Question for all Muslims

[josie_L]

Prophecies about the Messiah’s mission:

-His way would be prepared by a precursor (Isaiah 40: 3-5, NKJ): "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare the way of the Lord; make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be exalted and every mountain and hill brought low; the crooked places shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.

-Malachi 3:1 “Behold. I send my messenger to prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the Lord of hosts.”

"This role was fulfilled by John the Baptist, Matthew explicitly cites Isaiah (Matthew 3: 1-3): "In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, ‘Repent, for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand.’ For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah when he said, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare the way of the Lord; make his paths straight.’ "

-He would heal the sick (Isaiah 35: 4-7): "Be strong, fear not! Behold, your God will come with vengeance, with the recompense of God. He will come and save you. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf unstopped; then shall the lame man leap like a hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing for joy. For waters shall break forth in the wilderness, and streams in the desert; the burning sand shall become a pool, and the thirsty ground springs of water. . . "

-He would free the captives (Isaiah 61; 1-2): “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me to bring good tidings to the afflicted; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound; to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn.”

"Jesus explicitly applied this prophecy to Himself in Luke 4: 16-21:

And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up; and he went to the synagogue, as his custom was, on the sabbath day. And she stood up to read; and there was given to him the book of the prophet Isaiah. He opened the book and found the place where it was written, “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me because the Lord has anointed (the Christ) me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.” And he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. And he began to say to them, "Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing. "

-Where He would live (Isaiah 9: 1-2): “But there will be no gloom for her that was in anguish. In the former time he brought into contempt the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the latter time he will make glorious the way of the sea, the land beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations. The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined.”

"This was fulfilled when Jesus dwelt in Capernaum, which is the land of Zebulun and Naphtali. This is made explicit in Matthew 4:13-16: And leaving Nazareth he went and dwelt in Capernaum by the sea, in the territory of Zebulun and Naphtali, that what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah might fulfilled: 'The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, toward the sea, across the Jordan, Galiliee of the Gentiles - the people who sat in darkness have seen a great light, and for those who sat in the region and shadow of death light has dawned. ’ "

To be continued . . .

All the above was taken from Roy Schoeman’s “Salvation is From the Jews”

 

[Stephentlig]

to me it’s about as close to real as ‘The Book Of Mormon’ is to a Roman Catholic

Sweeping statement to make.

Yet the roman catholic doctrine refutes the book of morman in the blink of an eye.

only problem with you at the moment my dear sister is that you cannot refute the The New Testament.

Of course, its not easy converting a person whos mind is already made up, and it is not me who does the converting but Jesus, therefore plenty of prayer and fasting is needed.

by the way, just out of curiosity, have you read the New Testament?

God bless you
Stephen.

 

[Kaninchen]

Sweeping statement to make.

I can’t imagine why.

Yet the roman catholic doctrine refutes the book of morman in the blink of an eye.

To your own satisfaction, not to that of its believers.

only problem with you at the moment my dear sister is that you cannot refute the The New Testament.

It’s not vaguely necessary for me to even try to do so, since it’s not important to me that you shouldn’t believe in it. You can’t ‘prove’ it, I can’t ‘refute’ it, it’s in the nature of religious texts.

Of course, its not easy converting a person whos mind is already made up, and it is not me who does the converting but Jesus, therefore plenty of prayer and fasting is needed.

I’m sure a Mormon would say something similar.

by the way, just out of curiosity, have you read the New Testament?

Yes.

 

[josie_L]

-When He came many would resist believing in Him (Isaiah 6: 9-10): “Go, and say to this people: ‘Hear and hear, but do not understand; see and see, but do not perceive.’ Make the heart of this people fat, and their ears heavy, and sut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.”

"Jesus Himself applied this verse to those who heard Him but did not become disciples: (Matthew 13: 14-15): “With them indeed is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which says: ’ You shall indeed hear but never understand, and you shall indeed see but never perceive. For this people’s heart has grown dull, and their ears are heavy of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should perceive with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn for me to heal them.”

-His character was prophesied (Isaiah 9:6): "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called **“Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.’ **”

Prophesies of the Passion and death:

"In Chapter 9, Zechariah prophecies that the Messiah will enter Jerusalem in triumph, riding on the colt of an *** (Zechariah 9: 9): “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem! Lo, your king comes to you, truimphant and victorious is he, humble and riding on an ***, on a colt the foal of an ***.”

"This prophecy was fulfilled on Palm Sunday and explicitly cited as such in John 12:12-16:

The next day a great crowd who had come to the feast heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem. So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying, “Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!” And Jesus found a young *** and sat upon it; as it is written, “Fear not, daughter of Zion; behold, your king is coming, sitting on an ***'s colt!” His disciples did not understand this at first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that this had been written of him and had been done to him.

"Zechariah 12: 10 is a straightforward reference to the crucifixion of Jesus: “When they look on him whom they have pierced (with nails), they shall mourn of him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born.”

"And if one asks him, 'What are these wounds on your back? (scourging of Jesus) he will say, ‘The wounds I received in the house of my friends.’ "

"The book of Wisdom contains a beautiful, profound prophecy what will cause the Messiah to be persecuted (Wisdom 2: 12-24):

" Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training."

" He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord.".

" Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life.

" for if the righteous man is God’s son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries."

" Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected."

“and they did not know the secret purposes of God, nor hope for the wages of holiness, nor discern the prize for blameless souls;”

to be continued . . .

All the above was taken from Roy Shoeman’s “Salvation is From the Jews.”

 

[Stephentlig]

To your own satisfaction, not to that of its believers.

Wrong, on one occasion one morman finally agreed that all my biblical references where correct, yet, due to his stubborn mentality and refusal to bow his head and accept the truth he stayed where he was .

It’s not vaguely necessary for me to even try to do so, since it’s not important to me that you shouldn’t believe in it. You can’t ‘prove’ it, I can’t ‘refute’ it, it’s in the nature of religious texts.

Nope I cant prove it, but the New Testament does.
If you cannot refute it, then why do you not accept it?
Like the Morman I met before, is it due to an unwillingness to budge even though everything therein proves correct?

I’m sure a Mormon would say something similar.

I’m sure all people of all religions would say the same thing.

Yes.

Then I invite you to tell me where you find fault? however you can reject my invitation if you like.

God bless
Stephen.

 

[Ran]

The Bible contains over 60 distinct prophecies of Jesus Christ 1000 years before hand. My question is: what is the single most remarkable prophecy that Muhammad made that was fulfilled?

Prophecies? Jesus feed throusands with a couple of fish and a couple loafs of bread. But during the year of hunger outside of Meca Muhammad and his followers had the eat the dung of animals. I see neither prophecies or miracles from Muhammad (may the judgement and mercy of Jesus Christ be upon him).

What one can expect from the Muhammad and his religion is expressed in the following quote from history.
Manuel II Palaiologos:

Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

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Prophecies? Jesus feed throusands with a couple of fish and a couple loafs of bread. .

So what ??? God allowed some of His slaves to perform miracles . It did not make them equal to their Master .

Prophet (pbuh) ate dung of animals ? Give your sources , pl. Muhammed (pbuh) performed miracles when God allowed him to do so . Just like Jesus (pbuh) , Muhammed (pbuh) had no power to do anything of his own.

 

[Kaninchen]

If you cannot refute it, then why do you not accept it?

I can’t refute Harry Potter but I don’t believe in that either.

Like the Morman I met before, is it due to an unwillingness to budge even though everything therein proves correct?

Since I don’t accept the ‘New Testament’ as any kind of reality, the question of accepting it as proof of what it says is rather irrelevant, isn’t it?

Then I invite you to tell me where you find fault? however you can reject my invitation if you like.

I’ve now said, several times, that I regard it as a concoction.

There’s a paradigmatic problem that I’ve pointed out here in the past.

Christians, in a sense, read the Tanakh ‘backwards’ - you start with Jesus, as portrayed in your scriptures, seek out bits of text that appear, or can be manipulated to appear, to point to him as a central religious ‘fact’. Jews read the Tanakh, in a sense, ‘forwards’ - there’s Torah (the Law), the Prophets and the Writings that help understand Torah.

Jesus doesn’t ‘emerge’ from the Tanakh, the Tanakh is a means of ‘establishing’ Jesus. Now, to a Christian, there are a series of ‘one-to-one’ relationships between ‘events’ in the New Testament and the text of the Tanakh, to a non-Christian, the text of the New Testament was written with the purpose of trying to establish such ‘one-to-one’ relationships.

Please accept that I’ve spent many years on message boards arguing about your Savior, I’m not a neophyte and I’ve no intention of wrangling about virgins or Suffering Servants. Been there, done that.

 

[tomarin]

Prophecies? Jesus feed throusands with a couple of fish and a couple loafs of bread. But during the year of hunger outside of Meca Muhammad and his followers had the eat the dung of animals.

Christians believe Jesus was God. Muslims believe Mohammad was just a man. You can’t expect a mere human being to perform miracles.

What one can expect from the Muhammad and his religion is expressed in the following quote from history.

What about “there is to be no compulsion in religion”? Don’t the two, at the very least, cancel each other out?

 

[Stephentlig]

I can’t refute Harry Potter but I don’t believe in that either.

but the catholic doctrine can refute harry potter.

7 But avoid foolish and old wives’ fables: and exercise thyself unto godliness.

Since I don’t accept the ‘New Testament’ as any kind of reality, the question of accepting it as proof of what it says is rather irrelevant, isn’t it?

 

[Kaninchen]

but the catholic doctrine can refute harry potter.

Rather difficult to ‘refute’ fiction, I think you’ll find, because it’s, well, fiction.

Not irrelevant if it points to to the truth.

You’ve decided what’s true from the outset - ie that the text is ‘true’.

if you were reading it fowards you would of recognised your Messiah.

Not really, no. Not even vaguely.

I feel that what your saying is claiming that Christians have forced scripture to make it mean what they want it to mean, which in fact is what Protestents do with scirpture, as Catholic apologists all too often reveal their error time and time again.( Peter: 3:16 )’‘16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.’’

You’re using, as proof of what you’re saying, a text that I don’t accept as proof of anything.

The questions you must ask yourself is, that Saul was such a hardcore Jewish man,

Again, you’re using as ‘proof’ a text I don’t accept as ‘proof’ of anything whatsoever.

who was persecuting the Christians until God made a divine intervention and changed his whole life, he then became one of the greatest apostles, why would such men like him die for a lie?

In a world that, rather recently, provided examples like David Koresh and Jim Jones of what people will do when they believe?

also with all the photographic, physical and scientfic proof of many Miracles worked through the Catholic church by our Lord Jesus, it seems hard to comprehend the Jewish position.

Such lack of comprehension, the ‘sheer impossibility of believing that’ is often mutual between believers in different religions.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Jesus doesn’t ‘emerge’ from the Tanakh, the Tanakh is a means of ‘establishing’ Jesus. Now, to a Christian, there are a series of ‘one-to-one’ relationships between ‘events’ in the New Testament and the text of the Tanakh, to a non-Christian, the text of the New Testament was written with the purpose of trying to establish such ‘one-to-one’ relationships.

I can appreciate your position and think it reasonable from this view point of history, but only if you disregard a number of non-biblical things so I am curious what you think of these:

1. Less than 40 years after Christ the Temple was destroyed and Israel ceased to exist as a nation until 61 years ago when it was created by the UN.
2. I don’t think a new Jewsish prophet has been identified since before the Temples destruction until today.
3. Arguably every human being alive today has heard of I AM.

If you think the New Testament is a concoction and illigitiamate from a Jewish standpoint how do you explain the silence from God for nearly 2000 years; no prophets, no Temple, and however imperfectly you think it, the God of Abraham is known to all nations despite the silence to the Jews.

You seem to suggest at least 1500-2000 years of active interaction between God and Jews before Christ is a valid proof for God, but a 3 year ministry by a man named Jesus is an invalid proof of God when Christianity has brought the knowledge of God to all people.

Setting aside the fact you do not believe the Christian message; do you not believe the reality of the silence to the Jewish people for tens of centuries, the lack of a Temple and inablity to practice as prescribed, and that Christains number a third of all people while Jews remain less than 0.002% of world population?

 

[Kaninchen]

I can appreciate your position and think it reasonable from this view point of history, but only if you disregard a number of non-biblical things so I am curious what you think of these:

1. Less than 40 years after Christ the Temple was destroyed and Israel ceased to exist as a nation until 61 years ago when it was created by the UN.

Warring against the Romans wasn’t ever a good idea but we came out of it better than a lot of people, like the Carthaginians!

1. I don’t think a new Jewsish prophet has been identified since before the Temples destruction until today.

I think there’s a common misapprehension about the relationship between Christianity and Judaism:

a. Christianity does not equal ‘Judaism + Jesus’; and
b. Judaism does not equal ‘Christianity - Jesus’.

Central to this is the fact that the two religions do not ‘work’ in the same way - we have Torah/Prophets/Writings, we have Oral Torah, we have the sages ancient and (even) more modern, the focus is on what it means to ‘live a good life’ - Torah through the lens of the others (in order of importance). Christians have an entirely different focus: Jesus, ‘salvation’, heaven and hell, etc and a different dynamic in relationship to text.

To oversimplify horribly, what is key to ‘belief’ in Christianity can be just ‘interesting insights’ to be juxtaposed against other ‘interesting insights’ in Judaism. The fact that there have been no prophets for a long time means not a lot.

1. Arguably every human being alive today has heard of I AM.

That’s not a Jewish ‘problem’ in the same way as it’s a Christian ‘problem’.

If you think the New Testament is a concoction and illigitiamate from a Jewish standpoint how do you explain the silence from God for nearly 2000 years; no prophets, no Temple, and however imperfectly you think it, the God of Abraham is known to all nations despite the silence to the Jews.

God gave us Torah and told us to ‘get on with it’, we’ve ‘gotten on with it’.

You seem to suggest at least 1500-2000 years of active interaction between God and Jews before Christ is a valid proof for God, but a 3 year ministry by a man named Jesus is an invalid proof of God when Christianity has brought the knowledge of God to all people.

Again, that’s not a ‘Jewish problem’.

Setting aside the fact you do not believe the Christian message; do you not believe the reality of the silence to the Jewish people for tens of centuries, the lack of a Temple and inablity to practice as prescribed, and that Christains number a third of all people while Jews remain less than 0.002% of world population?

God gave us Torah, told us to ‘get on with it’, we’ve ‘gotten on with it’, God didn’t say ‘convert the nations’, he said ‘get on with it’ - Christians set out to convert, we ‘fill law libraries’ and row with one another, it’s what we’re supposed to do

 

[Sam_777]

God gave us Torah, told us to ‘get on with it’, we’ve ‘gotten on with it’, God didn’t say ‘convert the nations’, he said ‘get on with it’ - Christians set out to convert, we ‘fill law libraries’ and row with one another, it’s what we’re supposed to do

Hi Kaninchen ,

That Jewish concept is exactly the reason for (Quran 2:159):
“Those who conceal the Clear (Signs) We have sent down, and the Guidance, after we have made it clear for the People in the Book, on them shall be Allah’s curse, and the curse of those entitled to curse.”
Muhammed claims that Allah revealed that verse because the Jews were hiding Allah’s words.

Tell me Kaninchen, what should other nations do if you want to “get on with it”, who will tell other nations about the existence of God!

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

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That Jewish concept is exactly the reason for

Quran 2:159

“Those who conceal the Clear (Signs) We have sent down, and the Guidance, after we have made it clear for the People in the Book, on them shall be Allah’s curse, and the curse of those entitled to curse.”

What ??? Sam , you are giving example from Quran to a Jew ??? What has Quran has to do anything in such conversation ??

Neither you or nor the Jewish participants believe in it . Why not give example from your own holy book ?

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" (Matthew 23 ; verses 13-33).

“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.” (Matt 23:13 NKJV)

 

[Kaninchen]

Hi Kaninchen ,

That Jewish concept is exactly the reason for (Quran 2:159):
“Those who conceal the Clear (Signs) We have sent down, and the Guidance, after we have made it clear for the People in the Book, on them shall be Allah’s curse, and the curse of those entitled to curse.”
Muhammed claims that Allah revealed that verse because the Jews were hiding Allah’s words.

Tell me Kaninchen, what should other nations do if you want to “get on with it”, who will tell other nations about the existence of God!

It’s for God to decide what arrangements he wishes to make with other peoples, not for us.

 

[Sam_777]

It’s for God to decide what arrangements he wishes to make with other peoples, not for us.

So that means he should send non Jewish Prophets for them?

 

[Kaninchen]

So that means he should send non Jewish Prophets for them?

It’s entirely up to God what he does.

 

[Sam_777]

It’s entirely up to God what he does.

That is why he sent His Word to us, to bring all nations to His heavenly kingdom not just the Jews or the Muslims, because no earthy prophet could have done that.

May YHWH show you His true path on day Kaninchen :shamrock2:

This is for you:
vimeo.com/4127585

 

[Kaninchen]

May YHWH show you His true path on day Kaninchen :shamrock2:

You can’t imagine how ‘tired’ such comments are.

Do you grow much shamrock in Saudi?