Question for anti-death penalty advocates

[marci]

This is an honest question. for those of you who do not believe in the DP, where does your feeling come from?

Do you believe it is just plain old murder?

Do you believe that it would be acceptable if the person had the ability to murder additional people? (fellow inmates, guards)

Do you simply “feel sorry” for the person?

What do you think?

 

[davidv]

This is an honest question. for those of you who do not believe in the DP, where does your feeling come from?

Do you believe it is just plain old murder?

Do you believe that it would be acceptable if the person had the ability to murder additional people? (fellow inmates, guards)

Do you simply “feel sorry” for the person?

What do you think?

No

Too many controls in prisons to make this a legitimate condition.

No

In my gut John Paul II’s teaching on the matter resonates. In many of the death penalty cases I am familiar, what see is a desire for revenge, not legitimate punishment nor societal protection.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

This is an honest question. for those of you who do not believe in the DP, where does your feeling come from?

Do you believe it is just plain old murder?

Do you believe that it would be acceptable if the person had the ability to murder additional people? (fellow inmates, guards)

Do you simply “feel sorry” for the person?

What do you think?

I used to be pro-, but now I’m against. The reason being is that it places too much faith in a flawed judicial system which is routinely unjust.

The argument put forth by 18th cent. priest, Fr. Giovanni Battista Beccaria is compelling:

“The punishment of death is not authorized by any right; for I have demonstrated that no such right exists. It is, therefore, a war of a whole nation against a citizen, whose destruction they consider as necessary or useful to the general good. But, if I can further demonstrate that it is neither necessary nor useful, I shall have gained the cause of humanity. The death of a citizen can be necessary in one case only: when, though deprived of his liberty, he has such power and connections as may endanger the security of the nation; when his exitence may produce a dangerous revolution in the established form of government. But even in this case, it can only be necessary when a nation is on the verge of recovering or losing its liberty; or in times of absolute anarchy.” (Crime and Punishment, ch. 28)

According to Fr. Beccaria above, the conditions for licit use of the death penalty are so remote that the routine use of such a penalty is ripe with abuse.

 

[Eileen_T]

Take the case of St Maria Goretti’s murderer, Alessandro Serenelli.

He was sentenced to 30 years in prison. For a long time he was unrepentant and surly. One night he had a dream or vision of Maria, gathering flowers and offering them to him. His life changed. When he was released after 27 years, his first act was to go to beg the forgiveness of Maria’s mother.

If he had been executed, his conversion would not have taken place and his soul would have been lost forever. As it is, by being given the time he needed, his soul is a victory for God, not Satan.

 

[1ke]

This is an honest question. for those of you who do not believe in the DP, where does your feeling come from?

I am not “against” the death penalty, I am “against” the way in which it is administerd and the reasons it is administered.

The DP should always be a response to unjust aggression that cannot be restrained in another way. The DP should be a mechanism for protecting society.

In our country, and many others, it is punitive and for the purpose of retribution. This is unjust and it is not our place to exact this punishment.

Do you believe it is just plain old murder?

When it is exacted as a punitive measure, it is the unjust taking of another’s life. Even though that person is not innocent, we should demand their life be forfeit only in rare cases in first world countries.

Do you believe that it would be acceptable if the person had the ability to murder additional people? (fellow inmates, guards)

Yes. In this case it is not unjust.

 

[LeahInancsi]

Do you believe it is just plain old murder?

Are you referring to murdering for the sheer pleasure of seeing someone die? Yes, I believe that some people do that.

Do you believe that it would be acceptable if the person had the ability to murder additional people? (fellow inmates, guards)

Yes, but in this country such an individual can be contained to the point that he does not have the opportunity to murder another person.

Do you simply “feel sorry” for the person?

NO!

 

[LeahInancsi]

Take the case of St Maria Goretti’s murderer, Alessandro Serenelli.

He was sentenced to 30 years in prison. For a long time he was unrepentant and surly. One night he had a dream or vision of Maria, gathering flowers and offering them to him. His life changed. When he was released after 27 years, his first act was to go to beg the forgiveness of Maria’s mother.

If he had been executed, his conversion would not have taken place and his soul would have been lost forever. As it is, by being given the time he needed, his soul is a victory for God, not Satan.

A few years ago in Texas, we had a situation where a woman Carla ?) on death row appeared to be completely rehabilitated. She landed in death row for a very brutal murder committed during a robbery. See came to know Jesus Christ and became a driving force in converting other inmates. Almost everyone interviewed for a TV documentary, prison guards included, said that she was and entirely different person than the one who murder an innocent victim.

In the end, she was put to death for her past bad acts. I think her sentence should have been changed to life without parole because she was no longer a threat to anyone and she was helping a lot of very troubled people.

 

[wanner47]

I agree with 1ke.

I am also against the death penalty because our justice system is not (and will never be) perfect. As long as there’s the slightest chance that the state could accidentally execute an innocent person, the death penalty should not be used.

 

[marci]

Thanks to all for the replies. Personally, I do believe in the DP. However, I do think that the guilt must be assured, and the crime need be particularly evil.

I have questions about the reason for the church’s acceptance of it’s use. It seems the criteria and the reason for church santion of state imposed death penalty has changed the last 4 or 5 decades.

Because of this inconsistancy, I am unsure what is just and I don’t know if my view is correct.

 

[The_Truthinator]

I was raised in a conservative fundamentalist church, and we once had a series on the Ten Commandments. We got to “Thou shalt not kill.” This is about what our pastor said:

“An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth!”

He forgot the part where Jesus said, “BUT I SAY TO YOU…” Ghandi, for his part, once noted: “An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.”

We have such a profound understanding of grace today, and yet we seldom put it into practice. We are all murderers and criminals. We all killed Our Lord, the only true Innocent (save his Mother whom we murdered in spirit), and did so in cold blood. Were we not all on death row (condemned by ourselves), and he in his grace rescued us?

Our pastor went on to talk about Pope John Paul II of blessed memory, and how he saved a young man from death row, and how the same later became a Christian. He condemned the pope’s actions, calling them unbiblical, asserting that the young man deserved to die. I wondered even then how saving him from the “just penalty” and making of him a Christian was anything but biblical.

I’ve heard numerous stories like the aforementioned ones, as well as ones about innocent men and women being put to death, etc.

I simply see no justice in murdering a murderer. None. I see only a contradiction. I do not think it is for us to say who deserves to live or to die. That is for God. I see the dignity and sanctity of human life undermined in the death penalty.

I pray someday God will give us the sanity necessary to stop all this killing…

 

[Texas_Roofer]

This is an honest question. for those of you who do not believe in the DP, where does your feeling come from?

i was pro capital punishment for years. then I realized we were not achieving anything

Do you believe it is just plain old murder?

no

Do you believe that it would be acceptable if the person had the ability to murder additional people? (Fellow inmates, guards)

most humans have the ability to murder. if the aggressor puts others in imminent danger the self defense action is allowed. If security is not available CP is allowed

Do you simply “feel sorry” for the person?

no it is more about respect for life, prosecution errors, injustice in varies forms.

What do you think?

I find this information too correct deathpenaltyinfo.org/getcat.php?cid=3

 

[OnlineHarvest]

There is a compelling case from Scripture for the death penalty.

First, and probably the most familiar, is “Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man” (Genesis 9:6). On the basis of man being created in the image of God the death penalty is just.

Second, OT law commanded it. People ignore this clear truth. God would not command the death penalty for certain crimes unless it was a JUST PENALTY. God doesn’t waffle on what is just and what is not just from OT to NT - His truth is not abrogated.

Thirdly, in the NT, we are told by Paul that governing authorities are appointed by God and they wield the sword not in vain. And if you look at Jesus’ teaching with Peter, He says those who live by the sword will die by the sword. One cannot miss the obvious reference of what “sword” means in both contexts. Not to mention, in the Romans 13 section, the government who bears this sword, are a “terror” to evil works and an “avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil” (v.4)

Finally, people mistakenly equate an inadequate system to inflict the death penalty, and the death penalty itself. If we are going to discuss whether or not the death penalty is a just penalty, one cannot look at the former scenarios (as I can only imagine how much more unjust government executed criminals back in the day without DNA and only the need for 2 witnesses! - yet Paul still said they have this authority - and think who was in power at the time! Not exactly a JUST avenger, but still…).

 

[laariii]

The death penalty should only be used when there is no way of keeping the offender away from the rest of the society.
It is acceptable in nomadic societies who don’t have jails ect.
In western countries people can be kept in jails & in individual cells. The death penalty is unnecessary & rather archaic.

 

[pete_29]

Too many controls in prisons to make this a legitimate condition.

I’d like to know what controls there are. I’m in the midst of inmates 5 days a week. Believe me they could kill me any time they wanted.

 

[thistle]

This is an honest question. for those of you who do not believe in the DP, where does your feeling come from?

Do you believe it is just plain old murder?

Do you believe that it would be acceptable if the person had the ability to murder additional people? (fellow inmates, guards)

Do you simply “feel sorry” for the person?

What do you think?

The death penalty deprives a person of the opportunity for redemption.

 

[1ke]

There is a compelling case from Scripture for the death penalty.

Which is why the Catholic Church does not teach it is intrinsically wrong.

First, and probably the most familiar, is “Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man” (Genesis 9:6). On the basis of man being created in the image of God the death penalty is just.

Yet, before that God set a mark on Cain so he would not be harmed. The death penalty is not intrinsically wrong, but it is clearly not commanded for ALL cases of murder either. God showed clemency, and we can too.

Second, OT law commanded it. People ignore this clear truth. God would not command the death penalty for certain crimes unless it was a JUST PENALTY. God doesn’t waffle on what is just and what is not just from OT to NT - His truth is not abrogated.

Two things-- first GOD is the author of life and therefore He can command it to be taken. Absolutely true.

But, you are wrong about it not being abbrogated. Christ himself stated “you have heard it said ‘an eye for an eye’, but I say…”

Thirdly, in the NT, we are told by Paul that governing authorities are appointed by God and they wield the sword not in vain.

And, no one has argued that the State has no authority to apply the death penalty. The question isn’t whether or not they have the authority but whether or not they should exercise it.

Finally, people mistakenly equate an inadequate system to inflict the death penalty, and the death penalty itself. If we are going to discuss whether or not the death penalty is a just penalty, one cannot look at the former scenarios (as I can only imagine how much more unjust government executed criminals back in the day without DNA and only the need for 2 witnesses! - yet Paul still said they have this authority - and think who was in power at the time! Not exactly a JUST avenger, but still…).

This part of your post doesn’t make any sense.

 

[1ke]

Thanks to all for the replies. Personally, I do believe in the DP. However, I do think that the guilt must be assured, and the crime need be particularly evil.

I have questions about the reason for the church’s acceptance of it’s use. It seems the criteria and the reason for church santion of state imposed death penalty has changed the last 4 or 5 decades.

Because of this inconsistancy, I am unsure what is just and I don’t know if my view is correct.

I think World War II and the rise of totalitarian regimes in the 20th century-- who put people to death to stamp out resistance and for evil purposes-- is part of the reason the Church began speaking out so vocally against it in ways they had not done previously.

We in the US tend to be myopic-- when the Church speaks on such topics she is speaking for the universal church. Look at the atrocities going on in other countries-- the death penalty here is used with restraint in comparison. Although many other countries are ahead of us in abolishing it completely.

 

[Newbie2]

This is an honest question. for those of you who do not believe in the DP, where does your feeling come from?

Do you believe it is just plain old murder?

Do you believe that it would be acceptable if the person had the ability to murder additional people? (fellow inmates, guards)

Do you simply “feel sorry” for the person?

What do you think?

1. From a feeling of Justice; I would rather see someone punished in a lifetime in some hellhole of prison than take an easy, painless way out (although more punishment may be waiting in an afterlife).

2 & 3) No, not if it is necessary to protect society, including other prison inmates and staff from harm.

1. Sorry only in that their life is wasted, or seems to be, if they don’t repent and try to make good on their misdeeds (hey, even in prison some good can be done).

 

[Ender]

The DP should be a mechanism for protecting society.

The protection of society is one of the four aims of punishment but it is not the primary one. The primary goal is to “redress the disorder caused by the offense.” That is, the primary goal is justice, not protection.

In our country, and many others, it is punitive and for the purpose of retribution. This is unjust and it is not our place to exact this punishment.

All punishment is punitive, all sins deserve punishment, and it is the duty of the state to inflict a punishment proportional to the severity of the crime.

Aquinas (II/II 158 1 ad 3) “It is unlawful to desire vengeance considered as evil to the man who is to be punished, but it is praiseworthy to desire vengeance as a corrective of vice and for the good of justice; … when revenge is taken in accordance with the order of judgment, it is God’s work, since he who has power to punish “is God’s minister” as stated in Romans 13:4.”

When it is exacted as a punitive measure, it is the unjust taking of another’s life.

This is backwards: it is justice that demands not simply punishment but punishment equal to the severity of the sin, and for some sins the only just punishment is the life of the sinner.

Ender

 

[1ke]

it is justice that demands not simply punishment but punishment equal to the severity of the sin, and for some sins the only just punishment is the life of the sinner.

And, yet, Justice does not rule out Mercy.