Question Directed at My Fellow Trads

[LilyM]

A priest or deacon who states their opinions on these forums have the same amount of authority as anyone of us. Unless they did it in an official teaching capacity.

Well Mallory was questioning spiller’s right to comment based on the fact that he supposedly wasn’t ordained. So I just pointed out that in fact he was. I agree that in general the opinions of priests or deacons have no more weight than anyone else’s

 

[PrayforMallory]

Well Mallory was questioning spiller’s right to comment based on the fact that he supposedly wasn’t ordained. So I just pointed out that in fact he was. I agree that in general the opinions of priests or deacons have no more weight than anyone else’s

That’s fine, but I also heard he was an EEM, or whatever the abbreviation is.

Spiller, man of mystery, could you clear up your status for us?

And I wasn’t questioning his right to comment. He can state his perspective on liturgy, theology, etc., all he wants. He cannot, however, judge me personally for seeking the traditional sacraments and spreading awareness about them, which is what he was suggesting. He cannot judge me for never going to the Pauline Mass for the rest of my life, if I so wanted (which I DON’T want that-- I went to a Pauline Mass recently), he cannot judge me for trying to help other people seek it out, and he cannot judge me for having my children baptized, confirmed, married, and having myself buried, with the traditional means.

Fact is, Summorum Pontificum and the writings of the Holy Father are not going to be “put out of the Synagogue” on this forum.

 

[eelpis]

That’s fine, but I also heard he was an EEM, or whatever the abbreviation is.

Spiller, man of mystery, could you clear up your status for us?

And I wasn’t questioning his right to comment. He cannot judge me for seeking the traditional sacraments and spreading awareness about them, which is what he was suggesting. He cannot judge me for never going to the Pauline Mass for the rest of my life, if I so wanted (which I DON’T want that-- I went to a Pauline Mass recently), he cannot judge me for trying to help other people seek it out, and he cannot judge me for having my children baptized, confirmed, married, and having myself buried, with the traditional means.

Fact is, Summorum Pontificum and the writings of the Holy Father are not going to the back of the bus on this forum.

Of course he cannot no one can jugde you for enjoying your rights as a Catholic.

Keep up the spirit. .

 

[Cat]

Hey all, im sure that the NO supporters (heck probably even my fellow Trads too) are sick of so many discussions about Traditionalism. That being said Im gonna start another one! I would consider myself a Traditionalist Catholic, but not SSPX or one of those strange Sedevacantists. I support the FSSP and similar organizations. So, even though my preference goes to the TLM, I am ok with Novus Ordo Masses celebrated reverently.

Whenever I talk to my Traditionalist friends, it seems the conversation degrades into *****ing about the NO, and whats wrong with the church. Although I obviously have some theological issues with the NO, particularly if celebrated sloppily, as it sadly is far too often, I am not trying to debate the relative pluses and minuses of OF vs. EF.

Getting to the point: how can one remain true to Traditional spirituality and keep an arms length from modernism, whilst not succumbing to an elitist pride or a cold pharasetical adherance to the letter of the law that I notice in many trads (especially myself)? When I am at an NO Mass I always get caught up in complaining about the OCP music, the modernistic architecture and stained glass, the “softness” of many priests homilies. And I am not saying that all NO Masses are like this, I know some NO priests who seem like far better Catholics than some Trad priests I know, I am just saying that many Masses are like this. I do not want to have a hard heart about it, so if anyone can give some sound advice it would be appreciated.

God Bless!

This is such a good, humble post. Thank you.

I had these same struggles in the Protestant church. Many of you grieve the loss of the Catholic traditions. It has happened even more so in the Protestant sects. The church “worship service” that I loved as a child and teenager has become a “worship experience.” You never know what to expect. And almost all the music is pop rock. And many of the sermons deal with “needs-based theology” rather than the Bible.

And there is no “GIRM” or any other documents to refer to, neither is there a Bishop to appeal to. In the Protestant sects, you take whatever they give you. But at least if it gets to be too much, you can leave and find another sect. But that’s a lot harder than it sounds–it’s hard to leave friends, family, and traditions behind and do the Church Search. It wrenches your heart.

Anyway, I commend you for trying to get your mind off all the flaws in Masses. I believe that harboring a critical spirit will lead to bitterness in your soul, and eventually this “root of bitterness” will grow into a plant of cyncism and skepticism, which will lead to your departure from the True Church.

Catholics believe this will never happen to them, but look around at all the non-practicing Catholics out there. I’ve heard very large estimates of the number of Catholics who were born Catholic, but never attend Mass.

Many of them have fallen into sin, of course. But I believe the sin that led to their leaving the Church was finding fault with the Church and the Mass. It may have started out as righteous anger over something that was legitimately abusive. But as you concentrate more and more on abuses and keeping an “abuse list,” you find yourself criticizing non-essentials based on your personal preference.

Once you start criticizing Mass based on personal preferences, it’s only a matter of time before you walk out the door. There have been dozens of posts on this forum from Catholics who did just that. How many times have your read “I stood up and walked out the door when they started doing…”

Those posts make me shudder. So often, the thread goes on to prove that the Mass was valid and licit. But they walked out on Jesus because of their own personal preferences. They allowed themselves to become more important than Jesus.

So as I said, I commend your efforts to become less critical and more humble.

I haven’t been Catholic very long, and our OF Masses are reverent and for the most part, abuse-free. So it’s hard for me to know what to suggest. I think that if you look at Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, and allow Him to look at you, you might find that everything else just grows “strangely dim”, as the old hymn says:

O soul, are you weary and troubled?
No light in the darkness you see?
There’s a light for a look at the Savior,
And life more abundant and free!

Refrain

Turn your eyes upon Jesus,
Look full in His wonderful face,
And the things of earth will grow strangely dim,
In the light of His glory and grace.

Through death into life everlasting
He passed, and we follow Him there;
Over us sin no more hath dominion—
For more than conquerors we are!

Refrain

His Word shall not fail you—He promised;
Believe Him, and all will be well:
Then go to a world that is dying,
His perfect salvation to tell!

Refrain

(Helen H. Lemmel, 1922)

 

[WILKM]

This is such a good, humble post. Thank you.

I had these same struggles in the Protestant church. Many of you grieve the loss of the Catholic traditions. It has happened even more so in the Protestant sects. The church “worship service” that I loved as a child and teenager has become a “worship experience.” You never know what to expect. And almost all the music is pop rock. And many of the sermons deal with “needs-based theology” rather than the Bible.

And there is no “GIRM” or any other documents to refer to, neither is there a Bishop to appeal to. In the Protestant sects, you take whatever they give you. But at least if it gets to be too much, you can leave and find another sect. But that’s a lot harder than it sounds–it’s hard to leave friends, family, and traditions behind and do the Church Search. It wrenches your heart.

Anyway, I commend you for trying to get your mind off all the flaws in Masses. I believe that harboring a critical spirit will lead to bitterness in your soul, and eventually this “root of bitterness” will grow into a plant of cyncism and skepticism, which will lead to your departure from the True Church.

Catholics believe this will never happen to them, but look around at all the non-practicing Catholics out there. I’ve heard very large estimates of the number of Catholics who were born Catholic, but never attend Mass.

Many of them have fallen into sin, of course. But I believe the sin that led to their leaving the Church was finding fault with the Church and the Mass. It may have started out as righteous anger over something that was legitimately abusive. But as you concentrate more and more on abuses and keeping an “abuse list,” you find yourself criticizing non-essentials based on your personal preference.

Once you start criticizing Mass based on personal preferences, it’s only a matter of time before you walk out the door. There have been dozens of posts on this forum from Catholics who did just that. How many times have your read “I stood up and walked out the door when they started doing…”

Those posts make me shudder. So often, the thread goes on to prove that the Mass was valid and licit. But they walked out on Jesus because of their own personal preferences. They allowed themselves to become more important than Jesus.

So as I said, I commend your efforts to become less critical and more humble.

I haven’t been Catholic very long, and our OF Masses are reverent and for the most part, abuse-free. So it’s hard for me to know what to suggest. I think that if you look at Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, and allow Him to look at you, you might find that everything else just grows “strangely dim”, as the old hymn says:

O soul, are you weary and troubled?
No light in the darkness you see?
There’s a light for a look at the Savior,
And life more abundant and free!

Refrain

Turn your eyes upon Jesus,
Look full in His wonderful face,
And the things of earth will grow strangely dim,
In the light of His glory and grace.

Through death into life everlasting
He passed, and we follow Him there;
Over us sin no more hath dominion—
For more than conquerors we are!

Refrain

His Word shall not fail you—He promised;
Believe Him, and all will be well:
Then go to a world that is dying,
His perfect salvation to tell!

Refrain

(Helen H. Lemmel, 1922)

Cat, what a beautiful post!

I have been on various forums now for over four years and sometimes I wonder why! I can understand the Protestant versus Catholic debates but never in my wildest dreams did I ever know that there were problems within the Church between traditionalists and non-traditionalists.

I have absolutely no problem with people preferring the Traditionalist Masses to the NO Masses but I get so mad when I am told that I am wrong for being a NO Catholic, that the Mass is invalid, etc. etc. I also get so mad when many people think they are theologians and know more than the Pope and criticise him, etc. etc.

I am not a canon lawyer. Actually I lived a very happy Catholic life for 45 years without having to read canon law. LOL. It is not necessary for a Catholic to know it. Canon law cannot be interpreted by the individual or a group of the faithful. I think it is Canon law 116 that says that canon law can only be interpreted by the canon law maker – meaning the Church itself.

I am 45 and have only missed maybe a dozen Masses in my whole life, due to illness or childbirth and during a period in my late teens, early twenties where I lapsed in the faith but came back very quickly. I go to plenty different Masses and not only has it not “endangered” my faith, it has sustained and deepened my faith. Praise be to you, Lord Jesus Christ. I love the Masses I go to and have no complaints. Only occasionally have I found screaming children whose parents do absolutely nothing annoying in other Parishes and the odd sermon here and there which is annoying.

I seriously doubt that if someone goes to a few Masses they find abusive it will “endanger their faith.”

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Getting to the point: how can one remain true to Traditional spirituality and keep an arms length from modernism,

In my opinion, the best way is to avoid it. Modernism and liberalism are some of the most subtle heresies. When you really contemplate them, the errors are so subtle that is takes a very great grace not to be deceived by them. And to receive that special grace, we must to our part by avoiding the occaisions of sin.

During the Arian crisis, St. Basil, who lived at the time, said that those who were strong in the faith avoided the local places of worship and assembled in the desert. He sais that did this because “they would have nothing to do with the wicked Arian levean”. In my opinion, we should do likewise.

whilst not succumbing to an elitist pride or a cold pharasetical adherance to the letter of the law that I notice in many trads (especially myself)?

That is a common temptation. We can easily think that we are better than the “Novus Ordos”. The way to counter that temptation is to consider how often we have offended God and how undeserving we are of the grace to be able to see what so many cannot. That will keep us both humble and thankful. It should also make us strive to be as holy as we can in order to return proper thanks to God for giving us so underserved a grace.

When I am at an NO Mass I always get caught up in complaining about the OCP music, the modernistic architecture and stained glass, the “softness” of many priests homilies. And I am not saying that all NO Masses are like this, I know some NO priests who seem like far better Catholics than some Trad priests I know, I am just saying that many Masses are like this. I do not want to have a hard heart about it, so if anyone can give some sound advice it would be appreciated.

The more we love something, the more we will hate the contrary. We are supposed to love good and hate evil (not our evil neighbor, but evil itself). If we love God and His Church, we should hate sacrilege and things that destroy the Church. There is nothing wrong with being detested by the corruption that is found in most Churches today. It s called holy zeal.

Remember that Jesus Himself chased the money changers out of the Temple. The Bible says “teh zeal for His Father’s house” made him do it. The worst thing would be for us to become indifferent to the sacrileges.

Always try to keep a good balance, be friendly, but never comprimise the truth.