Question for all protestants

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It’s not about sinners, it’s about teaching a false belief as the head of a massive Church and people being allowed to separate themselves from such leadership.
Exactly what happened in Galatians and Acts right?

Peter was sympathetic to the Judaizers and was acting hypocritically.

So then in Acts it states that due to Peter’s erroneous teachings, Paul separated from the church and founded the first church of Paul.

Is that what happened?

No…they employed Matt 18. They assembled the apostles and church leaders and settled the manner.

Something that does not happen in most protestant denominations.

Now you are right when controversy arises they separate and break and divide. Now hundreds of years of divisions leave it nearly impossible to find the original protestant church and the truth is so fractured it’s in discernible.
 
Christianity is now in amazing shape, we have missionaries of all denominations spreading the Gospel. If a Church condones horrific acts we can all speak out against it.
The problem lies in:

Who defines horrific acts and who speaks against it and with what consequence.

Let’s say I start up my church, the first church of Jesus the alien abductor.

I then teach the ancient alien theory and adopt “the chariots of the gods” as a supplemental holy book.

Who is anyone to speak against it? It’s there opinion against mine?

If someone does, what consequence is there for me?

The answer is no one and no consequence. And my movement grows and in 200 years may be a dominant force in Christianity. This has happened hundreds of times in the last 500 years already.

But when there is one unified church, such heresies are dealt with and clearly shown to be outside of Christianity, and anyone who holds such beliefs is as much a Christian as a Buddhist.

This is why the heresies of the first 1500 years dropped off over and over. Yet today we have hundreds of heresies thriving and growing.
 
This is why the heresies of the first 1500 years dropped off over and over. Yet today we have hundreds of heresies thriving and growing.
I think that since the Reformation/Renaissance some ancient heresies have been resurrected from Hell, so to speak. Arianism denying the divinity of Christ (JW’s and some others). Nestorianism dividing Christ into two persons, as some evangelical low-church types do when they speak that Mary gave birth to Jesus the man.
 
I think that since the Reformation/Renaissance some ancient heresies have been resurrected from Hell, so to speak. Arianism denying the divinity of Christ (JW’s and some others). Nestorianism dividing Christ into two persons, as some evangelical low-church types do when they speak that Mary gave birth to Jesus the man.
Absolutely.

There’s a running joke in Protestantism… “What resurrected heresy do you belong to” I used to say it jokingly in my ignorance.
 
…in some form?
Baptism is necessary and can take several forms. Off the top of my head: Water, (either by immersion or pouring), Blood (dying for Christ) and Desire (wanting to be baptised but dying before that could be achieved.)
You don’t know my views, and this is another dodge. Honestly I don’t get why this is so hard to answer, and I’m not even the one who originally asked it! It’s baffling that I have two people now who have posted that I should already know or don’t need to know… what is this?
Baptism can take place as an adult, or as an infant in a Christian family. Baptism is normally via water and can be by immersion or pouring. I’m not sure about sprinkling. Other forms of baptism, as I’ve mentioned above, are by blood and by desire when normal water baptism is not available.

Now, I have a question or point for you. Although I do not have the entire thread before me as I type this I recall something about infants who die without baptism going to Heaven. Now, that may very well be and I think probably is. But it isn’t that they are without original sin and do not need a savior. Rather, unbaptised infants are saved via Christ as their unseen savior. Remember what Christ said: no one comes to the father but by him.

Same goes for people who have never heard of Christ. Some may be saved but it isn’t because of their works or their non-Christian religions. Rather, it is via grace and Christ, acting as their unseen savior.

To say that unbaptised infants, the mentally handicapped and such “have no sin” and do not need a savior is to say that possibly millions of people have been saved without Christ whatsoever.

So, is it your position that many can be saved without Christ?
Really? You sit at your computer and laugh out loud?
It’s not about sinners, it’s about teaching a false belief as the head of a massive Church and people being allowed to separate themselves from such leadership.
Exactly which Protestant/non-Catholic Churches are you referring to?
 
My answer is that most of the disagreements between Protestant Churches are not worth arguing over.
Then why didn’t they remain unified to begin with, if it doesn’t really matter? Why are not all Protestants the original kind of Lutherans, if it makes no difference what you believe about baptismal regeneration, or about infant baptism, or about the five Solas, or TULIP? Why could John Calvin not be accepted into the Lutheran Church? Why did he have to start his own? He thought that the theory of double-predestination was important enough to kill for; obviously, Martin Luther disagreed. Same for Simons Mennos - why could he not be a Lutheran, if his theory of adults-only Baptism was not important enough to worry about? (He thought it was important enough to die for).

If these things are such non-issues, then why did Protestantism split into four denominations within its first ten years of existence? 🤷
 
If you’ll forgive me, I’m on my phone. It’s either one or two pages back that you’ll find where I quoted and posted the link. I also contrasted quotes with the CCC.
If you just give me the name of the Archbishop you mentioned I will search the thread and check the source.
 
It’s not about sinners, it’s about teaching a false belief as the head of a massive Church and people being allowed to separate themselves from such leadership.
There are no false beliefs that a pope, any pope, has ever taught.

Ever.
 
I wandered away from my original point, which is, I have always felt like the RCC was the “real deal” division 1 if you will. When Pope Francis came to us, I knew the time for conversion had at last come. I look forward one day, to be able to run with the apologetics
in all of you, but my gut really works pretty well.
👍

I think that you are a very brave, insightful and honest man (woman?). :tiphat:
 
Exactly what happened in Galatians and Acts right?

Peter was sympathetic to the Judaizers and was acting hypocritically.

So then in Acts it states that due to Peter’s erroneous teachings, Paul separated from the church and founded the first church of Paul.
Haha! Clever!

And I will simply tweak your comment a bit: Peter did not teach erroneously. He was being rebuked by Paul for not following his own teachings (which were, indeed, correct).
 
Protestants aren’t ignorant even though some are, we have legitimate reasons not to be Catholic.
Can you name two or three of these?

'Cause I’m a former Protestant and I’ve spent seven years talking with Protestants in this forum. I haven’t really run across anything that caused me to say, “Oh, well, in your case, it’s okay to be separated from the Catholic Church founded by Jesus upon Peter the Rock.”

But maybe you’ve got something…and I’m really interested to hear it if you do.
 
It is indeed irony. I grew up an Episcopalian. The Son of the Rector. I have know since I was 17 that the RCC had something that Episcopalians were close too, but just not there. I knew the further away a particular denomination got from Rome, the more “out of concert” it was with the true teachings of Christ, and may I be as bold to say, the love of Christ and the seat of God.

I think the “war drums” are beating throughout most denominations now, I think all Christians sense the peril. The atheists, who in the past, I never felt one way or the other about, are organizing and rallying. Why? Atheism was never a fellowship, it was simply the absence of belief and practice.

That has changed. Now they have websites and billboards. They post and blog everywhere, and many who share, do so with such an alarming amount of vitriol. As autonomous individuals, atheists are overall harmless. We hope that they find their way to God someday. But when they unite? It is like a bad horror movie.

I wandered away from my original point, which is, I have always felt like the RCC was the “real deal” division 1 if you will. When Pope Francis came to us, I knew the time for conversion had at last come. I look forward one day, to be able to run with the apologetics
in all of you, but my gut really works pretty well. And right now, my gut tells me it is a good time to be Christian, Roman or otherwise.
This is well said. Welcome home.
 
Exactly what happened in Galatians and Acts right?

Peter was sympathetic to the Judaizers and was acting hypocritically.

So then in Acts it states that due to Peter’s erroneous teachings, Paul separated from the church and founded the first church of Paul.

Is that what happened?
On Peter, Paul and Hypocrisy

In their effort to deny the primacy of Peter and the doctrine of papal infallibility, many non-Catholics point to Paul’s rebuke of Peter over the issue of eating with Gentiles as recorded in the Paul’s Letter to the Galatians.

Galatians 2:11-14
11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. 14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

In this passage, we see that Paul opposed Peter for not practicing what he preached. Although Peter may have been wrong to draw back from eating with the Gentile believers, we must note that is apparently James, and not Peter, who was the leader of the “circumcision group” in Jerusalem. Thus, those who assert that it was James, and not Peter, who was the real leader of the Church must answer for this error. However, Peter’s actions do not constitute formal teaching, and the doctrine of infallibility does not apply to Peter’s private opinions or behavior. Therefore, this passage does nothing to disprove either Peter’s primacy or the doctrine of papal infallibility. Peter, like his successors, was not above reproach nor impeccable.

However, it must also be noted that Paul was not above taking prudent measures out of fear of those who held to the tradition of circumcision, either. One such measure is found in the following passage:

Acts 16:1-3
1He came to Derbe and then to Lystra, where a disciple named Timothy lived, whose mother was a Jewess and a believer, but whose father was a Greek. 2The brothers at Lystra and Iconium spoke well of him. 3Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.

Paul wrote that “circumcision means nothing” (1 Corinthians 7:19, Galatians 6:15). Moreover, in the same letter in which Paul accused Peter of hypocrisy and boasted of having opposed Peter to his face, he writes the following:

Galatians 5:2-3
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

Imagine how Timothy must have felt when he first heard these words. He had let himself be circumcised by the very man who condemned the practice. Was Christ of no value to Timothy at all as a result of being circumcised?

This was not the only time that Paul had acted out of fear of the Jews. Later in the book of Acts, we find the following:

Acts 21:17-26
17When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers received us warmly. 18The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.” 26The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them.

Clearly, the brothers in Jerusalem were concerned that some harm might come to Paul from those who knew that Paul taught against circumcision. Paul agreed to purify himself according to Jewish customs and to pay the expenses of those who were purified along with him rather than openly admit that circumcision was of no value. Was this a wise course of action? Assuredly as subsequent events indicate.

However, it cannot be denied that Paul was preaching one thing (at least in private to Gentile Christians) while practicing another—the very thing he accused Peter of doing.

In his subsequent letters (1Cor 8: 9-13, Romans 14:13), Paul backtracks and admits that one might avoid controversial behavior for the sake of the “weaker brethren.” Thus, he vindicates Peter’s actions in retrospect.

In short, Peter and Paul both had valid points. Paul was right in principle whereas Peter was right pastorally.
 
Then why didn’t they remain unified to begin with, if it doesn’t really matter?

If these things are such non-issues, then why did Protestantism split into four denominations within its first ten years of existence?
:clapping:

And why hasn’t the number of denominations gone down as these groups set aside their minor differences?
 
I have a Question to my Awaited Brothers, i Hope you understand my English.
If you Don’t believe on the authority of the Pope, or You don’t think that he represented Jesus on earth, Why did you think your Pastor is? Specially if you are on a Mega church, don’t you think that in some way the “fund Pastor” is a pope? he make the decisions, He controlled the finances, He hiring pastors, etc… who gives him the authority? Did you think He/She represented Jesus on earth? Thank you Guys Good Bless you all, The peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.
 
Haha! Clever!

And I will simply tweak your comment a bit: Peter did not teach erroneously. He was being rebuked by Paul for not following his own teachings (which were, indeed, correct).
Yes, true , I guess I could have worded that better!
 
Baptism is necessary and can take several forms. Off the top of my head: Water, (either by immersion or pouring), Blood (dying for Christ) and Desire (wanting to be baptised but dying before that could be achieved.)

Baptism can take place as an adult, or as an infant in a Christian family. Baptism is normally via water and can be by immersion or pouring. I’m not sure about sprinkling. Other forms of baptism, as I’ve mentioned above, are by blood and by desire when normal water baptism is not available.

Now, I have a question or point for you. Although I do not have the entire thread before me as I type this I recall something about infants who die without baptism going to Heaven. Now, that may very well be and I think probably is. But it isn’t that they are without original sin and do not need a savior. Rather, unbaptised infants are saved via Christ as their unseen savior. Remember what Christ said: no one comes to the father but by him.

Same goes for people who have never heard of Christ. Some may be saved but it isn’t because of their works or their non-Christian religions. Rather, it is via grace and Christ, acting as their unseen savior.

To say that unbaptised infants, the mentally handicapped and such “have no sin” and do not need a savior is to say that possibly millions of people have been saved without Christ whatsoever.

So, is it your position that many can be saved without Christ?

Really? You sit at your computer and laugh out loud?

Exactly which Protestant/non-Catholic Churches are you referring to?
So un-baptized enfants are saved or not? How is your belief that they are (even though the Church won’t touch this one) and my exact same belief any different?

What if the child hits 5?
10?
13?
20?
50?

The simple answer for both our beliefs is, “we don’t know.”
 
Exactly what happened in Galatians and Acts right?

Peter was sympathetic to the Judaizers and was acting hypocritically.

So then in Acts it states that due to Peter’s erroneous teachings, Paul separated from the church and founded the first church of Paul.

Is that what happened?

No…they employed Matt 18. They assembled the apostles and church leaders and settled the manner.

Something that does not happen in most protestant denominations.

Now you are right when controversy arises they separate and break and divide. Now hundreds of years of divisions leave it nearly impossible to find the original protestant church and the truth is so fractured it’s in discernible.
You’re right that when there are false teachings there is separation, you’re also right that fixing it would prove impossible. Your Church was not employing Matthew 18, rather beliefs were dictated (again, even if “not officially” )and people believed them.
The problem lies in:

Who defines horrific acts and who speaks against it and with what consequence.

Let’s say I start up my church, the first church of Jesus the alien abductor.

I then teach the ancient alien theory and adopt “the chariots of the gods” as a supplemental holy book.

Who is anyone to speak against it? It’s there opinion against mine?

If someone does, what consequence is there for me?

The answer is no one and no consequence. And my movement grows and in 200 years may be a dominant force in Christianity. This has happened hundreds of times in the last 500 years already.

But when there is one unified church, such heresies are dealt with and clearly shown to be outside of Christianity, and anyone who holds such beliefs is as much a Christian as a Buddhist.

This is why the heresies of the first 1500 years dropped off over and over. Yet today we have hundreds of heresies thriving and growing.
Well we certainly wouldn’t burn our alien abductor friends alive would we? We would condemn them and pray.
 
Can you name two or three of these?

'Cause I’m a former Protestant and I’ve spent seven years talking with Protestants in this forum. I haven’t really run across anything that caused me to say, “Oh, well, in your case, it’s okay to be separated from the Catholic Church founded by Jesus upon Peter the Rock.”

But maybe you’ve got something…and I’m really interested to hear it if you do.
That I seek God with an open heart and an open conscience. I love Him with all my heart and seek to do His will and He’s put me in a position where I can (not through myself) lead others to Christ.

God is doing amazing things in my life.
 
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