Question for Baha'i

[openmind77]

Hi openmind, firstly I don’t make the claim that Baha’u’llah is the Father. Why would I? Baha’u’llah claims this Himself.

Secondly, how do you know that a billion Christians are right, yet a billion Muslims are wrong?

Weight of numbers does not decide truth. Is that how you concluded that Jesus is Divine and Muhammad is not?

Who said billion Muslims are wrong? Muslims have never claimed that Muhammad was Son of God or anything remotely like that. I agree with them.

I accept the claim of both the billion Christians and the billion Muslims regarding the status of their respective founders.

It is the Bahai claim that Bahaullah is the Father that I have difficulty swallowing - the fact that Bahaullah himself claims it, does not make it any truer. It actually sounds rather silly to claim oneself to be the Father - whose Father? BTW, when you say that you yourself do not claim that Bahaullah is the Father, does that mean you do not believe him also?

 

[Servant19]

Who said billion Muslims are wrong? Muslims have never claimed that Muhammad was Son of God or anything remotely like that. I agree with them.

I accept the claim of both the billion Christians and the billion Muslims regarding the status of their respective founders.

It is the Bahai claim that Bahaullah is the Father that I have difficulty swallowing - the fact that Bahaullah himself claims it, does not make it any truer. It actually sounds rather silly to claim oneself to be the Father - whose Father? BTW, when you say that you yourself do not claim that Bahaullah is the Father, does that mean you do not believe him also?

But Muslims do claim that Jesus was not God, nor was He the Son of God. So which group of billion people is right in your eyes??

(This is wonderful because soon you will study that Baha’u’llah has explained everything on this matter, and is the ONLY Force that can unite two huge groups of conflicting peoples)

.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

How does God, being Perfect in every conceivable way, possibly choose such an imperfect Temple for His Message to be relayed to humanity?

Either God has a Message that He wishes to relay to humanity, or He doesn’t. If He has a message, then a Perfect God would get the job done, wouldn’t He?

.

Christ is perfect, the fullfilment of the promises of the Old Testamenf. The Lamb of God, The Only Begotten Son of God. All in singular. Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

No one can go to the Father except through Him.

He is the Perfect choice of the Father. Not an imperfect temple.

 

[Servant19]

Christ is perfect, the fullfilment of the promises of the Old Testamenf. The Lamb of God, The Only Begotten Son of God. All in singular. Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

No one can go to the Father except through Him.

He is the Perfect choice of the Father. Not an imperfect temple.

Agreed.

.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Agreed.

.

Who were you referring to as an imperfect temple?

 

[openmind77]

But Muslims do claim that Jesus was not God, nor was He the Son of God. So which group of billion people is right in your eyes??

(This is wonderful because soon you will study that Baha’u’llah has explained everything on this matter, and is the ONLY Force that can unite two huge groups of conflicting peoples)

.

I would not take their opinion about some other religion’s founder at face value. Obviously they would be prejudiced and claim that he is not that special. that is quite natural.

We don’t need a self-appointed ‘Father’ to unite the two huge groups. The Christ will return and be here is a few years and do just that.

 

[Servant19]

Who were you referring to as an imperfect temple?

If God has a Chosen One to deliver His Message, then the Words that are spoken and revealed must be perfect.

The Will of God as revealed by His Word is designed with a specific purpose and a specific outcome in mind. When it is revealed in the form of a Human Temple, there cannot be any imperfections in the delivery of that Revelation. Otherwise it implies that God cannot get His act together to get His message accross to humanity perfectly, which means God is imperfect.

Although you do not believe so, Baha’is beleive that the Human Temples of Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah were perfectly designed to reveal God’s Word with 100% accuracy and precision.

How that Word was recorded and understood and interpreted over the subsequent centuries is the main cause of religious conflict, because the “interpreters” of God’s Word were not His Chosen Ones, but merely inspired human beings…

.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

If God has a Chosen One to deliver His Message, then the Words that are spoken and revealed must be perfect.

The Will of God as revealed by His Word is designed with a specific purpose and a specific outcome in mind. When it is revealed in the form of a Human Temple, there cannot be any imperfections in the delivery of that Revelation. Otherwise it implies that God cannot get His act together to get His message accross to humanity perfectly, which means God is imperfect.

Although you do not believe so, Baha’is beleive that the Human Temples of Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah were perfectly designed to reveal God’s Word with 100% accuracy and precision.

How that Word was recorded and understood and interpreted over the subsequent centuries is the main cause of religious conflict, because the “interpreters” of God’s Word were not His Chosen Ones, but merely inspired human beings…

.

There have been many prophets but only one word of God.

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

One.

You say you agree with what I said, but it doesn’t sound like you do.

 

[Servant19]

There have been many prophets but only one word of God.

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

One.

You say you agree with what I said, but it doesn’t sound like you do.

Thankyou Isaiah

What do you understand about the concept of a Word being a Human Being?

What does that mean to you?

.

 

[Servant19]

I would not take their opinion about some other religion’s founder at face value. Obviously they would be prejudiced and claim that he is not that special. that is quite natural.

We don’t need a self-appointed ‘Father’ to unite the two huge groups. The Christ will return and be here is a few years and do just that.

But you take the word of a Church that “self-appoints” a God-man?

You have not explained why you think Jesus was Divine? Is it purely out of numbers that believe that way?

There is an Islamic tradition that states Muhammad as saying

“There is a relationship where I am I and He is He, yet I am He and He is Me!”
Does that not say that Muhammad claimed Divinity?
1 billion people believe that…does that make them right?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Thankyou Isaiah

What do you understand about the concept of a Word being a Human Being?

What does that mean to you?

.

Quite simple:

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The witness of the Apostles and their successors in an uninterrupted line.

On a personal note:

I once denied to Christ that He existed at all, it was a very low point in my life and I had lost all my faith. I said: You never existed and all is just a big lie, life is just a lie…

Some time later I found myself on a bed with a Priest and some Nuns next to me. They said they found me passed out on the floor of the Chapel. All I remember is seeing an incredibly bright light that overpowered all of my vision. No words, no sounds, just a very bright light. I felt as light as a feather and my passion for Christ was renewed and strengthened. My friends thought I had gone mad, I preached Christ to whomever had an ear. I was in High School and yes, Catholic at the time.

So for me, it’s not just the deposit of Faith but an undeniable personal encounter.

Peace.

 

[Matthew_Light]

Some time later I found myself on a bed with a Priest and some Nuns next to me. They said they found me passed out on the floor of the Chapel. All I remember is seeing an incredibly bright light that overpowered all of my vision. No words, no sounds, just a very bright light. I felt as light as a feather and my passion for Christ was renewed and strengthened. My friends thought I had gone mad, I preached Christ to whomever had an ear. I was in High School and yes, Catholic at the time.

So for me, it’s not just the deposit of Faith but an undeniable personal encounter.

Peace.

That’s an amazing and wonderful experience. Thank you for sharing it!

I had an experience with the light that completely confirmed my faith in God too.

 

[Servant19]

Quite simple:

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The witness of the Apostles and their successors in an uninterrupted line.

I’m familiar with that passage. How does the Word differ to God? And if the “Word IS God”, why not just say that God became flesh instead?

I really believe there is a value to everything that is written in the Bible and its important to use our spiritual faculties (intellect being one of them) to discern a rational explanation that can be easily explained to all who may cross our path, so that understanding (another spiritual faculty) can be spread amongst the peoples of the world

So, if you can please explain to me the meaning of this passage in response to the questions above, I would be grateful to hear your perspective

On a personal note:

I once denied to Christ that He existed at all, it was a very low point in my life and I had lost all my faith. I said: You never existed and all is just a big lie, life is just a lie…

Some time later I found myself on a bed with a Priest and some Nuns next to me. They said they found me passed out on the floor of the Chapel. All I remember is seeing an incredibly bright light that overpowered all of my vision. No words, no sounds, just a very bright light. I felt as light as a feather and my passion for Christ was renewed and strengthened. My friends thought I had gone mad, I preached Christ to whomever had an ear. I was in High School and yes, Catholic at the time.

So for me, it’s not just the deposit of Faith but an undeniable personal encounter.

Peace.

THIS is simply beautiful

I honour your faith Isaiah, and I especially honour your zeal for preaching Christ to whomsoever can hear Him. We are definitely on the same path in Christ dear friend.

There is not a neighbour on my street and the 5 surrounding streets who does not know that I am willing to selflessly serve them in any capacity so that they may be advanced in their ability to “see Christ in all things”

.

 

[openmind77]

But you take the word of a Church that “self-appoints” a God-man?

You have not explained why you think Jesus was Divine? Is it purely out of numbers that believe that way?

There is an Islamic tradition that states Muhammad as saying

“There is a relationship where I am I and He is He, yet I am He and He is Me!”
Does that not say that Muhammad claimed Divinity?
1 billion people believe that…does that make them right?

I don’t take the Church’s or anyone’s word, I just said that there is no need for me to prove it to you since it is already accepted by a billion people that Jesus is a Son of God.

All Muslims clearly state that Muhammad is not a God, if you have a quarrel with that belief, then you should go argue with them.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I’m familiar with that passage. How does the Word differ to God? And if the “Word IS God”, why not just say that God became flesh instead?

So, if you can please explain to me the meaning of this passage in response to the questions above, I would be grateful to hear your perspective
.

I really like to keep things simple. The Word became Flesh simply means that Christ is the Word of God.

On a deeper sense, Christ’s unique and singular hypostatic union of the divine and human becomes manifested. He is the Word of the Father creator of all things visible and invisible.

On a more Orthodox understanding, God’s essence is hidden but his energy is manifested. God has communicated with us throughout history, Christ- God in the Flesh is the final bridge that can get us to God’s essence. We can’t do it on our own, but Christ gets us there. That’s why He said; “I Am The Way, The Truth, and The Life”. God’s manifested Word is Christ incarnate. The biggest mystery of all creation!

Thank you and Matthew for the complements.

Peace,

 

[Servant19]

I don’t take the Church’s or anyone’s word, I just said that there is no need for me to prove it to you since it is already accepted by a billion people that Jesus is a Son of God.

All Muslims clearly state that Muhammad is not a God, if you have a quarrel with that belief, then you should go argue with them.

Please brother openmind. I am really not arguing with you. I am simply trying to understand your perspective, which I respect and rever deeply. Your perspective nourishes and enriches my understanding.

I simply cannot understand how you came to the conclusion that:

I of course, personally, believe that Jesus was a special ‘Son of God’ and that none of the other three are divine in the same way as Jesus.

I appreciate how you came to that belief, that’s all brother

 

[openmind77]

Please brother openmind. I am really not arguing with you. I am simply trying to understand your perspective, which I respect and rever deeply. Your perspective nourishes and enriches my understanding.

I simply cannot understand how you came to the conclusion that:

I appreciate how you came to that belief, that’s all brother

You are so sincere and nice. I am sure your only motive is to understand. Thanks very much,

 

[Bahaitruth]

Hi all, I saw this discussion and wanted to tell you what I think. Not only is the claim of Bahaullah competing with Jesus’s claim, but Bahaullah ups Jesus’s claim and Mohammad’s claim in one swoop.

Bahaullah claims to have created the Holy Spirit and claims to have begotten the Spirit of God and the Son of God. This is a greater station than Jesus Christ because it is made within the context of Jesus’s own self-claims. For instance Bahaullah says that all the “manifestations” can claim to be God, but only Baha’u’llah’s claim is distinct and specific while other claims are relative.

Bahaullah likewise claims to have sent Mohammad to earth as His Messenger with the Koran and claims that He spoke to Moses in the Bush and gave him the 10 commandments. Bahaullah furthermore extends this claim to Zoroaster (Magian), having sent him, as well as Others.

Bahaullah claims to be the appearance of Tetragrammaton (YHWH) and the appearance of Father (abba) and appearance of Allah the Qayyum (Self-Subsistent) at the End of Time. In one Tablet, Bahaullah is asked if He is actively announcing the End of Time. Bahaullah answers that no, that the End of Time had already transpired. It was a past event to Him and he was now calling people to himself (to God).

 

[openmind77]

Hi all, I saw this discussion and wanted to tell you what I think. Not only is the claim of Bahaullah competing with Jesus’s claim, but Bahaullah ups Jesus’s claim and Mohammad’s claim in one swoop.

Bahaullah claims to have created the Holy Spirit and claims to have begotten the Spirit of God and the Son of God. This is a greater station than Jesus Christ because it is made within the context of Jesus’s own self-claims. For instance Bahaullah says that all the “manifestations” can claim to be God, but only Baha’u’llah’s claim is distinct and specific while other claims are relative.

Bahaullah likewise claims to have sent Mohammad to earth as His Messenger with the Koran and claims that He spoke to Moses in the Bush and gave him the 10 commandments. Bahaullah furthermore extends this claim to Zoroaster (Magian), having sent him, as well as Others.

Bahaullah claims to be the appearance of Tetragrammaton (YHWH) and the appearance of Father (abba) and appearance of Allah the Qayyum (Self-Subsistent) at the End of Time. In one Tablet, Bahaullah is asked if He is actively announcing the End of Time. Bahaullah answers that no, that the End of Time had already transpired. It was a past event to Him and he was now calling people to himself (to God).

Very interesting post. When Bahaullah claims that he is ‘the appearance of Tetragrammaton (YHWH) and the appearance of Father (abba) and appearance of Allah the Qayyum (Self-Subsistent) at the End of Time’, does this mean these are three different persons? Do Bahais believe that these three Gods are separate and different? Thanks.

 

[arthra]

I’d like to suggest some references when we’re suggesting claims are made… From my reading the following citations are important when considering the Word and the Manifestations…

***This servant will now share with thee a dewdrop out of the fathomless ocean of the truths treasured in these holy words, that haply discerning hearts may comprehend all the allusions and the implications of the utterances of the Manifestations of Holiness, so that the overpowering majesty of the Word of God may not prevent them from attaining unto the ocean of His names and attributes, nor deprive them of recognizing the Lamp of God which is the seat of the revelation of His glorified Essence. *** 29

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 28)

I beseech Thee, by Thine own Self and by Him Whom Thou hast appointed as the Manifestation of Thine own Being and Thy discriminating Word unto all that are in heaven and on earth, to gather together Thy servants beneath the shade of the Tree of Thy gracious providence. Help them, then, to partake of its fruits, to incline their ears to the rustling of its leaves, and to the sweetness of the voice of the Bird that chanteth upon its branches. Thou art, verily, the Help in Peril, the Inaccessible, the Almighty, the Most Bountiful.

(Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 26)

Universal Peace is assured by Bahá’u’lláh as a fundamental accomplishment of the religion of God; that peace shall prevail among nations, governments and peoples, among religions, races and all conditions of mankind. This is one of the special characteristics of the Word of God revealed in this Manifestation.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 247)