Question for all you grammarians

[jimmy]

phatcatholic:

but vs. 18 says she was found to be with child while they were betrothed, but ***before ***they came together. vs. 24 says joseph didn’t take mary as his wife until after the dream, after she was found to be pregnant. so, to me this means that they were betrothed, not married, when the angel came to her.

this is important b/c protestants explain her alarm by saying that she didn’t know man b/c she was still in the betrothal period, the time when a couple did not have sex. what would you say to this?

I don’t know if that is correct how you are understanding Matt.1

18

Now the generation of Christ was in this wise. When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child, of the Holy Ghost. 19 Whereupon Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing publicly to expose her, was minded to put her away privately. 20 But while he thought on these things, behold the angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying: Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her, is of the Holy Ghost.

21 And she shall bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name JESUS. For he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled which the Lord spoke by the prophet, saying: 23 Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. 24 And Joseph rising up from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife. 25 And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

These words that are underlined seem to suggest that she is already married to him. “took unto him his wife” seems like it suggests that Mary is already his wife. I am not sure what it means “before they came together” though.*

 

[jimmy]

I think Augustine understands her as being married in this quote.

1. Her virginity also itself was on this account more pleasing and accepted, in that it was not that Christ being conceived in her, rescued it beforehand from a husband who would violate it, Himself to preserve it; but, before He was conceived, chose it, already dedicated to God, as that from which to be born. This is shown by the words which Mary spake in answer to the Angel announcing to her her conception; “How,” saith she, " shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"(3) Which assuredly she would not say, unless she had before vowed herself unto God as a virgin. But, because the habits of the Israelites as yet refused this, she was espoused to a just man, who would not take from her by violence, but rather guard against violent persons, what she had already vowed. Although, even if she had said this only, “How shall this take place?” and had not added, “seeing I know not a man,” certainly she would not have asked, how, being a female, she should give birth to her promised Son, if she had married with purpose of sexual intercourse.

She might have been bidden also to continue a virgin, that in her by fitting miracle the Son of God should receive the form of a servant, but, being to be a pattern to holy virgins, lest it should be thought that she alone needed to be a virgin, who had obtained to conceive a child even without sexual intercourse, she dedicated her virginity to God, when as yet she knew not what she should conceive, in order that the imitation of a heavenly life in an earthly and mortal body should take place of vow, not of command; through love of choosing, not through necessity of doing service. Thus Christ by being born of a virgin, who, before she knew Who was to be born of her, had determined to continue a virgin, chose rather to approve, than to command, holy virginity. And thus, even in the female herself, in whom He took the form of a servant, He willed that virginity should be free.

 

[jimmy]

The thing about Mary’s vow that makes it intrigueing is that the angel declares that Mary shall concieve, which is in the future tense. He does not say when, he just says she shall concieve a son. The angel uses future tense verbs for the next four verses. Mary then says, “How shall this be, since I know not man?” She uses a future tense verb, so you can see that she understands it is in the future that it will happen. The fact that she is using a future tense verb and she understands that she will concieve in the future is a big indicator that she has made a vow of virginity.

I am not sure any more about Matt. 1 whether she is already married to Joseph. She may be but I am not sure.

 

[KennySe]

You guys are way over my head, with all that “tense talk” , but I am enjoying the thread.

What I find compelling, is what Mary does NOT say.

Luke 1:31-35 (DRV)
31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.
33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 And Mary said to the angel:

She does NOT say:

• How does any woman have a child? I have no idea how pregnancy occurs.
• Will we name him Joseph Junior after his father?
• Have you also told Joseph that he and I are having a son?
• How many more children will I have?

–

And what I find compelling is what she DOES say.

How shall this be done, because I know not man?

If she will know her husband in the future, then there is no need for her to ask the above.

---

She did not deny what the angel was telling her. She was reminding him of her vow of chastity.

 

[jimmy]

KennySe:

You guys are way over my head, with all that “tense talk” , but I am enjoying the thread.

What I find compelling, is what Mary does NOT say.

Luke 1:31-35 (DRV)
31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.
33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 And Mary said to the angel:

She does NOT say:

• How does any woman have a child? I have no idea how pregnancy occurs.
• Will we name him Joseph Junior after his father?
• Have you also told Joseph that he and I are having a son?
• How many more children will I have?

–

And what I find compelling is what she DOES say.

How shall this be done, because I know not man?

If she will know her husband in the future, then there is no need for her to ask the above.

---

She did not deny what the angel was telling her. She was reminding him of her vow of chastity.

I come to the same conclusion when I read it.