Question Directed at My Fellow Trads

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samurai333

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Hey all, im sure that the NO supporters (heck probably even my fellow Trads too) are sick of so many discussions about Traditionalism. That being said Im gonna start another one! I would consider myself a Traditionalist Catholic, but not SSPX or one of those strange Sedevacantists. I support the FSSP and similar organizations. So, even though my preference goes to the TLM, I am ok with Novus Ordo Masses celebrated reverently.

Whenever I talk to my Traditionalist friends, it seems the conversation degrades into *****ing about the NO, and whats wrong with the church. Although I obviously have some theological issues with the NO, particularly if celebrated sloppily, as it sadly is far too often, I am not trying to debate the relative pluses and minuses of OF vs. EF.

Getting to the point: how can one remain true to Traditional spirituality and keep an arms length from modernism, whilst not succumbing to an elitist pride or a cold pharasetical adherance to the letter of the law that I notice in many trads (especially myself)? When I am at an NO Mass I always get caught up in complaining about the OCP music, the modernistic architecture and stained glass, the “softness” of many priests homilies. And I am not saying that all NO Masses are like this, I know some NO priests who seem like far better Catholics than some Trad priests I know, I am just saying that many Masses are like this. I do not want to have a hard heart about it, so if anyone can give some sound advice it would be appreciated.

God Bless!
 
samurai333 said:
Getting to the point: how can one remain true to Traditional spirituality and keep an arms length from modernism, whilst not succumbing to an elitist pride or a cold pharasetical adherance to the letter of the law that I notice in many trads (especially myself)? When I am at an NO Mass I always get caught up in complaining about the OCP music, the modernistic architecture and stained glass, the “softness” of many priests homilies. And I am not saying that all NO Masses are like this, I know some NO priests who seem like far better Catholics than some Trad priests I know, I am just saying that many Masses are like this. I do not want to have a hard heart about it, so if anyone can give some sound advice it would be appreciated.

God Bless!
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I sure do know what you mean. While I am not a traditionalist of any kind, I do find myself very distracted at Mass very often. The music seems so awful (not the way it is played, but the choice), and the electric guitars and drums are just so poundingly loud, and the homilies about Zen Buddhism can be so silly, and so on. Often it just seems that there are no reverent Masses anywhere around here, and it really does start to wear me down. At those times I find it harder and harder to really look forward to Mass, and to stay focussed at all when there, and then I know that pride has really gotten me around the neck. I know that regardless of what goes on, Christ is present in that room and is there for me. I just can’t manage to get myself around it, and that is all about me. I am not sure where one crosses over the line from orthodox to zealot, but I know that I am spending far too much time dancing around it.

What can be done about it? I only know that regular confession and reception of communion seem to help me a lot, and I am much more in the moment at Mass that way. I also look forward to it more in those times. Beyond that, prayer would surely be the proper start. Maybe you would consider mentioning me in yours? I will surely think of you in mine.

Yours in Christ,

Patrick
 
samurai333 said:
Hey all, im sure that the NO supporters (heck probably even my fellow Trads too) are sick of so many discussions about Traditionalism. That being said Im gonna start another one! I would consider myself a Traditionalist Catholic, but not SSPX or one of those strange Sedevacantists. I support the FSSP and similar organizations. So, even though my preference goes to the TLM, I am ok with Novus Ordo Masses celebrated reverently.

Whenever I talk to my Traditionalist friends, it seems the conversation degrades into *****ing about the NO, and whats wrong with the church. Although I obviously have some theological issues with the NO, particularly if celebrated sloppily, as it sadly is far too often, I am not trying to debate the relative pluses and minuses of OF vs. EF.

Getting to the point: how can one remain true to Traditional spirituality and keep an arms length from modernism, whilst not succumbing to an elitist pride or a cold pharasetical adherance to the letter of the law that I notice in many trads (especially myself)? When I am at an NO Mass I always get caught up in complaining about the OCP music, the modernistic architecture and stained glass, the “softness” of many priests homilies. And I am not saying that all NO Masses are like this, I know some NO priests who seem like far better Catholics than some Trad priests I know, I am just saying that many Masses are like this. I do not want to have a hard heart about it, so if anyone can give some sound advice it would be appreciated.

God Bless!
Click to expand...
Interesting post. I think time spent at Mass, in front of the Blessed Sacrament and in prayer are your greatest resources against getting sucked into the “Traditionalist” (or any other) extreme.

Work on focusing HARD during the Mass on what’s taking place atop the ambo and altar. You’ll know when you are sufficiently focused – Mass will seem like 5 minutes and you’ll often consider attending a second one on Sundays. What you will no longer remember are those who held hands or employed the orans position.

Eschew things that seem extreme – that just don’t feel right. Stay away from myopic environments that continually focus on the negative.

Try to use the correct terminology – it’s the Mass of Pope Paul VI or the Pauline Mass and NOT the “Novus Ordo” or especially the “NO” Mass. That is not only inflammatory, it also inaccurate. The Church does not use this terminology to define the OF of the Mass. If you find yourself digging for an obscure reference where the Church DID use the term “Novus Ordo” then rest assured you are headed down the wrong path.

Most of all give thanks to God for providing you with the pause that caused you to start this topic. Far too many have no idea just how far off track they have become and it’s a very sad thing.
 
samurai333 said:
Hey all, im sure that the NO supporters (heck probably even my fellow Trads too) are sick of so many discussions about Traditionalism. That being said Im gonna start another one! I would consider myself a Traditionalist Catholic, but not SSPX or one of those strange Sedevacantists. I support the FSSP and similar organizations. So, even though my preference goes to the TLM, I am ok with Novus Ordo Masses celebrated reverently.

Whenever I talk to my Traditionalist friends, it seems the conversation degrades into *****ing about the NO, and whats wrong with the church. Although I obviously have some theological issues with the NO, particularly if celebrated sloppily, as it sadly is far too often, I am not trying to debate the relative pluses and minuses of OF vs. EF.

Getting to the point: how can one remain true to Traditional spirituality and keep an arms length from modernism, whilst not succumbing to an elitist pride or a cold pharasetical adherance to the letter of the law that I notice in many trads (especially myself)? When I am at an NO Mass I always get caught up in complaining about the OCP music, the modernistic architecture and stained glass, the “softness” of many priests homilies. And I am not saying that all NO Masses are like this, I know some NO priests who seem like far better Catholics than some Trad priests I know, I am just saying that many Masses are like this. I do not want to have a hard heart about it, so if anyone can give some sound advice it would be appreciated.

God Bless!
Click to expand...
We can debate the merits of the EF versus the OF, Catholic culture, the state of the Church, etc. and still be civil and obedient.

Don’t buy into the attempts at censorship people from both sides level at each other. We just need to have honest discussions without rhetoric and ad hominem attacks.
 
cothrige said:
I sure do know what you mean. While I am not a traditionalist of any kind, I do find myself very distracted at Mass very often. The music seems so awful (not the way it is played, but the choice), and the electric guitars and drums are just so poundingly loud, and the homilies about Zen Buddhism can be so silly, and so on. Often it just seems that there are no reverent Masses anywhere around here, and it really does start to wear me down. At those times I find it harder and harder to really look forward to Mass, and to stay focussed at all when there, and then I know that pride has really gotten me around the neck. I know that regardless of what goes on, Christ is present in that room and is there for me. I just can’t manage to get myself around it, and that is all about me. I am not sure where one crosses over the line from orthodox to zealot, but I know that I am spending far too much time dancing around it.

What can be done about it? I only know that regular confession and reception of communion seem to help me a lot, and I am much more in the moment at Mass that way. I also look forward to it more in those times. Beyond that, prayer would surely be the proper start. Maybe you would consider mentioning me in yours? I will surely think of you in mine.

Yours in Christ,

Patrick
Click to expand...
Well, I’d suggest reading Summorum Pontificum, if you haven’t already. The first step for me for going where I felt comfortable was coming to terms with what Pope Benedict described as our “legitimate aspirations.”

If you can’t find a TLM or a NOM that you can concentrate at, I don’t really have any advice.

I guess,

Move to St. Louis. 👍
 
Spiller said:
Interesting post. I think time spent at Mass, in front of the Blessed Sacrament and in prayer are your greatest resources against getting sucked into the “Traditionalist” (or any other) extreme.

Work on focusing HARD during the Mass on what’s taking place atop the ambo and altar. You’ll know when you are sufficiently focused – Mass will seem like 5 minutes and you’ll often consider attending a second one on Sundays. What you will no longer remember are those who held hands or employed the orans position.

Eschew things that seem extreme – that just don’t feel right. Stay away from myopic environments that continually focus on the negative.

Try to use the correct terminology – it’s the Mass of Pope Paul VI or the Pauline Mass and NOT the “Novus Ordo” or especially the “NO” Mass. That is not only inflammatory, it also inaccurate. The Church does not use this terminology to define the OF of the Mass. If you find yourself digging for an obscure reference where the Church DID use the term “Novus Ordo” then rest assured you are headed down the wrong path.

Most of all give thanks to God for providing you with the pause that caused you to start this topic. Far too many have no idea just how far off track they have become and it’s a very sad thing.
Click to expand...
This is a perfect example right here of a reactionary and defensive post.

You are not an ordained priest. You cannot definitively pronounce that any one individual is off track, or excommunicate anyone.

What would you have said to the then Cardinal Ratzinger, when “Spirit of the Liturgy” was written?
 
PrayforMallory said:
This is a perfect example right here of a reactionary and defensive post.

You are not an ordained priest. You cannot definitively pronounce that any one individual is off track, or excommunicate anyone.

What would you have said to the then Cardinal Ratzinger, when “Spirit of the Liturgy” was written?
Click to expand...
Umm, actually I belive our friend Spiller IS an ordained priest, bi-ritual no less - is that right spill?
 
LilyM said:
Umm, actually I belive our friend Spiller IS an ordained priest, bi-ritual no less - is that right spill?
Click to expand...
Oh wow.

I stand corrected then.

For some reason I thought you were an Eucharistic minister.

Fr., since you are ordained I apologize and retract my statement.
 
LilyM said:
Umm, actually I belive our friend Spiller IS an ordained priest, bi-ritual no less - is that right spill?
Click to expand...
Wait a minute. Didn’t he mention that the priest at the TLM had “his back turned to us,” or something like that?

I think you may be mistaken.

The point still stands though. Nobody on any of these forums can go around admonishing people unless they are ordained.

Deacon Ed is ordained, thus though I disagree with him, I hold his opinions in high esteem. Of course, I hold your opinion in pretty high esteem too. I just wish you’d rethink your opposition to the TLM, because I think you’ve hinted at an interest in it a few times in other threads.

If we are going to discuss Liturgy, let’s discuss liturgy, not whether or not people are sinners for advocating one Liturgy or another. With the liberalization of the traditional Mass, it raises some new questions that I think we ought to discuss.
 
PrayforMallory said:
Well, I’d suggest reading Summorum Pontificum, if you haven’t already. The first step for me for going where I felt comfortable was coming to terms with what Pope Benedict described as our “legitimate aspirations.”

If you can’t find a TLM or a NOM that you can concentrate at, I don’t really have any advice.

I guess,

Move to St. Louis. 👍
Click to expand...
I would suggest reading and praying on the Daily Mass Readings.
 
PrayforMallory said:
This is a perfect example right here of a reactionary and defensive post.

You are not an ordained priest. You cannot definitively pronounce that any one individual is off track, or excommunicate anyone.

What would you have said to the then Cardinal Ratzinger, when “Spirit of the Liturgy” was written?
Click to expand...
Get some help. 😦
 
PrayforMallory said:
Wait a minute. Didn’t he mention that the priest at the TLM had “his back turned to us,” or something like that?

I think you may be mistaken.

The point still stands though. Nobody on any of these forums can go around admonishing people unless they are ordained.

Deacon Ed is ordained, thus though I disagree with him, I hold his opinions in high esteem. Of course, I hold your opinion in pretty high esteem too. I just wish you’d rethink your opposition to the TLM, because I think you’ve hinted at an interest in it a few times in other threads.

If we are going to discuss Liturgy, let’s discuss liturgy, not whether or not people are sinners for advocating one Liturgy or another. With the liberalization of the traditional Mass, it raises some new questions that I think we ought to discuss.
Click to expand...
Luke 6:42 – “Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye.”
 
Spiller said:
Luke 6:42 – “Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye.”
Click to expand...
Why are we at odds all the time?

Do you think I’m judging you? I don’t mean to. I’m not into judging anyone, just encouraging the traditional movement.

Are you not judging me by suggesting I need to read the Scriptures (which I do, always)?

You are a faithful Catholic and if I’ve said otherwise in the past I apologize.
 
Spiller said:
I would suggest reading and praying on the Daily Mass Readings.
Click to expand...
So I guess they are mutually exclusive?

One can’t read the Mass readings and also the writings of the Pope?

Let’s have a consensus. Let’s together encourage this person to read both the Mass readings as well as Pope Benedict’s writings. He is the Pope, after all.
 
PrayforMallory said:
Wait a minute. Didn’t he mention that the priest at the TLM had “his back turned to us,” or something like that?

I think you may be mistaken.

The point still stands though. Nobody on any of these forums can go around admonishing people unless they are ordained.

Deacon Ed is ordained, thus though I disagree with him, I hold his opinions in high esteem. Of course, I hold your opinion in pretty high esteem too. I just wish you’d rethink your opposition to the TLM, because I think you’ve hinted at an interest in it a few times in other threads.

If we are going to discuss Liturgy, let’s discuss liturgy, not whether or not people are sinners for advocating one Liturgy or another. With the liberalization of the traditional Mass, it raises some new questions that I think we ought to discuss.
Click to expand...
Spill is bi-ritual, he must be a deacon or priest, lay people aren’t bi-ritual. And he may not be trained in the TLM and thus may (possibly) attend TLMs as a layperson rather than celebrating.

Spiller, are you a priest or deacon or not?
 
LilyM said:
Spill is bi-ritual, he must be a deacon or priest, lay people aren’t bi-ritual. And he may not be trained in the TLM and thus may (possibly) attend TLMs as a layperson rather than celebrating.

Spiller, are you a priest or deacon or not?
Click to expand...
Oh ok cool.
 
Spiller said:
Try to use the correct terminology – it’s the Mass of Pope Paul VI or the Pauline Mass and NOT the “Novus Ordo” or especially the “NO” Mass. That is not only inflammatory, it also inaccurate.
Click to expand...
How is Novus Ordo (Missae) inaccurate? Isn’t that what it is-- a New Order of the Mass?

What’s inaccurate is the term “Tridentine Mass” when used to imply that it was invented from scratch at Trent.
 
A priest or deacon who states their opinions on these forums have the same amount of authority as anyone of us. Unless they did it in an official teaching capacity.
 
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