Question for Baha'i

[openmind77]

This was the answer from that post

“The other station is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation, and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation”.

Thus Muhammad’ mission was that of the “Seal of the Prophets” The age pf prophesy was completed by Muhammad and the age of Fulfillment was ushered in by the declaration of the Bab. Baha’ullah was the Fulfillment and this cycle will last for 500,000 years. It will be 1000 years before the next manifestation!

Gos Bless and Regards Tony

I think you are saying that all of these (Jesus, Muhammad, Mr Bab and Bahaullah) are manifestations of God.

But you seem to be saying that Muhammad was a Prophet and not a Son of God, is that correct?

So is Jesus also a Prophet since he came in the age of prophesy?

 

[tonyfish58]

I think you are saying that all of these (Jesus, Muhammad, Mr Bab and Bahaullah) are manifestations of God.

But you seem to be saying that Muhammad was a Prophet and not a Son of God, is that correct?

So is Jesus also a Prophet since he came in the age of prophesy?

You said “I think you are saying that all of these (Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’ullah) are Manifestations of God”.

I would say Yes this is correct. Though each of these was sent by God for a specific reason at a specific time in mans development, the way I understand it is they could all claim to be whatever they wish. Thus who am I to restrict it to either the Son of God or the Seal of the Prophets etc etc!

I will put it this way, when I think of Christ I think of Him in all He claimed to be and all the other Stations of God I am aware of. There would be thousands upon thousands more that I am not aware of! Baha’u’llah explains that there is no Distinction between any of the Prophets on one hand and then explains the Station of Distinction. That is in the quotes I posted above (The Long One

Yes Jesus is a Prophet, but as I said He also Manifests all the other Stations of God even though at the time it may not appear so!

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[openmind77]

You said “I think you are saying that all of these (Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’ullah) are Manifestations of God”.

I would say Yes this is correct. Though each of these was sent by God for a specific reason at a specific time in mans development, the way I understand it is they could all claim to be whatever they wish. Thus who am I to restrict it to either the Son of God or the Seal of the Prophets etc etc!

I will put it this way, when I think of Christ I think of Him in all He claimed to be and all the other Stations of God I am aware of. There would be thousands upon thousands more that I am not aware of! Baha’u’llah explains that there is no Distinction between any of the Prophets on one hand and then explains the Station of Distinction. That is in the quotes I posted above (The Long One

Yes Jesus is a Prophet, but as I said He also Manifests all the other Stations of God even though at the time it may not appear so!

God Bless and Regards Tony

So if both Jesus and Muhammad are Prophets and both also Manifest all the stations of God, then according Bahais, Muhammad is also a Son of God (like Jesus)?

 

[tonyfish58]

So if both Jesus and Muhammad are Prophets and both also Manifest all the stations of God, then according Bahais, Muhammad is also a Son of God (like Jesus)?

From my understanding of what is written, then I would say if Muhammad Claimed this to be so then it would be True with no Shadow of a Doubt. If Muhammad did not claim this specific Station, then it it does not mean it is not so!

That is the best as I can explain it!

Bod Bless and Regards Tony

 

[openmind77]

From my understanding of what is written, then I would say if Muhammad Claimed this to be so then it would be True with no Shadow of a Doubt. If Muhammad did not claim this specific Station, then it it does not mean it is not so!

That is the best as I can explain it!

Bod Bless and Regards Tony

I don’t believe Muhammad claimed any such thing. My questions were related to what Bahais beliefs are, not what anyone’s claims are.

What I am trying to understand is if in the eyes of all Bahais (as taught by Bahaullah) are both Jesus and Muhammad equivalent religious figures?

If Jesus is a Son of God as well as a Prophet, do Bahais believe that Muhammad was also a Son of God as well as a Prophet? Or are Jesus and Muhammad in some way different - i.e. Jesus is a Son of God but Muhammad is not? What do Bahais believe?

 

[arthra]

It may be helpful to explain that we Baha’is do not accept Jesus as the literal physical “Son of God”… for us “Son of God” is more of a spiritual station.

*“As regards to your questions concerning the station of Jesus Christ, and His return as explained in the Gospel. It is true that Jesus referred to Himself as the Son of God, but this, as explained by Bahá’u’lláh in the 'Íqán, **does not indicate any Physical relationship whatever. Its meaning is entirely spiritual and points to the close relationship existing between Him and the Almighty God. **Nor does it necessarily indicate any inherent superiority in the station of Jesus over other Prophets and Messengers. As far as their spiritual nature is concerned all Prophets can be regarded as Sons of God, as they all reflect His light, though not in an equal measure, and this difference in reflection is due to the conditions and circumstances under which they appear.”
*
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, November 29, 1937)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 491)

 

[openmind77]

It may be helpful to explain that we Baha’is do not accept Jesus as the literal physical “Son of God”… for us “Son of God” is more of a spiritual station.

*“As regards to your questions concerning the station of Jesus Christ, and His return as explained in the Gospel. It is true that Jesus referred to Himself as the Son of God, but this, as explained by Bahá’u’lláh in the 'Íqán, **does not indicate any Physical relationship whatever. Its meaning is entirely spiritual and points to the close relationship existing between Him and the Almighty God. ***Nor does it necessarily indicate any inherent superiority in the station of Jesus over other Prophets and Messengers. As far as their spiritual nature is concerned all Prophets can be regarded as Sons of God, as they all reflect His light, though not in an equal measure, and this difference in reflection is due to the conditions and circumstances under which they appear.”

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, November 29, 1937)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 491)

Thanks, you answer does help quite a bit.

I now understand that Bahais believe that Jesus was not in anyway special as a "Son of God’ or any different from other Prophets like Muhammad or Moses or Bahaullah.

This has been confusing me because someone said a few posts earlier that according to Bahais, Jesus was ‘the Lord of all Creation’. According to you if this is indeed true than Muhammad and Moses and Bahaullah are equally ‘Lords of Creation’ - ie they are all of equivalent spiritual status.

I of course, personally, believe that Jesus was a special ‘Son of God’ and that none of the other three are divine in the same way as Jesus.

 

[Servant19]

Thanks, you answer does help quite a bit.

I now understand that Bahais believe that Jesus was not in anyway special as a "Son of God’ or any different from other Prophets like Muhammad or Moses or Bahaullah.

This has been confusing me because someone said a few posts earlier that according to Bahais, Jesus was ‘the Lord of all Creation’. According to you if this is indeed true than Muhammad and Moses and Bahaullah are equally ‘Lords of Creation’ - ie they are all of equivalent spiritual status.

I of course, personally, believe that Jesus was a special ‘Son of God’ and that none of the other three are divine in the same way as Jesus.

Hi openmind,

What do you think is the source of the Words of Baha’u’llah and Muhammad?

Do you think that they were simply speaking after pondering a subject for a few days, then they gathered their followers and they said what they were pondering about for a while, and that eventually was the way the Quran and the Baha’i Writings were revealed?

Thats’ actually a question for all to think about answering

.

 

[openmind77]

Hi openmind,

What do you think is the source of the Words of Baha’u’llah and Muhammad?

Do you think that they were simply speaking after pondering a subject for a few days, then they gathered their followers and they said what they were pondering about for a while, and that eventually was the way the Quran and the Baha’i Writings were revealed?

Thats’ actually a question for all to think about answering

.

Obviously both Muhammad and Bahaullah were divinely inspired. In other words God spoke to each of them (perhaps through an intermediary as in the case of Muhammad). This is how the Koran and the Bahai writings came into being (although there are mistakes in both, since being human neither could receive the message perfectly)

In the case of Jesus, he himself was a divine incarnation (although he did speak to the Father for guidance). The sermon on the mount, the beatitudes, the parables are Christ’s own words and teachings - and there are no mistakes in them.

That is the difference between Jesus and the other two.

 

[Servant19]

Obviously both Muhammad and Bahaullah were divinely inspired. In other words God spoke to each of them (perhaps through an intermediary as in the case of Muhammad). This is how the Koran and the Bahai writings came into being (although there are mistakes in both, since being human neither could receive the message perfectly)

In the case of Jesus, he himself was a divine incarnation (although he did speak to the Father for guidance). The sermon on the mount, the beatitudes, the parables are Christ’s own words and teachings - and there are no mistakes in them.

That is the difference between Jesus and the other two.

Dear friend,

Again, if there are imperfections, either they heard what God told them to say and then they pondered it for a while, then they “revealed” it meaning there was imperfect “insertions” being revealed…

OR,

…as is the case with Baha’u’llah, His entire being began to shake, the room was suddenly transformed into a rose-scented spiritual garden, and the Words simply came out, or in Baha’u’llah and the Bab’s case, GUSHED out, so rapidly that sometimes up to 8 amanuenses were required to record the Words in perfect accuracy.

There was no time to “ponder” anything in Baha’u’llah’s case, so its either the pure Word of God (with zero imperfections, because God does not reveal imperfect Words) or it is the pure words of a human being who was psychologically deranged and could somehow create rose-scented rooms at will wherever He went, and basically regurgitated His previously memorized script faster than the fastest rap artist ever seen

Which do you think it was dear friend?

 

[openmind77]

Dear friend,

Again, if there are imperfections, either they heard what God told them to say and then they pondered it for a while, then they “revealed” it meaning there was imperfect “insertions” being revealed…

OR,

…as is the case with Baha’u’llah, His entire being began to shake, the room was suddenly transformed into a rose-scented spiritual garden, and the Words simply came out, or in Baha’u’llah and the Bab’s case, GUSHED out, so rapidly that sometimes up to 8 amanuenses were required to record the Words in perfect accuracy.

There was no time to “ponder” anything in Baha’u’llah’s case, so its either the pure Word of God (with zero imperfections, because God does not reveal imperfect Words) or it is the pure words of a human being who was psychologically deranged and could somehow create rose-scented rooms at will wherever He went, and basically regurgitated His previously memorized script faster than the fastest rap artist ever seen

Which do you think it was dear friend?

I am not quite sure what your question is - do you want me to figure out how mistakes/misinterpretations were made by Muhammad or Bahaullah in receiving messages from God (or in the case of Muhammad a intermediary who he identified as Gabriel)? Does it really matter how this happened?

As for phenomena like rose-scented rooms etc, these are common occurrences with many holy men in India - I am not saying they are not significant - they are just not all that unique.

Muhammad for instance never understood the Trinitarian nature of God. Bahaullah seems to have a rather confused view of the Trinity (which he seems to have cobbled together by reading Christian literature). These two men unlike Jesus, were clearly not divine beings who had this knowledge within themselves, There are other examples of confusion and misinterpretation.

 

[Servant19]

I am not quite sure what your question is - do you want me to figure out how mistakes/misinterpretations were made by Muhammad or Bahaullah in receiving messages from God (or in the case of Muhammad a intermediary who he identified as Gabriel)? Does it really matter how this happened?

As for phenomena like rose-scented rooms etc, these are common occurrences with many holy men in India - I am not saying they are not significant - they are just not all that unique.

Muhammad for instance never understood the Trinitarian nature of God. Bahaullah seems to have a rather confused view of the Trinity (which he seems to have cobbled together by reading Christian literature). These two men unlike Jesus, were clearly not divine beings who had this knowledge within themselves, There are other examples of confusion and misinterpretation.

Ok forget about the rose-scented stuff, that obviously distracted my main point I’m trying to humbly put forward

How does God, being Perfect in every conceivable way, possibly choose such an imperfect Temple for His Message to be relayed to humanity?

Either God has a Message that He wishes to relay to humanity, or He doesn’t. If He has a message, then a Perfect God would get the job done, wouldn’t He?

Why would He “cobble things together” from His older Messages etc and get things so messed up?

It is clear (to me anyway) that the seeming contradictions between one Revelation to another is due to the nature of the language used at the time (AT THE TIME) and its intended purpose to those receiving the Message.

There is no halfway house. Either the Prophet is correct in EVERYTHING He says, if indeed He is from God (as you say you believe) or He is a liar and a deceiver.

Logic dictates there is no Prophet who speaks the Word of God yet gets it all wrong…or even some of it wrong. It simply implies an imperfect God if that was the case

.

 

[tonyfish58]

Thanks, you answer does help quite a bit.

I now understand that Bahais believe that Jesus was not in anyway special as a "Son of God’ or any different from other Prophets like Muhammad or Moses or Bahaullah.

This has been confusing me because someone said a few posts earlier that according to Bahais, Jesus was ‘the Lord of all Creation’. According to you if this is indeed true than Muhammad and Moses and Bahaullah are equally ‘Lords of Creation’ - ie they are all of equivalent spiritual status.

I of course, personally, believe that Jesus was a special ‘Son of God’ and that none of the other three are divine in the same way as Jesus.

openmind77 - I would like to humbly suggest that this understanding in not correct as to what Baha’is believe

Your statement would impute that Baha’is do not see Christ in the Splendor of His Full Glory, to which we would reply we do.

The way it may help to think about it is that we take none of them down from the Most Glorious Height of “I Am”. We see them all at the utmost Level of Gods Glory that a man could ever devise!

If all the Atoms of the Universe were to turn in to tongues of Praise and in all our life on this earth for every second of the day we used these tongues to Praise, we could still not offer more than the black in the eye of a dead ant of Praise to these Most Glorious of Beings.

So all the Magnanimity, Love, Service, Dedication etc you could attribute to Christ, we contribute to all.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[openmind77]

Ok forget about the rose-scented stuff, that obviously distracted my main point I’m trying to humbly put forward

How does God, being Perfect in every conceivable way, possibly choose such an imperfect Temple for His Message to be relayed to humanity?

Either God has a Message that He wishes to relay to humanity, or He doesn’t. If He has a message, then a Perfect God would get the job done, wouldn’t He?

Why would He “cobble things together” from His older Messages etc and get things so messed up?

It is clear (to me anyway) that the seeming contradictions between one Revelation to another is due to the nature of the language used at the time (AT THE TIME) and its intended purpose to those receiving the Message.

There is no halfway house. Either the Prophet is correct in EVERYTHING He says, if indeed He is from God (as you say you believe) or He is a liar and a deceiver.

Logic dictates there is no Prophet who speaks the Word of God yet gets it all wrong…or even some of it wrong. It simply implies an imperfect God if that was the case

.

Who ever said anything about ‘such an imperfect being’? I would say Muhammad as well as Bahaullah were the best humans available to God for sending his message out in that specific region (Arabia/Persia). There is really no such thing as a perfect human being (Jesus was divine as well as human). A Prophet is correct in EVERYTHING!!! What gave you that idea? Think of these - ‘the earth is flat’, the Sun revolves around the Earth, the EARTH is 6000 years old, women do not have the same rights as men, etc

In any case who said anything about getting it ALL wrong? I would say, both of them got most things correct. What does the Trinitarian nature of God matter to illiterate Arabs to whom Muhammad was mostly preaching? A single God is much easier to believe and follow! I am merely saying that neither was a Son of God similar to Jesus.

 

[Servant19]

Who ever said anything about ‘such an imperfect being’? I would say Muhammad as well as Bahaullah were the best humans available to God for sending his message out in that specific region (Arabia/Persia). There is really no such thing as a perfect human being (Jesus was divine as well as human). A Prophet is correct in EVERYTHING!!! What gave you that idea? Think of these - ‘the earth is flat’, the Sun revolves around the Earth, the EARTH is 6000 years old, women do not have the same rights as men, etc

In any case who said anything about getting it ALL wrong? I would say, both of them got most things correct. What does the Trinitarian nature of God matter to illiterate Arabs to whom Muhammad was mostly preaching? A single God is much easier to believe and follow! I am merely saying that neither was a Son of God similar to Jesus.

Yes but on what basis do you make this conclusion?

What is the basis to not assign Divinity to Baha’u’llah and Muhammad?

Baha’u’llah said that He is a Prophet and the Father, and Jehovah. His Words were directly from God. Are these Words deceptive lies in your opinion?

I thank you for your thoughts dear friend

.

 

[openmind77]

…
Your statement would impute that Baha’is do not see Christ in the Splendor of His Full Glory, to which we would reply we do.

Actually I did not say imply any such thing.

The way it may help to think about it is that we take none of them down from the Most Glorious Height of “I Am”. We see them all at the utmost Level of Gods Glory that a man could ever devise! ,

That is exactly my point. The same exalted position you attribute to Moses and Muhammad as you do to Jesus is not warranted at all.How can they all be ‘Lords of Creation’ ? In any case, even Jesus did not claim to be a ‘Lord of Creation’ - whatever that is!

Bahais need to tone down their rhetoric, get down to earth and see Prophets like Moses, Muhammad, Bahaullah for what they really are - imperfect men doing their best to interpret revelations that they have received from God or his intermediaries.

 

[openmind77]

Yes but on what basis do you make this conclusion?

What is the basis to not assign Divinity to Baha’u’llah and Muhammad?

Baha’u’llah said that He is a Prophet and the Father, and Jehovah. His Words were directly from God. Are these Words deceptive lies in your opinion?

I thank you for your thoughts dear friend

.

I would say that the burden of proof for claims of divinity should be the other way around.

Anyway, who said anything about ‘deceptive lies’? That is like saying Newton lied because he did not talk about the Theory of Relativity.

Bahaullah is definitely a Prophet. As for The Father and Jehovah? All his words directly from God? Very doubtful.

As I have said before we need to wait for the Return of the Christ to get a much better picture of reality. I expect it to happen in the next 2-3 years - so it is not such a long wait.

 

[Servant19]

I would say that the burden of proof for claims of divinity should be the other way around.

Anyway, who said anything about ‘deceptive lies’? That is like saying Newton lied because he did not talk about the Theory of Relativity.

Bahaullah is definitely a Prophet. As for The Father and Jehovah? All his words directly from God? Very doubtful.

As I have said before we need to wait for the Return of the Christ to get a much better picture of reality. I expect it to happen in the next 2-3 years - so it is not such a long wait.

Dear friend, the burden of proof lies in the person making the claim. You claim that Jesus was divine and Baha’u’llah was not. On what basis do you make that claim please?

.

 

[openmind77]

Dear friend, the burden of proof lies in the person making the claim. You claim that Jesus was divine and Baha’u’llah was not. On what basis do you make that claim please?

.

That Jesus was a divine Son of God is pretty much accepted as fact by over a billion people in the world. I am not sure why I need to prove it to you.

If you make the claim that Bahaullah is the Father (and he is Jehovah) and I claim that he is not, you are suggesting that I need to prove my claim and you do not? That sounds very strange!

Both Muhammad and Bahaullah were great Prophets and that is all we can say about them. None of them came to close to being a divine incarnation like Jesus.

 

[Servant19]

That Jesus was a divine Son of God is pretty much accepted as fact by over a billion people in the world. I am not sure why I need to prove it to you.

If you make the claim that Bahaullah is the Father (and he is Jehovah) and I claim that he is not, you are suggesting that I need to prove my claim and you do not? That sounds very strange!

Both Muhammad and Bahaullah were great Prophets and that is all we can say about them. None of them came to close to being a divine incarnation like Jesus.

Hi openmind, firstly I don’t make the claim that Baha’u’llah is the Father. Why would I? Baha’u’llah claims this Himself.

Secondly, how do you know that a billion Christians are right, yet a billion Muslims are wrong?

Weight of numbers does not decide truth. Is that how you concluded that Jesus is Divine and Muhammad is not?