Question for Baha'i

[Bahaitruth]

Very interesting post. When Bahaullah claims that he is ‘the appearance of Tetragrammaton (YHWH) and the appearance of Father (abba) and appearance of Allah the Qayyum (Self-Subsistent) at the End of Time’, does this mean these are three different persons? Do Bahais believe that these three Gods are separate and different? Thanks.

Weren’t Moses/Abraham, Jesus, and Muhammad different people in history?

 

[Bahaitruth]

Very simply, what is the Baha’i position when it comes to sin? Do you believe sin exists? Do you believe you need forgiveness from sin? Do you believe you need to be saved from the consequences of sin? If not, why? If so, how is this accomplished?

Thanks.

Steve

1. Sin is whatever distances man from the Supreme Manifestation.
2. Sin exists because our distance from Him is real.
3. Yes forgiveness is necessary. Only God can forgive our sins.
4. Yes it is necessary to be saved from sin.
5. This is accomplished by accepting Bahaullah. If anyone performs all good deeds, and rejects Bahaullah, he is still not saved. But Bahaullah does claim to reserve the right to save even those that reject him.

 

[openmind77]

1. Sin is whatever distances man from the Supreme Manifestation.
2. Sin exists because our distance from Him is real.
3. Yes forgiveness is necessary. Only God can forgive our sins.
4. Yes it is necessary to be saved from sin.
5. This is accomplished by accepting Bahaullah. If anyone performs all good deeds, and rejects Bahaullah, he is still not saved. But Bahaullah does claim to reserve the right to save even those that reject him.

So if a person accepts Jesus and rejects Bahaullah, his chances of being saved are very slim? What about those who accept Bahaullah and reject Jesus, what is there status?

What about those who were born and died before Bahaullah was born, ie between 0 AD and 1817 AD, do they get some kind of special consideration/indulgence?

Of course those born before Jesus are in a real pickle, they can not accept Jesus or Bahaullah - there must be some special amnesty program for them somewhere ,maybe still under consideration…

 

[Bahaitruth]

L oL,

Your comment and question was comedy!

But in seriousness, here’s what I think: if you accept Jesus but reject Bahaullah you’re not saved. But if you accept Bahaullah since he writes about Jesus in positive ways and calls Jesus the Spirit of God, then it would be hard to accept Bahaullah but reject Jesus who He spoke highly of.

As for what happens before Bahaullah physically lived? Well you had the previous Manifeststions who were sent by him.

 

[Matthew_Light]

I think there is a great deal of confusion about what many of these words means. For example, what does it mean to recognize Christ?

I would suggest that Jesus is telling us something about that in the parable of the good Samaritan. As Christ said:

"Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. "

• Matthew 7:21

 

[Vouthon]

I think there is a great deal of confusion about what many of these words means. For example, what does it mean to recognize Christ?

I would suggest that Jesus is telling us something about that in the parable of the good Samaritan. As Christ said:

"Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. "

• Matthew 7:21

Yes, Jesus is suggesting that it is the state of the heart that is of the utmost importance rather than visible or verbal profession of faith in Him. There are wolves in the body of the church and sheep outside of her visible boundaries.

Some are kept from the church through their upbringing in different religions and the strong mental and cultural conditioning this can result in. For these people, while they be not corporeal members of the church, they are still spiritually of her because their hearts are in a position of grace and faithfulness to the dictates of conscience.

The Fathers clarified this quite clearly on a number of occasions:

“…How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!..When we speak of within and without in relation to the Church, it is the position of the heart that we must consider, not that of the body… All who are within in heart are saved in the unity of the ark…”

- Saint Augustine, Church Father (354–430 AD), Baptism 5:28:39

“…He was ours [a Christian] even before he was of our fold. His way of living made him such. For just as many of ours are not with us, whose life makes them other from our body [the Church], so many of those outside [the Church] belong to us, who by their way of life anticipate the faith and need only the name, having the reality…”

***- St. Gregory of Nazianzus, 18.5 (c. 374 AD) ***

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

L oL,

Your comment and question was comedy!

But in seriousness, here’s what I think: if you accept Jesus but reject Bahaullah you’re not saved. But if you accept Bahaullah since he writes about Jesus in positive ways and calls Jesus the Spirit of God, then it would be hard to accept Bahaullah but reject Jesus who He spoke highly of.

As for what happens before Bahaullah physically lived? Well you had the previous Manifeststions who were sent by him.

You are the only sincere Bahai in the world.

You are still wrong however, Jesus is the pinnacle of salvation to which no man can add. There is only one name under heaven and earth which must be invoked for the salvation of all, in prayer, in life and in practice. The bahai do not as far as I’m aware have such prayers for Ali Hussain. Will you pray “Save my soul Ali Hussain”? “Ali Hussain have mercy on me a sinner”? Is Ali Hussain the one all judgement has been given to? All power on heaven and earth has been given to Ali hussain?

 

[tonyfish58]

You are the only sincere Bahai in the world.

You are still wrong however, Jesus is the pinnacle of salvation to which no man can add. There is only one name under heaven and earth which must be invoked for the salvation of all, in prayer, in life and in practice. The bahai do not as far as I’m aware have such prayers for Ali Hussain. Will you pray “Save my soul Ali Hussain”? “Ali Hussain have mercy on me a sinner”? Is Ali Hussain the one all judgement has been given to? All power on heaven and earth has been given to Ali hussain?

Prayers are offered to God through the Manifestation. Thus a Christian prays to God through Christ. All power is Given by God to the Manifestations.

Thus a Baha’i Prays to God through Baha’u’llah, but we can also Pray through the Bab and Abdul’Baha.

Prayer - Conversation with God

“Prayer,” says Abdu'l-Bahá, "is conversation with God." In order that God may make known His mind and will to human beings, He must speak to us in a language which we can understand, and this He does through the guidance of the Manifestations. While the Manifestations of God are alive They speak with women and men face to face and convey to them the Message of God, and after Their death Their message continues to reach people's minds through their recorded sayings and writings. But this is not the only way in which God can commune with and inspire those whose hearts are seeking after truth, wherever they are, and whatever their native race or tongue. By this language the Manifestation continues to hold converse with the faithful after His departure from the material world. Abdu’l-Bahá speaks much of this spiritual language. He says, for instance:

We should speak in the language of heaven -- in the language of the spirit -- for there is a language of the spirit and heart. It is as different from our language as our own language is different from that of the animals, who express themselves only by cries and sounds. It is the language of the spirit which speaks to God. When, in prayer, we are freed from all outward things and turn to God, then it is as if in our hearts we hear the voice of God. Without words we speak, we communicate, we converse with God and hear the answer. ... All of us, when we attain to a truly spiritual condition, can hear the Voice of God.

Link to full talk - info.bahai.org/article-1-4-7-1.html

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Prayers are offered to God through the Manifestation. Thus a Christian prays to God through Christ. All power is Given by God to the Manifestations.

Thus a Baha’i Prays to God through Baha’u’llah, but we can also Pray through the Bab and Abdul’Baha.

Prayer - Conversation with God

“Prayer,” says Abdu'l-Bahá, "is conversation with God." In order that God may make known His mind and will to human beings, He must speak to us in a language which we can understand, and this He does through the guidance of the Manifestations. While the Manifestations of God are alive They speak with women and men face to face and convey to them the Message of God, and after Their death Their message continues to reach people's minds through their recorded sayings and writings. But this is not the only way in which God can commune with and inspire those whose hearts are seeking after truth, wherever they are, and whatever their native race or tongue. By this language the Manifestation continues to hold converse with the faithful after His departure from the material world. Abdu’l-Bahá speaks much of this spiritual language. He says, for instance:

We should speak in the language of heaven -- in the language of the spirit -- for there is a language of the spirit and heart. It is as different from our language as our own language is different from that of the animals, who express themselves only by cries and sounds. It is the language of the spirit which speaks to God. When, in prayer, we are freed from all outward things and turn to God, then it is as if in our hearts we hear the voice of God. Without words we speak, we communicate, we converse with God and hear the answer. ... All of us, when we attain to a truly spiritual condition, can hear the Voice of God.

Link to full talk - info.bahai.org/article-1-4-7-1.html

God Bless and Regards Tony

Again, do you pray constantly like the monks or orthodox Christians in general “ali Hussein, have mercy on me a sinner?”

Do you invoke his name when you gather? Whenever you think of God, do you think of him alongside God? See we don’t believe it is only through the message of said “manifestation” that his presence is felt, it is through the spirit of Christ, through the holy spirit whom he sent that we feel Christ, it is through divine worship we feel Christ. As it seems to me, there really isn’t this concept in bahai.

 

[Servant19]

Again, do you pray constantly like the monks or orthodox Christians in general “ali Hussein, have mercy on me a sinner?”

Do you invoke his name when you gather? Whenever you think of God, do you think of him alongside God? See we don’t believe it is only through the message of said “manifestation” that his presence is felt, it is through the spirit of Christ, through the holy spirit whom he sent that we feel Christ, it is through divine worship we feel Christ. As it seems to me, there really isn’t this concept in bahai.

If you are constantly praying, how are you a sinner?

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

If you are constantly praying, how are you a sinner?

.

How am I not a sinner even when I pray? I know I will do evil today and tomorrow. To think I am not a sinner while praying is spiritual pride and it is a rejection of what the apostle says when he says he is the worst of sinners. Each individual needs to understand themselves and their sin and sincerely come to the conclusion they are the worst of all sinners. But you are once again distracting from my point.

 

[Servant19]

How am I not a sinner even when I pray? I know I will do evil today and tomorrow. To think I am not a sinner while praying is spiritual pride and it is a rejection of what the apostle says when he says he is the worst of sinners. Each individual needs to understand themselves and their sin and sincerely come to the conclusion they are the worst of all sinners. But you are once again distracting from my point.

That was not my question dear friend.

You asked if we “constantly pray like the monks”

I asked “if you are constantly praying for all your life, how can you be a sinner”
How can you do evil today and tomorrow if you are praying ALL DAY today and tomorrow?

Baha’is dont “constantly” pray. We are encouraged to make “each day like a beautiful prayer”

Our actions are how we worship our Lord, and this includes periods of devotion and remembrance in His name…

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

That was not my question dear friend.

You asked if we “constantly pray like the monks”

I asked “if you are constantly praying for all your life, how can you be a sinner”
How can you do evil today and tomorrow if you are praying ALL DAY today and tomorrow?

Baha’is dont “constantly” pray. We are encouraged to make “each day like a beautiful prayer”

Our actions are how we worship our Lord, and this includes periods of devotion and remembrance in His name…

.

You have missed the point of my post entirely.

 

[Servant19]

You have missed the point of my post entirely.

I appreciate that

We pray a LOT to Baha’u’llah, begging Him to forgive our sins, begging Him to forgive the sins of our loved ones in this world and the next and begging Him to assist us in our services we wish to render to Him.

I pray this every single day…

.

 

[tonyfish58]

Again, do you pray constantly like the monks or orthodox Christians in general “ali Hussein, have mercy on me a sinner?”

Do you invoke his name when you gather? Whenever you think of God, do you think of him alongside God? See we don’t believe it is only through the message of said “manifestation” that his presence is felt, it is through the spirit of Christ, through the holy spirit whom he sent that we feel Christ, it is through divine worship we feel Christ. As it seems to me, there really isn’t this concept in bahai.

Examples will suffice There are thousands more!

Magnified, O Lord my God, be Thy Name, whereby the trees of the garden of Thy Revelation have been clad with verdure, and been made to yield the fruits of holiness during this Springtime when the sweet savors of Thy favors and blessings have been wafted over all things, and caused them to bring forth whatsoever had been preordained for them in the Kingdom of Thine irrevocable decree and the Heaven of Thine immutable purpose. I beseech Thee by this very Name not to suffer me to be far from the court of Thy holiness, nor debarred from the exalted sanctuary of Thy unity and oneness.

Ignite, then, O my God, within my breast the fire of Thy love, that its flame may burn up all else except my remembrance of Thee, that every trace of corrupt desire may be entirely mortified within me, and that naught may remain except the glorification of Thy transcendent and all-glorious Being. This is my highest aspiration, mine ardent desire, O Thou Who rulest all things, and in Whose hand is the kingdom of the entire creation. Thou, verily, doest what Thou choosest. No God is there beside Thee, the Almighty, the All-Glorious, the Ever-Forgiving. Bahá’u’lláh

My God, my Adored One, my King, my Desire! What tongue can voice my thanks to Thee? I was heedless, Thou didst awaken me. I had turned back from Thee, Thou didst graciously aid me to turn towards Thee. I was as one dead, Thou didst quicken me with the water of life. I was withered, Thou didst revive me with the heavenly stream of Thine utterance which hath flowed forth from the Pen of the All-Merciful.

O Divine Providence! All existence is begotten by Thy bounty; deprive it not of the waters of Thy generosity, neither do Thou withhold it from the ocean of Thy mercy. I beseech Thee to aid and assist me at all times and under all conditions, and seek from the heaven of Thy grace Thine ancient favor. Thou art, in truth, the Lord of bounty, and the Sovereign of the kingdom of eternity. Bahá’u’lláh

Glorified art Thou, O Lord my God! I beseech Thee by Thy Chosen Ones, and by the Bearers of Thy Trust, and by Him Whom Thou hast ordained to be the Seal of Thy Prophets and of Thy Messengers, to let Thy remembrance be my companion, and Thy love my aim, and Thy face my goal, and Thy name my lamp, and Thy wish my desire, and Thy pleasure my delight.

I am a sinner, O my Lord, and Thou art the Ever-Forgiving. As soon as I recognized Thee, I hastened to attain the exalted court of Thy loving-kindness. Forgive me, O my Lord, my sins which have hindered me from walking in the ways of Thy good pleasure, and from attaining the shores of the ocean of Thy oneness.

There is no one, O my Lord, who can deal bountifully with me to whom I can turn my face, and none who can have compassion on me that I may crave his mercy. Cast me not out, I implore Thee, of the presence of Thy grace, neither do Thou withhold from me the outpourings of Thy generosity and bounty. Ordain for me, O my Lord, what Thou hast ordained for them that love Thee, and write down for me what Thou hast written down for Thy chosen ones. My gaze hath, at all times, been fixed on the horizon of Thy gracious providence, and mine eyes bent upon the court of Thy tender mercies. Do with me as beseemeth Thee. No God is there but Thee, the God of power, the God of glory, Whose help is implored by all men. Bahá’u’lláh

Link to more Wonderful Prayers - bahaiprayers.org/indexbahaullah.htm

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[openmind77]

I appreciate that

We pray a LOT to Baha’u’llah, begging Him to forgive our sins, begging Him to forgive the sins of our loved ones in this world and the next and begging Him to assist us in our services we wish to render to Him.

I pray this every single day…

.

A previous post said that Bahaullah claimed to be Allah. See below:

…Bahaullah claims to be the appearance of Tetragrammaton (YHWH) and the appearance of Father (abba) and appearance of Allah the Qayyum (Self-Subsistent) at the End of Time.,.

Is this claim accepted by all Bahais? Does it not contradict Muslim beliefs - that Allah can not take any form? In Bahai doctrine is Allah the same as the Christian Father? (I thought Allah was all three persons of the Trinity combined)

 

[Bahaitruth]

No not all Baha’is agree. But unlike other religions, theological difference does not lead to new Bahai sects. All the tiny Bahai splinter groups are “power plays” not theological disputes.

This was designed by Bahaullah intentionally. Even during Baha’u’llah’s own lifetime, some Baha’is saw Bahaullah as a manifestation/prophet THROUGH whom God spoke, others saw Baha as God by saying God spoke THROUGH nothing, God was actually speaking directly.

Bahaullah ruled that both positions are correct. Officially Bahais take the more digestible position in marketing material that God spoke through Bahaullah and indirectly hinting that God spoke ThROUGH HimSelf!

 

[Bahaitruth]

No this does not contradict Muslim view because the Quran tells them that the meeting with Allah is a certainty. Bahaullah claimed to be this Great Announcement mentioned in Quran. Muslims believe this meeting with God/Allah takes place AFTER death and AFTER End of Time/ Great Universal Resurrection. Baha’is believe it happened on Earth.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Examples will suffice There are thousands more!

Magnified, O Lord my God, be Thy Name, whereby the trees of the garden of Thy Revelation have been clad with verdure, and been made to yield the fruits of holiness during this Springtime when the sweet savors of Thy favors and blessings have been wafted over all things, and caused them to bring forth whatsoever had been preordained for them in the Kingdom of Thine irrevocable decree and the Heaven of Thine immutable purpose. I beseech Thee by this very Name not to suffer me to be far from the court of Thy holiness, nor debarred from the exalted sanctuary of Thy unity and oneness.

Ignite, then, O my God, within my breast the fire of Thy love, that its flame may burn up all else except my remembrance of Thee, that every trace of corrupt desire may be entirely mortified within me, and that naught may remain except the glorification of Thy transcendent and all-glorious Being. This is my highest aspiration, mine ardent desire, O Thou Who rulest all things, and in Whose hand is the kingdom of the entire creation. Thou, verily, doest what Thou choosest. No God is there beside Thee, the Almighty, the All-Glorious, the Ever-Forgiving. Bahá’u’lláh

My God, my Adored One, my King, my Desire! What tongue can voice my thanks to Thee? I was heedless, Thou didst awaken me. I had turned back from Thee, Thou didst graciously aid me to turn towards Thee. I was as one dead, Thou didst quicken me with the water of life. I was withered, Thou didst revive me with the heavenly stream of Thine utterance which hath flowed forth from the Pen of the All-Merciful.

O Divine Providence! All existence is begotten by Thy bounty; deprive it not of the waters of Thy generosity, neither do Thou withhold it from the ocean of Thy mercy. I beseech Thee to aid and assist me at all times and under all conditions, and seek from the heaven of Thy grace Thine ancient favor. Thou art, in truth, the Lord of bounty, and the Sovereign of the kingdom of eternity. Bahá’u’lláh

Glorified art Thou, O Lord my God! I beseech Thee by Thy Chosen Ones, and by the Bearers of Thy Trust, and by Him Whom Thou hast ordained to be the Seal of Thy Prophets and of Thy Messengers, to let Thy remembrance be my companion, and Thy love my aim, and Thy face my goal, and Thy name my lamp, and Thy wish my desire, and Thy pleasure my delight.

I am a sinner, O my Lord, and Thou art the Ever-Forgiving. As soon as I recognized Thee, I hastened to attain the exalted court of Thy loving-kindness. Forgive me, O my Lord, my sins which have hindered me from walking in the ways of Thy good pleasure, and from attaining the shores of the ocean of Thy oneness.

There is no one, O my Lord, who can deal bountifully with me to whom I can turn my face, and none who can have compassion on me that I may crave his mercy. Cast me not out, I implore Thee, of the presence of Thy grace, neither do Thou withhold from me the outpourings of Thy generosity and bounty. Ordain for me, O my Lord, what Thou hast ordained for them that love Thee, and write down for me what Thou hast written down for Thy chosen ones. My gaze hath, at all times, been fixed on the horizon of Thy gracious providence, and mine eyes bent upon the court of Thy tender mercies. Do with me as beseemeth Thee. No God is there but Thee, the God of power, the God of glory, Whose help is implored by all men. Bahá’u’lláh

Link to more Wonderful Prayers - bahaiprayers.org/indexbahaullah.htm

God Bless and Regards Tony

All of these are directed to Ali Hussain?

 

[Bahaitruth]

All of these are directed to Ali Hussain?

Yes! I pray to BAHA Husayn-Ali with these words, all of them!