Question for Assembly of God/Born Again Christians

[BrianH]

I must disagree with BrianH. “The Feast of the Dedication,” which is meantioned in the NT, is ONLY described in Mac. Also there are a few prophecies that are fulfilled in the Gospels which are only stated in those books. For instance, the Book of Wisdom, imho, gives the biggest peek into the Passion of Our Lord then any other OT book. AS I read those books I was shocked at how much of the NT is contained in them. For me, the Book of Sirach sums up the entire Bible, at least in the way one should act.

Yes it is only described there. I do not think that is in question. But that of course does not make it the source or that they were using that particular book. Think about it…everyone knew the Jewish celebrations…that does not make the book the source of that information. But yes, that is where it is mentioned in scripture. Literary dependence cannot be established from something that everyone knew about it. Does the writer of the NT only know about this from this particular source.

 

[BrianH]

I personally do not have the time to go through each one. I have used this list in the past in confidence that the source was trustworthy. If it is not I will gladly delete it from my list of apologetic source material.
In regards to this, I have written an e-mail to John Salza who runs the website scripturecatholic and included a link to this thread. Perhaps you could do the same. There is an email link at the bottom of the scripturecatholic page. Perhaps he will respond here which would be wonderful. That way we can get our answers “straight from the source”.
Of course I don’t know how soon I might get a response so…

Peace
James

Why did you view the source as trustworthy? Do you know him or have read something?
What is your view of the two I cited?

 

[JRKH]

Why did you view the source as trustworthy? Do you know him or have read something?
What is your view of the two I cited?

It was my assumption and I fully accept that I may have been in error.

I have no view on the two you cited.
I do appreicate your bringing the issue up.

I will wait for a response from the “author” of the source

Peace
James

 

[BrianH]

It was my assumption and I fully accept that I may have been in error.

I have no view on the two you cited.
I do appreicate your bringing the issue up.

I will wait for a response from the “author” of the source

Peace
James

James
Why do you have no view?
Would you agree that an earlier source cannot cite or come from a later source?
That Jefferson CANNOT quote Obama…

 

[JRKH]

James
Why do you have no view?
Would you agree that an earlier source cannot cite or come from a later source?
That Jefferson CANNOT quote Obama…

I have no view because I have not the time to really get into it and do the research.
I care for my wife who has Alzheimer’s disease.
So while I am able to get on the boards and participate and learn and share, it is very difficult for me to get too deeply involved in the type of research that might be necessary in this case. That is why I took the step of emailing “the source”.

And yes I do agree that Jefferson (Thomas) cannot quote Obama (Barrack).

Peace
James

 

[BrianH]

Let me do the research for anyone reading

1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the intercessory mediation of deceased Samuel for Saul follows Sirach 46:20.

2 Kings 2:1-13 – Elijah being taken up into heaven follows Sirach 48:9.

This is the claim.

This is when Sirach was written.

Written in Hebrew between 200 and 175 B.C., the text was translated into Greek sometime after 132 B.C. by the author’s grandson, who also wrote a Foreword which contains information about the book, the author, and the translator himself.

This is when Kings was written.

Without minimizing the complexity of the process by which this material was transmitted for many centuries, one may speak of two editions of the Books: the first at some time between 621 B.C. and 597 B.C., and the second, final edition during the Exile; probably shortly after Jehoiachin was released from his Babylonian prison (561 B.C.).

So Kings was written BEFORE Sirach. If someone came up and told you that Jefferson quoted Obama…actually its further apart that that…If I told you that Christopher Columbus quoted President Obama…you would not believe I had any credibility. THAT is why I choose to bring those two up first for anyone interested.

 

[Innocent3]

Yes it is only described there. I do not think that is in question. But that of course does not make it the source or that they were using that particular book. Think about it…everyone knew the Jewish celebrations…that does not make the book the source of that information. But yes, that is where it is mentioned in scripture. Literary dependence cannot be established from something that everyone knew about it. Does the writer of the NT only know about this from this particular source.

Either way, you have to accept Sacred Tradition and/or those inspired books. But you have created yourself a nice little loophole there. If I do show you something from the book you can say that the source is oral and there is no evidence that that book is the source.
But, if you choose to accept jewish oral tradition, then I have to wonder if you refuse to eat cheeseburgers. Please keep in mind that a good prophet can’t give bad fruit.

 

[BrianH]

Either way, you have to accept Sacred Tradition and/or those inspired books. But you have created yourself a nice little loophole there. If I do show you something from the book you can say that the source is oral and there is no evidence that that book is the source.
But, if you choose to accept jewish oral tradition, then I have to wonder if you refuse to eat cheeseburgers. Please keep in mind that a good prophet can’t give bad fruit.

I did not create a loophole when determining literary dependence. My point was valid. Everyone knew about the Festivals. Of course they did. Literary dependence is a different matter. The funny thing is most scholars I have read know that the DC are directly referred to in the NT in a very small capacity. There are considered to be 3-5 that no one really questions. This list however overstates the case.
Once you establish literary dependence though, it does not equate with it being canonical automatically because noncanonical sources are directly cited in the NT and OT both.
As far as your analogies, you don’t know me. I have always and will always listen to reasoned arguments and have absolutely changed my mind to support Catholic views when the evidence was strong.

 

[Innocent3]

I did not create a loophole when determining literary dependence. My point was valid. Everyone knew about the Festivals. Of course they did. Literary dependence is a different matter. The funny thing is most scholars I have read know that the DC are directly referred to in the NT in a very small capacity. There are considered to be 3-5 that no one really questions. This list however overstates the case.
Once you establish literary dependence though, it does not equate with it being canonical automatically because noncanonical sources are directly cited in the NT and OT both.
As far as your analogies, you don’t know me. I have always and will always listen to reasoned arguments and have absolutely changed my mind to support Catholic views when the evidence was strong.

It is a loophole, I gave you a quote and you brush it off and say “oh that’s tradition.”
Anyhoo, if you wish to make the case that jewish tradition is a good tree, and therefore can not produce bad fruit, do you refuse to eat cheeseburgers?

 

[BrianH]

It is a loophole, I gave you a quote and you brush it off and say “oh that’s tradition.”
Anyhoo, if you wish to make the case that jewish tradition is a good tree, and therefore can not produce bad fruit, do you refuse to eat cheeseburgers?

Jhn 10:22 ¶ And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

John 10:22 - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.

I do not think you can make a case of literary dependence in this case. Did the writer of John only know about this feast from the mention in Maccabees? It does not seem to be the case.
I do not really understand your last question. I think I might but go ahead and state it differently please. I will say first of all, it might help to ask my view prior to assuming it…but maybe you already know it but it does not seem likely because you have been around…almost ten days

 

[Innocent3]

I do not think you can make a case of literary dependence in this case. Did the writer of John only know about this feast from the mention in Maccabees?

THe even in Mac is the source of the event. It seems no matter what I say in relation to a connection, you can say, “oh that was tradition.” So there really is no winning this argument.

It does not seem to be the case.

We are not going on how things seem. You asked for a connection and there you have it.

I do not really understand your last question. I think I might but go ahead and state it differently please.

Our Lord said that you can’t get good fruit form a bad tree, or bad fruit from a good tree. Therefore, a prophet or tradition can not be good and also bad. So if you accept jewish tradition in regards to it being the source of revelation, then you msut accept the whole kit and caboodle. If jewish tradition is your source for the Feast of the Dedication, then you must also accept their tradition that having meat and dairy is a sin. Cheeseburger are a sin and illegal in “israel.” There is no picking and choosing.

I will say first of all, it might help to ask my view prior to assuming it…but maybe you already know it but it does not seem likely because you have been around…almost ten days

I am not arguing you prior view, but what you are stating now. And I’ll ask you not to make it personal and stick to the topic. Cool? Cool!

 

[BrianH]

THe even in Mac is the source of the event. It seems no matter what I say in relation to a connection, you can say, “oh that was tradition.” So there really is no winning this argument.

We are not going on how things seem. You asked for a connection and there you have it.

Our Lord said that you can’t get good fruit form a bad tree, or bad fruit from a good tree. Therefore, a prophet or tradition can not be good and also bad. So if you accept jewish tradition in regards to it being the source of revelation, then you msut accept the whole kit and caboodle. If jewish tradition is your source for the Feast of the Dedication, then you must also accept their tradition that having meat and dairy is a sin. Cheeseburger are a sin and illegal in “israel.” There is no picking and choosing.

I am not arguing you prior view, but what you are stating now. And I’ll ask you not to make it personal and stick to the topic. Cool? Cool!

Jewish tradition, Jewish history, and the Deuterocanonical books talk about the Feast of Dedication.
Anyone can know their history and not accept their traditions.
I know Muslim traditions. I do not “accept” their traditions in the sense they do.
Cheeseburgers are not illegal in Israel. Have you been to Israel? Now, yeah, they have Kosher beef but that is not illegal. Jerusalem has as many McDonalds as we do in my town it seemed.
I wonder if they have blackmarket hamburger stands?
And I did not say my prior view. Read what I said. I said ask me my view prior to assuming what it was. Thats not even close to being what you are stating. You do not know my views of the Deuterocanonicals and by and large since I am discussing the list they are almost immaterial. One thing you will learn is the value of having focused conversations. Mine are focused.
Anyone, your examples are just too odd to go on…I will stick to the list and anyone who wants to discuss it. I am not going to spend my time talking about illegal hamburgers…

 

[Innocent3]

Jewish tradition, Jewish history, and the Deuterocanonical books talk about the Feast of Dedication.

OK. We have established this. You are using tradition to as your source. Like I said, tradition can’t give both good and bad. If you accept this as good, do you eat cheeseburgers?

Anyone can know their history and not accept their traditions.

We are not talking about mere history here. We are not talking about a war. We are talking about a miracle. I don’t recall miracles being part of my history class. You are using tradition and you can’t even admit it.

I know Muslim traditions. I do not “accept” their traditions in the sense they do.

Good. Glad you are up on history. Can you site me a history book that teaches that Adam worshipped as a moslem? B/c that is moslem history. Do you accept that Adam worshipped as a moslem? B/c the NT author acceptable that the miracle of Rededicaiton happened.

Cheeseburgers are not illegal in Israel.

A restaurant can not be kosher if it serves cheeseburgers.

Have you been to Israel?

I haven’t been to Australia either, but I know they have kangaroos.

Now, yeah, they have Kosher beef but that is not illegal.

I’m not talking about meat, I am talking about how meat is forbidden to be served with dairy.

Jerusalem has as many McDonalds as we do in my town it seemed.

And if it is kosher, they won’t sell cheeseburgers.

I wonder if they have blackmarket hamburger stands?

Stalling. Please answer the question. You can’t accept SOME tradition and not all.

And I did not say my prior view. Read what I said. I said ask me my view prior to assuming what it was. Thats not even close to being what you are stating. You do not know my views of the Deuterocanonicals and by and large since I am discussing the list they are almost immaterial. One thing you will learn is the value of having focused conversations. Mine are focused.

So focused that you won’t answer a question but will go on about kosher meat? Or so focused that you have time to make attacks? Again, I am taking issue with something you said, not something you didn’t say.

Anyone, your examples are just too odd to go on…I will stick to the list and anyone who wants to discuss it. I am not going to spend my time talking about illegal hamburgers…

Cheeseburgers. If oyu are so savvy on jewish history/tradition then you would know that since God forbid the Hebrews to eat a kid boiled in its mother’s milk the jews no forbid a mixing of meat and dairy.
And I am not talking about the examples listed, I am tlaking about the examples I gave.

 

[BrianH]

The Feast of Dedication was known and all that the New Testament states is that this is the time the events were occuring during the year. You do not have to look at Maccabees to know that.

Jhn 10:22 ¶ And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
Jhn 10:23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon’s porch.

But the passage is merely referring to what time of the year it is. Did John the Apostle have to break out the Deuterocanonicals to understand when it was? No of course not. There is no literary dependence in this passage.

 

[BrianH]

Innocent3
I am still trying to understand your position. So I thought we needed to clarify.
We both agree that the NT clearly states that Christians are not under the OT dietary laws right?
I am trying to understand why Jewish Traditions you believe Christians must follow if at all. Thanks