Question for anti-death penalty advocates

[dconstruct]

Even if it were an inducement to confession, how could you support, essentially, what amounts to torture?

Torture being defined here as THREATENING (whether that threat is real or imagined) TO KILL SOMEONE IF THEY DON’T TELL YOU WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR?

You put a gun in someone’s face and cock the hammer and ask them whether they started the Great Chicago Fire and they might tell you they had if they thought it would save their life but that wouldn’t neccesarily make it so.

 

[LeahInancsi]

Having represented a few dozen people accused of murder, I can tell you your claim is not reflected in the real world. Confessions do not occur to avoid the death penalty, that has almost always already occured prior to the prosector coming into the case or the defense attorney for that matter. The type of crime has no impact as I understand it on what type of person confesses or why.

People decide to plead guilty to crimes in order to avoid more severe penalties, but surprisingly it happens across the board pretty evenly, but drops as the penalties increase. It probably happens the least in murder or other capital crimes, simply because to a young person, a 30 year sentence feels like life anyway. They tend not to be able to see the actuality of their situation.

I think you confirmed my point in the first paragraph. How do you know why a person confesses? The confessions I’m referring to occur during police interrogation so those cases never get to trial. I agree that people plea bargain at all level of crime, but, for some people, life in prision is much preferable to death. In other situations, time is just time.

 

[LeahInancsi]

Even if it were an inducement to confession, how could you support, essentially, what amounts to torture?

Torture being defined here as THREATENING (whether that threat is real or imagined) TO KILL SOMEONE IF THEY DON’T TELL YOU WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR?

You put a gun in someone’s face and cock the hammer and ask them whether they started the Great Chicago Fire and they might tell you they had if they thought it would save their life but that wouldn’t neccesarily make it so.

Torture??? I don’t think so. What about the person they brutally murdered?

Lethal injection is about as far from torture as anything means of death I can think of. Would you rather suffer through death from cancer or lethal injection? I’ll take the needle.

An innocent person will not confess regardless of the threat of punishment. The case will go to trial and, if justice works, they will be found not guilty.

BTW, I’m am opposed to killing criminals.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I think you confirmed my point in the first paragraph. How do you know why a person confesses? The confessions I’m referring to occur during police interrogation so those cases never get to trial. I agree that people plea bargain at all level of crime, but, for some people, life in prision is much preferable to death. In other situations, time is just time.

You’re wrong in most everything you say. I know why people confess because I represented THOUSANDS of criminals in 19 years+, and I know why they confess. It has nothing to do with penalties. Plenty of cases go to trial wherein the defendant has confessed. In either case, an attorney is involved and is most aware of the circumstances of the confession. Have you ever talked to a death row inmate, or one facing a death sentence? I suspect you have not.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Torture??? I don’t think so. What about the person they brutally murdered?

Lethal injection is about as far from torture as anything means of death I can think of. Would you rather suffer through death from cancer or lethal injection? I’ll take the needle.

**You blithely state that there is no torture. Guess its never been tried on you. To “take the needle” as you suggest would be against Church teaching. **

An innocent person will not confess regardless of the threat of punishment. The case will go to trial and, if justice works, they will be found not guilty.

**That is patently false. There are innumerable cases of false confessions. Your scenario makes it clear you have no experience in the criminal justice system. Justice often does not work. Anyone who works in the system knows that. **

BTW, I’m am opposed to killing criminals.

Then what are you making this argument for?

 

[Texas_Roofer]

…
An innocent person will not confess regardless of the threat of punishment. The case will go to trial and, if justice works, they will be found not guilty…

Nova did a documentary on the subject of false confessions on another show (maybe 60 minutes) showed a case of an innocent man who refused to give a false confession.
In the NOVA case it was revealed people were given the option to set in jail for weeks to await trial or they could go home today provided they confessed, so many confessed. They thought it reasonable since they had no money for bail, or lawyers, and were depressed. In the other case the man was given the option of basically 2 years in jail plus 8 years probation or face trial with a 30 year sentence if he lost. He lost, eventually even the dead man’s father plead with the state to release him because the more they knew the more his story appeared true. The father began to believe there were two crimes one had caused the loss of his son, the other the unjust conviction of an innocent man.

The father knew one crime was not justice for anoher crime

 

[LeahInancsi]

You’re wrong in most everything you say. I know why people confess because I represented THOUSANDS of criminals in 19 years+, and I know why they confess. It has nothing to do with penalties. Plenty of cases go to trial wherein the defendant has confessed. In either case, an attorney is involved and is most aware of the circumstances of the confession. Have you ever talked to a death row inmate, or one facing a death sentence? I suspect you have not.

No I haven’t and I’m not going to argue with if that’s what you’re looking for. I’m not passionate in the least on this issue. I’m just expression my opinion based on what I’ve seen, informed or not.

So if you know, then tell us.

 

[LeahInancsi]

Nova did a documentary on the subject of false confessions on another show (maybe 60 minutes) showed a case of an innocent man who refused to give a false confession.
In the NOVA case it was revealed people were given the option to set in jail for weeks to await trial or they could go home today provided they confessed, so many confessed. They thought it reasonable since they had no money for bail, or lawyers, and were depressed. In the other case the man was given the option of basically 2 years in jail plus 8 years probation or face trial with a 30 year sentence if he lost. He lost, eventually even the dead man’s father plead with the state to release him because the more they knew the more his story appeared true. The father began to believe there were two crimes one had caused the loss of his son, the other the unjust conviction of an innocent man.

The father knew one crime was not justice for anoher crime

So…that’s one case. I never said never.

 

[dconstruct]

To be clear:

When I referred to torture, I meant that it was tantamount to torture to hold the death penalty over someone’s head while offerring them their life in return for an admission of guilt.

You see, the Church has already been down that path (it was called the Spanish Inquisition).

It doesn’t work. It is not just.

When you ask: “what about the innocent person they murdered?” you make it clear what motivates those who call for the death penalty (i.e. vengeance). And again, if YOU want vengeance, then why don’t YOU go take it (and explain yourself before a jury of your peers), rather than implicate society at large in your lapse in ethical sensibility.

Capitol punishment I throw in with divorce, with regards to Jesus’ advice:

Though capitol punishment is prescribed in the old testament, it was “only for the hardness of your hearts” that it was allowed and those who follow the anointed son of the One True and Living God are called to a higher standard, namely to love our enemies.

Either you can hack it, or you can’t but don’t try to reinterpret the rules to suit your own agenda. Jesus was pretty clear: treat others the way you would have them treat you; and no one wants to be killed. No one.

 

[pete_29]

Oh please give me a break. I’m sure that there are plenty of non-murders who are serving lengthy sentences that can be just as dangerous or threatening. If your fear is that great, you should look for another occupation. That would be a strange argument indeed, that we should continue with CP to “protect” the correctional officers" from possible danger.

Thank you for your love.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Thank you for your love.

You set up a strawman argument, one in which many participated btw, yet you only picked me to accuse, and then conplain because I am not appropriately caring about your statement? It speaks more to your statement than to my response. Your argument made no sense. There are plenty of dangerous people in prison who are not on death row,. and I suspect that most injuries to correctional officers come from those in the general population or in non-death row high security areas.

 

[KathleenElsie]

This is an honest question. for those of you who do not believe in the DP, where does your feeling come from? The educated knowledge that their are alternatives to the death penalty that still extract justice in the Industrialized countries.

Do you believe it is just plain old murder? In my case no. Since society can be protected by other means it becomes a moral judgment.

Do you believe that it would be acceptable if the person had the ability to murder additional people? (fellow inmates, guards) Those that are responsible for the prison are then responsible for the safety of those that live or work there.

Do you simply “feel sorry” for the person? No I do not feel sorry for them. I think in many cases the death penalty is the easy way out. Solitary confinement with limited outside information and lots of time to think seems the better alternative.

What do you think?

I am generally against the death penalty. Yet if it is the only way to keep others safe then it might be the moral thing to do.

 

[pete_29]

You set up a strawman argument, one in which many participated btw, yet you only picked me to accuse, and then conplain because I am not appropriately caring about your statement? It speaks more to your statement than to my response. Your argument made no sense. There are plenty of dangerous people in prison who are not on death row,. and I suspect that most injuries to correctional officers come from those in the general population or in non-death row high security areas.

You are the one who said that The protection of Correctional officers was a flimsy excuse for the death penalty. Now you tell me how that doesn’t sound like a convicted felons life isn’t more important than my own. It may not be less important, but it sure isn’t more important.
You asked in a previous post ,if you’re scared why don’t you quit. I’m a high school graduate. This prison is the highest paying job for someone with my education in this area. I have a daughter with massive medical bills and our insurance at work is good. Add to that the fact that i’m a couple of years away from retirement. Now you know why I can’t just quit.
I’m sorry for dumping on you, but I get that prison guards lives ain’t worth squat stuff from a wide range of people. From my bosses to a lot of people on the street to every inmate I ever met( I expect that out of the inmates).

For anyone who reads this. If you know a correctional officer, thank them, They’re doing an impossible job, outnumbered 50 to 1 or more, unarmed amongst an armed enemy. Some of us are no better than the inmates we watch, but most are decent folks who are just trying to support theit families.

Again, sorry for the rant.

Have a MERRY and PEACEFUL CHRISTMAS

 

[pete_29]

I want to add, I’m not for or against the death penalty, but if it is used there better not be ANY doubt as to the guilt of the perpetrator.

 

[KathleenElsie]

You are the one who said that The protection of Correctional officers was a flimsy excuse for the death penalty. Now you tell me how that doesn’t sound like a convicted felons life isn’t more important than my own. It may not be less important, but it sure isn’t more important.
You asked in a previous post ,if you’re scared why don’t you quit. I’m a high school graduate. This prison is the highest paying job for someone with my education in this area. I have a daughter with massive medical bills and our insurance at work is good. Add to that the fact that i’m a couple of years away from retirement. Now you know why I can’t just quit.
I’m sorry for dumping on you, but I get that prison guards lives ain’t worth squat stuff from a wide range of people. From my bosses to a lot of people on the street to every inmate I ever met( I expect that out of the inmates).

For anyone who reads this. If you know a correctional officer, thank them, They’re doing an impossible job, outnumbered 50 to 1 or more, unarmed amongst an armed enemy. Some of us are no better than the inmates we watch, but most are decent folks who are just trying to support theit families.

Again, sorry for the rant.

Have a MERRY and PEACEFUL CHRISTMAS

Your answer was honest and heart felt. Your life and those of the other officers are the states responsibility. If the state finds that for you to safely do your job then the DP and its threat should be available. The person in jail with no chance of parole has nothing to loose if they murder someone or many someones while in jail. So at least making the death penalty available for those already in jail could very well be a determinate.

PS my step father was a police officer that was shot while trying to arrest someone. So I might be a little prejudiced here.

 

[pete_29]

Your answer was honest and heart felt. Your life and those of the other officers are the states responsibility. If the state finds that for you to safely do your job then the DP and its threat should be available. The person in jail with no chance of parole has nothing to loose if they murder someone or many someones while in jail. So at least making the death penalty available for those already in jail could very well be a determinate.

PS my step father was a police officer that was shot while trying to arrest someone. So I might be a little prejudiced here.

I’m sorry to hear about your step father. Police officers are heroes. Every call they respond to can have dire consequences. In my job at least I know what I’m dealing with. A police officer doesn’t always have that luxury. I’ll be praying for him.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

…

… So I might be a little prejudiced here.

I am sorry to hear of both cases the daughter with medical problems and the police officer unjustly shot. We must remember the incarceration process can always be improved. If the current process provides excessive danger to the guard we should change the process. My opinion is we are required to make the changes required to achieve god’s plan, whether in or outside of the prison.

 

[KathleenElsie]

I am sorry to hear of both cases the daughter with medical problems and the police officer unjustly shot. We must remember the incarceration process can always be improved. If the current process provides excessive danger to the guard we should change the process. My opinion is we are required to make the changes required to achieve god’s plan, whether in or outside of the prison.

Thank you. I believe the reason that Holy Mother Church leave open the DP to the governments in extreme cases is that their are sometimes extremes that can not be placed into our neat little boxes. So it is our governments responsibility to keep us all safe, prisoners, authorities and the public.

 

[blessedtoo]

Please point to a study that says the DP deters murder.

**

cbsnews.com/stories/2007/06/11/national/main2911428.shtml

****I think you better try to prove that as well. I believe the figure is in the hundreds. ****

**

First, why don’t YOU provide the proof since you are making the assertion.

Second, let’s determine some specifics. I believe Ender is referring to the exoneration of criminals who WERE executed, not those who were exonerated and freed. In the first example, mistakes were make. In the second, mistakes were PREVENTED because our justice system actually does work.****

 

[blessedtoo]

I get that prison guards lives ain’t worth squat stuff from a wide range of people. From my bosses to a lot of people on the street to every inmate I ever met( I expect that out of the inmates).

You won’t get that from faithful Catholics. I appreciate what you do and always think of those who protect the rest of us when arguing this issue. God bless!