon law 1102 is the one usually cited, it’s the only one I’m aware of. Any priest will tell you a pre-nup is an impediment to marriage.
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MJJean
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What about in cases where business partners/board of directors or family members insist and the couple is otherwise entering into the marriage validly?
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jilly4ski
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A prenuptial agreement, if drafted correctly could be fine, in limited circumstances like you mention. Namely children from different relationships which you intend to provide for on your death. As such the prenuptial agreement is essentially the future spouse giving up their rights to an asset that would normally become held jointly in the course of a marriage, such as a future inheritance, a savings fund, life insurance, or other such assets. These items can then be passed directly to these children without having to rely on the future spouse providing for these children in their will, (or if they don’t have a will, these children will potentially get nothing, since they are not the future spouse’s children and property would not pass to them via intestate statute).
If drawn up narrowly enough, these sort of prenuptial agreements could work. I think it is advised that you seek the counsel of a cannon lawyer to make sure the agreement does not create a validity issue.
If drawn up narrowly enough, these sort of prenuptial agreements could work. I think it is advised that you seek the counsel of a cannon lawyer to make sure the agreement does not create a validity issue.
I think not all prenups are inherently contradictory to can. 1102. There are some cases where the future spouses agreed to keep certain pre-marriage assets separate, if, for example, they agreed that certain properties remain within the control of the bride exclusively and she wants it to pass to her blood siblings or parents in case of her death, not her husband and children, and the husband agrees (not saying anything about the wisdom of such an agreement, but hey). In certain civil jurisdictions, all pre-marriage assets from both parties become joint unless separated beforehand. A pre-nuptial agreement is the only way to keep these assets legally separate. It has nothing to do with divorce or separation.
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MJJean
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Sure, this could apply to a family business. But I was also thinking about not so much monetary assets, but heirlooms and items of monetary value that are historically and sentimentally significant to the family.
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Brendan_64
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What would be the point of a pre-nuptial agreement if the couple are going to stay together until death? A Catholic marriage is not open to the option of what happens in the case of a divorce, so how would a pre-nuptial agreement even be a consideration.
If a person is making provision for what happens in the case of the marriage ending in divorce, then the person is not promising to stay married to the other person until death, therefore the marriage vows are false and the marriage is invalid.
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Hoosier_Daddy
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Only because you did this to me the other day.
It is not true that the Church assumes ALL marriages are valid.
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Hoosier_Daddy
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Yeah, you probably should start your own thread.
There are many issues in your posts but I also would like to point out that if you are “going through” an annulment. You should not be staying at anyones house on the weekends or talking of marriage. I urge you to really look at the way you are viewing marriage with prenups and the annulment process.
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Hoosier_Daddy
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I may be misunderstanding you but are you saying you would do something again even if the Church said not to?
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