Question for All Scholars Concerning Sabbath

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
I’m not sure if this has been covered before (I just started reading the thread); but, as I understand it there is no Greek word for “day” in the text. So, it seems instead to talking about the Lord’s way. Secondly, the first word of the text (“kata”) should have been translated as “according to.”

Likewise, for the quote from Letter to the Magnesians–there is no word for “day” in the text and should instead be translated as above: “Lord’s way.”

Can you retranslate the entire phrase for us. Replacing the words you use does not make sense.

The Didache:

“According to the Lord’s way of the Lord, gather together, break bread and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure…”

Also, if there was no word for day in Greek what did they use to describe a particular day such as the Sabbath?

There is a Greek word for “day.” My point is that the word does not appear in either text. The Sabbath was called “Sabbath” by the Jews, all other days were numbered. If you check on the wbe for Dr. William Mead Jones you’ll find that the seventh-day is known as “sabbath” in over 100 languages–when I looked into it found two more that he didn’t now about.

 

[Seagirt]

You can blame Paul and the Apostles, not the Roman Emperors. The first generation of Christians began to worship on Sunday, long before Constantine. CA has some great pamphlets on it.

Oh yes. This Rock magazine had a terrific article on this about 1999. If you search the archives you will get it. Its called " From Sabbath to Sunday ".

 

[djconklin]

The first generation of Christians began to worship on Sunday, long before Constantine.

Actually, we now think that it was the 2nd century Christians (primarily in Rome and Alexandria who started it. Search the web for Sozomen and I believe its in his book7, chapter 19 and he’ll tell you that most Christians (as late as the 5th century) were still keeping the Sabbath. And in Ireland and Ethipoia it was later than that.

 

[Protestant101]

What also needs to be remembered is that Sabbath observance was part of the Mosaic Law, the 613 Commandments given to the people of Israel as part of the covenant. If you seek justification in observing the law, and break any one of the 613 Paul tells us you become guilty of them all. This is what needs to be remembered in any discussion of Paul’s comments on “works of the law” he was specifically speaking of the 613 Mosaic Laws…of which the ten commandments are part.

Guess this means we don’t need the seventh commandment either??

I’ll be sure to tell my wife the “good news” this Sunday on our 17th wedding anniversary.

 

[The_Truthinator]

I’ve heard many different things. I don’t think to me it really matters which day we choose to worship, so long as we do so in spirit and in truth …

After all,

“Some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable.” Romans 14

And,

“Don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality.” Col. 2

The point of the latter being that legality isn’t so important when one realizes Christ himself is the living embodiment of the Sabbath! Much like we observe many of the “laws” of the Old Covenant in spirit (worship of one God, treating others better than ourselves and loving them, sacrificing through our worship) so we are observing the commandment which spake, saying, “Remember to observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.”

 

[djconklin]

What also needs to be remembered is that Sabbath observance was part of the Mosaic Law, the 613 Commandments given to the people of Israel as part of the covenant. If you seek justification in observing the law, and break any one of the 613 Paul tells us you become guilty of them all. This is what needs to be remembered in any discussion of Paul’s comments on “works of the law” he was specifically speaking of the 613 Mosaic Laws…of which the ten commandments are part.

The 613 are an expansion if you will of the 10C–they didn’t exist in Paul’s time, they were written by Maimondes (1135-1204). They can be seen here: jewfaq.org/613.htm

 

[adventistnomore]

Actually, we now think that it was the 2nd century Christians (primarily in Rome and Alexandria who started it. Search the web for Sozomen and I believe its in his book7, chapter 19 and he’ll tell you that most Christians (as late as the 5th century) were still keeping the Sabbath. And in Ireland and Ethipoia it was later than that.

Sozomen says that most Christians (outside of Rome and Alexandria) worshiped not only on Sundays, but also on Sabbaths (especially Sabbath evenings)–not that they were “still keeping” the Sabbath. Read:Assemblies are not held in all churches on the same time or manner. The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria. There are several cities and villages in Egypt where, contrary to the usage established elsewhere, the people meet together on Sabbath evenings, and, although they have dined previously, partake of the mysteries. The same prayers and psalms are not recited nor the same lections read on the same occasions in all churches. (Ecclesiastical History, Book VII, ch. 19).
Most Christians attended church on both Sabbath and Sunday as twin holy days, though they gave the latter precedence. However, Roman and Alexandrian Christians practiced a strict fast on Sabbaths to mourn Christ’s death on a weekly basis. Part of the fast involved not partaking of communion between Friday and Sunday (when Christ lay in the tomb). This is why they did not assemble on Sabbaths, as most churches did. This says nothing about whether the people worked on Sabbath or Sunday–just about when they met for Church.

Adventists cite this text though most have never read it in their lives. They are taught a misrepresentation of the passage, and continue to recycle it.

 

[djconklin]

Oh boy! How do I make this plainer? Maybe if I turn up the volume! And repeat it! I hear that if you repeat something 3 times people learn it.

If they are worshipping on the Sabbath then they are STILL KEEPING IT! No one said that they were only worhipping on the Sabbath. No one said that they weren’t worshipping on Sunday! The fact that they were STILL keeping the Sabbath is significant in and of itself. Anything else is really irrelevant to the discussion at hand–were they keeping Easter on the right day? Inquiring minds want to know!

The only one’s doing any “misrepresentation” are the one’s who are attacking anyone who even mentions the fact that in the 5th century(!) people were STILL KEEPING the Sabbath.

… though they gave the latter precedence. However, Roman and Alexandrian Christians practiced a strict fast on Sabbaths to mourn Christ’s death on a weekly basis.

Did you note the lack of supporting evidence for either claim? When, and if, it should ever appear pay close attention to the dates. And, of course, as we have already seen, make sure that the quote is correct and not a mistranslation.

 

[djconklin]

“Don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality.” Col. 2{:16-7}

Egads! What a lousy translation!

1. There is no “what you” in the Greek.
2. There is no “celebrating certain” in the Greek.
3. “holy days” is like what they have in the KJV. But, while that is the only place in the KJV the word “heorte” has been mistranslated it means “feast.”
4. There is no Greek support for the word “ceremonies.”
5. There is no Greek support for “For these rules”; and there should be a “Which are” instead.
6. There is no Greek suppport for “the reality yet”; it should be “things”.
7. There is no Greek support whatsoever for the last sentance. It is “but the body of Christ” which is a reference to the church. It is the positive counter to the “let no man judge” in vs 16.

Okay, let’s re-do it correctly (with notes):

“Don’t let outsiders condemn you for {i.e. the people in Colossae are doing these things} eating and drinking, on {or, “in that part of”} feast {days, supplied} or new moon or ceremonial sabbaths. Which are shadows of things yet to come. Let the church decide these things.”

For more details see 666man.net/Colossians_2_16-17_By_David_Conklin/colintro.html

 

[jmcrae]

The only one’s doing any “misrepresentation” are the one’s who are attacking anyone who even mentions the fact that in the 5th century(!) people were STILL KEEPING the Sabbath.

So, does the fact that the Catholic Church has Mass seven days a week, which includes Saturdays, that even though Sunday is the day of obligation, Catholics are “keeping the Sabbath”?

Because that’s what was going on in the 5th century - certain liturgies (including a vigil of the Sunday liturgy) were available on Saturdays. But Sunday was the general day of worship for the whole community - not Saturday.

 

[djconklin]

Mind you this is just little ol’ me and not God speaking here; but, off-hand I’d say yes.

Because that’s what was going on in the 5th century - certain liturgies (including a vigil of the Sunday liturgy) were available on Saturdays. But Sunday was the general day of worship for the whole community - not Saturday.

We have no evidence that was the case at all. And since we also know that the Sabbath was being kept in Ireland and Ethiopia long after that I’d have to heavily discount your thesis.

 

[jmcrae]

Mind you this is just little ol’ me and not God speaking here; but, off-hand I’d say yes.

We have no evidence that was the case at all. And since we also know that the Sabbath was being kept in Ireland and Ethiopia long after that I’d have to heavily discount your thesis.

Who is “we” who “know” this, and where is their documentation?

 

[Protestant101]

Adventists cite this text though most have never read it in their lives. They are taught a misrepresentation of the passage, and continue to recycle it.

Actually, not too many Adventists even know of this text, so it is a bit of a strawman to say it like you have.

The way I see it, it doesn’t matter what any of these supposed experts say about who kept sabbath, and when they started or stopped. It’s so impossible to prove definitively, and the Bible is all we need to read:

**Exo 20:10 **But **the seventh day **is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

How could God make that any clearer?

 

[djconklin]

We have no evidence that was the case at all. And since we also know that the Sabbath was being kept in Ireland and Ethiopia long after that I’d have to heavily discount your thesis.

Who is “we” who “know” this, and where is their documentation?

The first “we” is everyone. No support was made for the claims that were made.

As for Ireland and Ethiopia:

Ireland and St. Patrick: sabbathtruth.com/documentation/saint_patrick.asp

Ethiopia - 1604
Jesuits tried to induce the Abyssinian church to accept Roman Catholicism. They influenced King Zadenghel to propose to submit to the Papacy (A.D.1604). “Prohibiting all his subjects, upon severe penalties, to observe Saturday any longer.” Gedde’s “Church History of Ethiopia.” p.311, also Gibbon’s “Decline and Fall,” ch. 47 (found at sabbathtruth.com/history/sabbath_history17.asp – note that some people in England in the 1600’s were keeping the Sabbath as well.)

 

[adventistnomore]

Oh boy! How do I make this plainer? Maybe if I turn up the volume! And repeat it! I hear that if you repeat something 3 times people learn it.

If they are worshipping on the Sabbath then they are STILL KEEPING IT! No one said that they were only worhipping on the Sabbath. No one said that they weren’t worshipping on Sunday! The fact that they were STILL keeping the Sabbath is significant in and of itself. Anything else is really irrelevant to the discussion at hand–were they keeping Easter on the right day? Inquiring minds want to know!

The only one’s doing any “misrepresentation” are the one’s who are attacking anyone who even mentions the fact that in the 5th century(!) people were STILL KEEPING the Sabbath.

The Byzantines have always venerated both Sabbath and Sunday on the liturgical calendar as twin holy days, memorializing Creation and the Resurrection. It remains customary for them to celebrate the Eucharist on both days. However, it was not the practice of the church at Constantinople to “keep the sabbath” in the 5th century.

This is evident from the witness of St. John Chrysostom, who, as Patriarch of Antioch and Constantinople in the late 4th and early 5th centuries, actively denounced those few Christians who observed Jewish feasts (including the sabbath) and circumcised themselves. (Homilies against the Jews, IV:7:2-4,7; I:8:1; II:6:1). John celebrated the Eucharist on the sabbath according to liturgical custom, but opposed its ceremonial observance as a day of rest. In him, we ascertain the official and public stance of the two largest and most influential churches other than Rome and Alexandria (i.e., Constantinople and Antioch, where he was bishop), where his theological legacy remained powerful throughout the 5th century.

Note then, that the celebration of the Eucharist on the Sabbath is no evidence of its observation as a day of rest; the two had no bearing on one another. Notice also that those Christians who did observe the Sabbath also observed circumcision, attended the Jewish synagogue, and observed the annual feasts as well. They were hardly primitive Seventh-day Adventists.

Did you note the lack of supporting evidence for either claim? When, and if, it should ever appear pay close attention to the dates. And, of course, as we have already seen, make sure that the quote is correct and not a mistranslation.

I don’t know what you’re attacking. I was giving the historical background to this passage, by explaining the practice of the Roman Sabbath fast, which dates back to about the second century CE. (Sozomen doesn’t explain all the details; his summary is cursory.) If you’d like “supporting evidence” for that historical background, I suggest you pick up an introductory text in Church history, or the Catholic Encyclopedia.

 

[adventistnomore]

Actually, not too many Adventists even know of this text, so it is a bit of a strawman to say it like you have.

I said:

*Adventists cite this text though most have never read it in their lives. They are taught a misrepresentation of the passage, and continue to recycle it.
*
I never said:

*“most Adventists cite this text”

Ergo, your response was the “straw man.”

It’s quite clear that the claim: “Adventist cite this text” is true, as is the claim that “most have never read it in their lives” (whether they cite it or not).

 

[djconklin]

The Byzantines have always venerated both Sabbath and Sunday on the liturgical calendar as twin holy days, memorializing Creation and the Resurrection. It remains customary for them to celebrate the Eucharist on both days. However, it was not the practice of the church at Constantinople to “keep the sabbath” in the 5th century.

This is evident from the witness of St. John Chrysostom, who, as Patriarch of Antioch and Constantinople in the late 4th and early 5th centuries, actively denounced those few Christians who observed Jewish feasts (including the sabbath) and circumcised themselves. (Homilies against the Jews, IV:7:2-4,7; I:8:1; II:6:1).

The second paragraph contradicts what was said in the first.

Sozomen isn’t referring to solely the Byzantine church. You must the “and almost everywhere” after he mentioned Constantiople.

Most of the critcs of the Adventists church are unaware of this text because most have never read it in their lives. They do not know how to do research and when they do see a text they don’t read it carefully.

 

[djconklin]

Notice also that those Christians who did observe the Sabbath also observed circumcision, attended the Jewish synagogue, and observed the annual feasts as well.[q/uote]

That is supported by reading Col. 2:16-17 very carefully

They were hardly primitive Seventh-day Adventists.

No one said that they were. This is irrelevant and a straw man argument.

 

[adventistnomore]

That is supported by reading Col. 2:16-17 very carefully.

I’m sorry; what is supported by a careful reading of Col 2:16-17? I’m not entirely sure what you’re referring to; my apologies.

No one said that they were. This is irrelevant and a straw man argument.

I never said you believed them to be primitive Seventh-day Adventists. and I anticipated you would point out that you never claimed as much. I added it for the sake of those Adventists who do interpret the Sozomen quote in this manner.

 

[Protestant101]

I said:

Adventists cite this text though most have never read it in their lives. They are taught a misrepresentation of the passage, and continue to recycle it.
*
I never said:

*“most Adventists cite this text”

Ergo, your response was the “straw man.”

It’s quite clear that the claim: “Adventist cite this text” is true, as is the claim that “most have never read it in their lives” (whether they cite it or not).

LOL,whether they cite it or not??? Tell us please, which Adventists quote this? Where are YOUR references, as us Adventists are so often asked…