Question for atheists

[CHRISTINE77]

Outside of a fictional context I’d have to disagree with you; I don’t think we all agree that we have all ever seen magic or supernatural or miracles or atleast don’t all agree that a certain event was from magic or a miracle.

It’s a sense of wonder that makes things magical. If you never look at the world with eyes of wonder, there is nothing that will make you see the magic. I consider almost everything in this God-created universe magical. It is utterly amazing.

 

[Bradski]

It’s a sense of wonder that makes things magical. If you never look at the world with eyes of wonder, there is nothing that will make you see the magic. I consider almost everything in this God-created universe magical. It is utterly amazing.

God either exists or He doesn’t. The world would be exactly the same either way.

Notwithstanding that, it’s a pretty grim place, truth be known. Some of us are lucky, most of the time, that we don’t get to see how it actually operates. Remove your rose coloured glasses and it’s a pretty ugly set up.

To be perfectly honest, I’m pretty sure that I couod have done a better job myself. The vast majority of every sentient creature that has ever lived has died in the most harrowing of circumstances. Makes me wonder why God made animals out of meat in the first place and then made those very creatures carnivores.

Something wrong there, surely.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

God either exists or He doesn’t. The world would be exactly the same either way.

Notwithstanding that, it’s a pretty grim place, truth be known. Some of us are lucky, most of the time, that we don’t get to see how it actually operates. Remove your rose coloured glasses and it’s a pretty ugly set up.

To be perfectly honest, I’m pretty sure that I couod have done a better job myself. The vast majority of every sentient creature that has ever lived has died in the most harrowing of circumstances. Makes me wonder why God made animals out of meat in the first place and then made those very creatures carnivores.

Something wrong there, surely.

Wow I’m sorry you find the world so ugly. I thought Australia was a beautiful magical place full of marsupials, oceans, coral reefs, huge blue skies etc…???

 

[Bradski]

Wow I’m sorry you find the world so ugly. I thought Australia was a beautiful magical place full of marsupials, oceans, coral reefs, huge blue skies etc…???

Personally I find the world, as it stands now, to be about as good as it gets. I would really struggle to think of something I would change in my little portion of this paradise on earth.

But make no mistake, I know that I am exceptionally lucky. I am an exceptionally tiny portion of everyone who has lived who has enough to eat, who has not had to go to war or send a son to war, who has not lived in fear, who has good health and all the freedoms a person could want.

If I believed in God then I would be on my knees every day thanking Him for what I have had and I have now.

But it’s because I know that the world is a frightening, depressing and badly organised mess that I apreciate my position. We step outside our little bubbles of safety and comfort at our peril. And you say that this is all God’s handiwork?

Like I said, I could have organised it better myself.

 

[Mort_Alz]

God either exists or He doesn’t. The world would be exactly the same either way.

Notwithstanding that, it’s a pretty grim place, truth be known. Some of us are lucky, most of the time, that we don’t get to see how it actually operates. Remove your rose coloured glasses and it’s a pretty ugly set up.

To be perfectly honest, I’m pretty sure that I couod have done a better job myself. The vast majority of every sentient creature that has ever lived has died in the most harrowing of circumstances. Makes me wonder why God made animals out of meat in the first place and then made those very creatures carnivores.

Something wrong there, surely.

“Ironic” is an overused and misused word, but I don’t have a better word to describe this post. Statistically, people with solid reasons to have a bleak outlook on the world and life are more likely to be religious. Even in countries where atheism is more normalized, if a major disaster happens, instances of belief increase during the struggle. I’m talking about people who can’t even wear rose colored glasses if they wanted to: people who have starvation, violence and disease rip those glasses off and smash them into pieces. They are more likely to believe than not.

(Of course, that says nothing about whether or not the supernatural is real or not.)

One of the reasons I converted to Catholicism from Evangelicalism was that it wasn’t shy about acknowledging human suffering. That’s why the major symbol of Catholicism is the crucifix. To be Christian is to suffer, and, sometimes, not even heroically. Sometimes, you suffer for no rhyme or reason at all. That’s part of what makes suffering suffering. One of our biggest spiritual responsibilities is to learn how to suffer. Not learn how to alleviate it or avoid it. (We hardly need religion to do that. Nature moves us to do that on its own.) But, most of the time, doing the right thing causes some suffering in us; some level of sacrifice. The theologians say that it is only when one has become very spiritually advanced that true virtue doesn’t hurt anymore. That it becomes a joy to suffer and be scorned. And, I don’t mean in the deluded sense with which the American religious right thinks they are being “persecuted.” It doesn’t count as real suffering if it just makes you self-righteous. I think they enjoy thinking of themselves as being persecuted.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Personally I find the world, as it stands now, to be about as good as it gets. I would really struggle to think of something I would change in my little portion of this paradise on earth.

But make no mistake, I know that I am exceptionally lucky. I am an exceptionally tiny portion of everyone who has lived who has enough to eat, who has not had to go to war or send a son to war, who has not lived in fear, who has good health and all the freedoms a person could want.

If I believed in God then I would be on my knees every day thanking Him for what I have had and I have now.

But it’s because I know that the world is a frightening, depressing and badly organised mess that I apreciate my position. We step outside our little bubbles of safety and comfort at our peril. And you say that this is all God’s handiwork?

Like I said, I could have organised it better myself.

It may not be as bad as you are making it out. Even in starving countries there are happy people and people who love their lives and God. It’s the ungrateful, atheistic countries where there is despair, suicide and depression.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

“Ironic” is an overused and misused word, but I don’t have a better word to describe this post. Statistically, people with solid reasons to have a bleak outlook on the world and life are more likely to be religious. Even in countries where atheism is more normalized, if a major disaster happens, instances of belief increase during the struggle. I’m talking about people who can’t even wear rose colored glasses if they wanted to: people who have starvation, violence and disease rip those glasses off and smash them into pieces. They are more likely to believe than not.

Just remember the solution: “The beating will continue until the morale improves”. So if things are nice, if people are happy and well balanced, then we must raise the level of misery and pain, so people will turn to God. Very strange concept.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Just remember the solution: “The beating will continue until the morale improves”. So if things are nice, if people are happy and well balanced, then we must raise the level of misery and pain, so people will turn to God. Very strange concept.

Not really. Spoiled people never are grateful. They think everything should be their way, with their stupid cell phones etc. Humble people know everything is for God.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Not really. Spoiled people never are grateful. They think everything should be their way, with their stupid cell phones etc. Humble people know everything is for God.

So, let’s spread pain, suffering and misery all around. Let’s burn the crops, let’s destroy the vaccines, let’s poison the water supply! That is how people will turn to God… and looks like the end actually justifies the means - in this case, at least.

 

[Mort_Alz]

Just remember the solution: “The beating will continue until the morale improves”. So if things are nice, if people are happy and well balanced, then we must raise the level of misery and pain, so people will turn to God. Very strange concept.

That’s not the point. The point is that suffering is inescapable, not that we should actively try to increase it. You could only draw that conclusion from my post by actively trying to misunderstand it.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

That’s not the point. The point is that suffering is inescapable, not that we should actively try to increase it. You could only draw that conclusion from my post by actively trying to misunderstand it.

Yes, that is the point. If suffering brings one closer to God, then it is logical and rational to embrace and welcome it, instead of fighting or avoiding it. Small pain, big gain? And then the next logical step is: “big pain, huge gain!”.

 

[Aloysium]

Yes, that is the point. If suffering brings one closer to God, then it is logical and rational to embrace and welcome it, instead of fighting or avoiding it. Small pain, big gain? And then the next logical step is: “big pain, huge gain!”.

That’s not the next logical step.

The logical step is that we derive happiness from the overcoming. We are only momentarily satisfied when things go our way. Once the toothache is gone, who appreciates months down the road being pain-free. When things go wrong, is when we rise to the challenge, when people come together to help one another, when we reach out and give of ourselves, that’s when we are fulfilled. We are all different and a big part of being happy is constitutional, genetic if you like, built in, maybe 50%. Many of us have psychological crosses to bear. 10% or so of our happiness is determined by our circumstances - wealth, social status and other things that we get used to having very quickly. So, 40% of how good we feel about life is the result of our attitude towards what we encounter. And, religion plays a significant role in people’s happiness.

Suffering makes us question our existence, to look for an answer as to why it is, why it actually hurts and who it is who feels the hurt. We look for real answers because the pain is indisputably real. And that is where we find God, who assists us in our struggle, who actually cares about and knows the hurt we are feeling.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Personally I find the world, as it stands now, to be about as good as it gets. I would really struggle to think of something I would change in my little portion of this paradise on earth.

But make no mistake, I know that I am exceptionally lucky. I am an exceptionally tiny portion of everyone who has lived who has enough to eat, who has not had to go to war or send a son to war, who has not lived in fear, who has good health and all the freedoms a person could want.

If I believed in God then I would be on my knees every day thanking Him for what I have had and I have now.

But it’s because I know that the world is a frightening, depressing and badly organised mess that I apreciate my position. We step outside our little bubbles of safety and comfort at our peril. And you say that this is all God’s handiwork?

Like I said, I could have organised it better myself.

Why do you think that all of the problems of the world reflect God’s handiwork? Christian teaching holds that what you currently enjoy (and more) WOULD have been the experience of all mankind if not for Adam’s decision to disobey God’s commands.

IOW, it’s not God’s fault that we have screwed things up so badly.

However, your natural inclination to say “thank” [to someone] for the good things you are blessed with are correct: God created a wonderful world through which you may still get a glimpse of His goodness despite the problems we have created through our own efforts.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yes, that is the point. If suffering brings one closer to God, then it is logical and rational to embrace and welcome it, instead of fighting or avoiding it. Small pain, big gain? And then the next logical step is: “big pain, huge gain!”.

Suffering CAN bring one closer to God but it can also simply make one bitter and resentful toward God who should have done something to make things better, right?

I cannot begin to count the number of atheists I have spoken with in other forums who were believers at one point but who abandoned their faith when things didn’t go their way. Who did they blame? Who else? All suffering is God’s fault, right?

:nope:

 

[CHRISTINE77]

So, let’s spread pain, suffering and misery all around. Let’s burn the crops, let’s destroy the vaccines, let’s poison the water supply! That is how people will turn to God… and looks like the end actually justifies the means - in this case, at least.

Not at all! I am just saying people who are not subjected to all the modern world technology seem to have a more loving attitude toward life, creation, and God. It seems the more “advanced” we get, the further we get from the beauty of God’s creation, and become unhappier and ungrateful for the small, real things in life.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Yes, that is the point. If suffering brings one closer to God, then it is logical and rational to embrace and welcome it, instead of fighting or avoiding it. Small pain, big gain? And then the next logical step is: “big pain, huge gain!”.

We all have to suffer at some point in our lives. It does make us stronger usually because we suddenly get a new viewpoint on life. You can go along day after day doing the same things and not be very happy or grateful for your health and your life. Then perhaps you get sick, or someone dies that you love, or you lose your job, etc. - something that shakes you out of the mundane into the extraordinary. That old adage “what doesn’t kill you, makes you stronger” is very true.

 

[Bradski]

Why do you think that all of the problems of the world reflect God’s handiwork? Christian teaching holds that what you currently enjoy (and more) WOULD have been the experience of all mankind if not for Adam’s decision to disobey God’s commands.

I don’t think all the problems that we have are God’s handiwork. Remember that I’m one of the guys who doesn’t believe He exists.

And please, do not try to tell me that the problems of the world are caused because someone who didn’t physically exist ate some metaphorical fruit. It’s the biggest get-out-of jail card ever envisaged.

Why is the world such a mess? Well, you can’t blame God - it was a guy listening to his missus that did it. God shrugs His shoulders and nods towards Adam: ‘Don’t look at me. He’s the guy you want to blame’.

If you made a list of all the things concerned with Catholicism that ran from completely believable over there on the right to ‘I can’t believe they’re even suggesting this is true’ over there on the left, then you’d have to take a packed lunch with you on your journey to the beginning of that list where original sin is noted.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Suffering CAN bring one closer to God but it can also simply make one bitter and resentful toward God who should have done something to make things better, right?

I cannot begin to count the number of atheists I have spoken with in other forums who were believers at one point but who abandoned their faith when things didn’t go their way. Who did they blame? Who else? All suffering is God’s fault, right?

:nope:

Well, I used to be a believer. But I did not lose my faith due to some resentment. Of course I was wondering how could a loving God allow all the atrocities, but that was only the first crack in the wall - and I was rather young at that time.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Well, I used to be a believer. But I did not lose my faith due to some resentment. Of course I was wondering how could a loving God allow all the atrocities, but that was only the first crack in the wall - and I was rather young at that time.

Many Christians lose their faith during their youth. That’s not surprising given the total warfare against religion that permeates every corner of our civilization. Most of the famous atheists became atheists before they got out of their teens. We know this because they admitted it. But that suggests to me a very limited grasp of religion to begin with, and then a radical short-circuit of all religious impulses for the rest of their lives.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Many Christians lose their faith during their youth. That’s not surprising given the total warfare against religion that permeates every corner of our civilization. Most of the famous atheists became atheists before they got out of their teens. We know this because they admitted it. But that suggests to me a very limited grasp of religion to begin with, and then a radical short-circuit of all religious impulses for the rest of their lives.

That is not even close to what happened to me. Anyhow, let me give you a joke:

Q: Who are the people who belong to a religious cult?
A: All those people who go to worship to the church next to yours.