Question for bible Christians

[Odell]

Good question. I’ve found some answers to this in the little book “Animals, Ethics & Christianity: Do Nature and Christianity Share the Same God?” by Matthew Priebe. I can send a copy to anyone if they send $1.00 to Catholic Concern for Animals, P.O. Box 266, Wayne, NJ 07474 with your address. I would be happy to send it to you. It’s easy to read and very reasonable/logical and Scriptural. According to Priebe, concerning the necessity to abstain from blood preceded the Levitical law by approximately 1000 years. Acts 1:28:29 and St. Paul’s reaffirmation in Acts 21:25 shows that “…the divine mandate never to eat blood was continued as a vital aspect of the Christian life. It was only during the Middle Ages that apostate Christianity ignored this as they ignored so many other of the Bible’s teachings.”
He goes on to explain why.
Jan

I hope they are not saying the church went apostate

My main concern is why do people still do this when the bible tells us not to. This is for bible only Christians I know why Catholics don’t adhere to this and its not because she went apostate

 

[Godscre]

Two great online videos about animals is “A Sacred Duty” which has won an award. It is from Jewish perspective about the environment and animals. It is about 1 hour long.
The other “Christian Concern For All God’s Creatures” is about 1/2 hour long, produced by me. They both have some reality footage of God’s creatures.
Jan Fredericks

 

[guanophore]

I hope they are not saying the church went apostate

My main concern is why do people still do this when the bible tells us not to. This is for bible only Christians I know why Catholics don’t adhere to this and its not because she went apostate

I think you should try posting this over in then non-Catholic forum. It is not likely to get a lot of discussion in Apologetics.

 

[VociMike]

In the Old Testament there is specific reference to meat with the blood in it. The prohibition in Acts would not exclude meat with blood in it as it speaks only of eating blood. ie blood as a separate food.

I don’t think you can draw that conclusion. All it says is “refrain…from blood”. The Jews certainly understood refraining from blood to include the blood in meat.

Even if you do not accept the above, reference must be had to context and the rest of the Bible. In Galatians 2 Paul mentions nothing of any dietary prohibitions as a result of the Jerusalem meeting so apparently they no longer applied. Acts is dealing with relations between Jewish converts and Gentile converts. Eating blood would offend the Jewish converts. Throughout his epistles Paul makes it clear that while nothing is unclean that if it gives offence to another we should not do it. As Paul says all is clean and that we are not to allow anyone to judge us as to food, it is apparent that the prohibition of blood was not permanent but a temporary accomodation. This is made particularly clear as in Mark 7:19 where we are told Jesus declared all foods clean.

I think the bigger question is, for those Protestants who do not avoid blood (in meat), would they agree that the passage on blood in Acts (not to mention those in the OT) do not somehow refute the doctrine of the Real Presence?

I think what annoys Catholics is when Protestants claim at the same time that no food is forbidden, and that the Real Presence is false because blood is forbidden.

 

[Godscre]

God’s creatures should be part of our apologetics. St. Paul says that “if food causes my brother to sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I may not cause my brother to sin.” 1 Cor. 8:13 In the context he is referring to idolatry (which I believe greed for meat as in Nu 11 is a form of idolatry). We can not serve both God and mammon (wealth and property). I’m not sure of the reasoning behind the Church’s silence other than fear. Pope Benedict spoke out against foie gras because of the cruelty done to ducks, but there are also billions of God’s creatures living in crates and cages for our appetites at this moment. Our everyday choices and desires are moral and ethical choices which reflect and affect our walk with God. The Holy Spirit (who Jesus and John said is our teacher) is moving people to live compassionately as Jesus did as His Father and our Father is compassionate to all creatures (Psalm 145:9).
Catholic Concern for Animals-USA

 

[Teflon93]

Perhaps people elevating their pet political causes to the level of dogma isn’t such a good thing.

God does not restrict us to the vegan lifestyle. Indeed, he instructed the Jews to eat lamb on the very Passover night he saved them.

Didn’t Christ once say it’s not what goes in our mouths which matters to God, but what comes out of them?

 

[brierpatch1974]

“For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

[/indent]Let me explain what is being said in that verse: James prohibits the eating of things offered to idols, and things strangled as a concession of the Gentile Christians to the Jewish Christians so that the Gentile Christians are not causing the Jewish Christians to stumble (see my statement concerning that from Rom 14 above).

Once again, Odell, “nothing is unclean in itself” (Rom 14); the restrictions James placed upon the Gentiles in Acts 15 were a concession to the sensibilities of the Jewish Christians.

I am no expert but to me this is saying don’t eat somthing at a Jews house that would offend him. Just like I don’t want people smoking in my house. Its basically showing how you should respect cultures differant from your own.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Perhaps people elevating their pet political causes to the level of dogma isn’t such a good thing.

God does not restrict us to the vegan lifestyle. Indeed, he instructed the Jews to eat lamb on the very Passover night he saved them.

Didn’t Christ once say it’s not what goes in our mouths which matters to God, but what comes out of them?

Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man that entering into him can defile him. But the things which come from a man, those are they that defile a man.
Mar 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
Mar 7:17 And when he was come into the house from the multitude, his disciples asked him the parable.
Mar 7:18 And he saith to them: So are you also without knowledge? Understand you not that every thing from without entering into a man cannot defile him:
Mar 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart but goeth into his belly and goeth out into the privy, purging all meats?
Mar 7:20 But he said that the things which come out from a man, they defile a man.
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.

You are correct.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[Godscre]

God looks at our hearts. God did create us to live in harmony with all of creation as said in Genesis 1:29-30 where all ate a plant-based diet. Only after sin entered the world and mankind wanted meat did God give us laws in Leviticus. ‘Dominion’ over the animals in it’s context and elsewhere in the Bible, means to be good stewards of whatever we are ‘in charge of’.
Jesus took the place of the Passover Lamb – He is the Passover Lamb.
Jesus taught about mercy and kindness. The fruit of the Spirit is peace, patience gentleness, goodness, kindness, long-suffering, etc. as said in Galatians 5.
As made in God’s image, we should be compassionate to all of His creatures. The Bible says not to argue about doctrine. I’ve defended the Catholic faith as a convert. It was a choice I made after graduating from the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary. I love the Church and have met lots of Catholics who want to walk closely with Jesus. As you know, knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. God loves all of us and He wants us to live for Him and give Him glory in everything we do and say.
In the love of the Lord,
Jan
Catholic Concern for Animals-USA

 

[Teflon93]

Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man that entering into him can defile him. But the things which come from a man, those are they that defile a man.
Mar 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
Mar 7:17 And when he was come into the house from the multitude, his disciples asked him the parable.
Mar 7:18 And he saith to them: So are you also without knowledge? Understand you not that every thing from without entering into a man cannot defile him:
Mar 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart but goeth into his belly and goeth out into the privy, purging all meats?
Mar 7:20 But he said that the things which come out from a man, they defile a man.
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.

You are correct.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

Thank you—I knew somebody with a superior memory and recall of Scripture than mine would produce the passage in question.

The question now is whether we listen to and obey Christ, or attempt to resurrect those aspects of the Law which match our own lifestyles or political preferences.

We should not conflate what God requires with what we wish He required.

 

[Teflon93]

God looks at our hearts. God did create us to live in harmony with all of creation as said in Genesis 1:29-30 where all ate a plant-based diet. Only after sin entered the world and mankind wanted meat did God give us laws in Leviticus. ‘Dominion’ over the animals in it’s context and elsewhere in the Bible, means to be good stewards of whatever we are ‘in charge of’.
Jesus took the place of the Passover Lamb – He is the Passover Lamb.
Jesus taught about mercy and kindness. The fruit of the Spirit is peace, patience gentleness, goodness, kindness, long-suffering, etc. as said in Galatians 5.
As made in God’s image, we should be compassionate to all of His creatures. The Bible says not to argue about doctrine. I’ve defended the Catholic faith as a convert. It was a choice I made after graduating from the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary. I love the Church and have met lots of Catholics who want to walk closely with Jesus. As you know, knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. God loves all of us and He wants us to live for Him and give Him glory in everything we do and say.
In the love of the Lord,
Jan
Catholic Concern for Animals-USA

There is nothing wrong with concern for animals; there is everything wrong with ignoring what Christ said on the matter of dietary laws.

Indeed, a purely vegetarian diet lacks vitamin B12 and results in anemia and ultimately demise if not supplemented. B12 is obtained from animals. Perhaps this was not so in the Garden, but it is so now.

Moreover, hunger in the world is largely a function of caloric density. Given the choice between sufficient calories to live and not eating animals, which do you think our poor brothers and sisters should choose?

We must value our brothers and sisters over animals, I think.

There is no need to be cruel to animals, of course, but there is likewise no need to adopt a vegan lifestyle, although anyone is free to do so (but get those vitamin supplements!)

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Thank you—I knew somebody with a superior memory and recall of Scripture than mine would produce the passage in question.

The question now is whether we listen to and obey Christ, or attempt to resurrect those aspects of the Law which match our own lifestyles or political preferences.

We should not conflate what God requires with what we wish He required.

Here’s the Catholic Commentary on Mark 7:18 - 19.

18-19. Food, like other externals, cannot of itself defile a man morally. It does not enter into or contaminate the seat of man’s moral life. Making (declaring) all foods clean. This is a parenthesis inserted by Mark to explain the significance of Christ’s words. His teaching means that the distinction between clean and unclean foods is abrogated. This was a radical change for persons accustomed to the Mosaic Law and Pharisaic tradition. It was only gradually that the full implications of Christ’s teaching were grasped; cf.Act_10:9-16, Act_10:28; Act_11:1-10.20-23. The heart, as the seat of moral life, is the source whence proceed the evil thoughts and affections which cause moral defilement. ‘From here the new law according to the spirit takes its beginning’ (Catena in Marc.).

Below are the verses referenced by the quote above.

Act 10:9 And on the next day, whilst they were going on their journey and drawing nigh to the city, Peter went up to the higher parts of the house to pray, about the sixth hour.
Act 10:10 And being hungry, he was desirous to taste somewhat. And as they were preparing, there came upon him an ecstasy of mind.
Act 10:11 And he saw the heaven opened and a certain vessel descending, as it were a great linen sheet let down by the four corners from heaven to the earth:
Act 10:12 Wherein were all manner of four-footed beasts and creeping things of the earth and fowls of the air.
Act 10:13 **And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter. Kill and eat. **
Act 10:14 But Peter said: Far be it from me. For I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean.
Act 10:15 And the voice spoke to him again the second time: That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common.
Act 10:16 And this was done thrice. And presently the vessel was taken up into heaven.

Act 10:28 And he said to them: you know how abominable it is for a man that is a Jew to keep company or to come unto one of another nation: but God hath shewed to me, to call no man common or unclean.

Act 11:1 And the apostles and brethren, who were in Judea, heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God.
Act 11:2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
Act 11:3 Saying: Why didst thou go in to men uncircumcised and didst eat with them?
Act 11:4 But Peter began and declared to them the matter in order, saying:
Act 11:5 I was in the city of Joppe praying: and I saw in an ecstasy of mind a vision, a certain vessel descending, as it were a great sheet let down from heaven by four corners. And it came even unto me.
Act 11:6 Into which looking, I considered and saw fourfooted creatures of the earth and beasts and creeping things and fowls of the air.
Act 11:7 **And I heard also a voice saying to me: Arise, Peter. Kill and eat. **
Act 11:8 And I said: Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath ever entered into my mouth.
Act 11:9 And the voice answered again from heaven: What God hath made clean, do not thou call common.
Act 11:10 And this was done three times. And all were taken up again into heaven.

As for the reference in Genesis, I offer the following verse also from Genesis.

Gen 3:21 And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife garments of skins, and clothed them.

Can you explain where the skins came from? To me, this gives another meaning, or endorsement, to the use of the word, dominion.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[Godscre]

Yes B12 is not in our veggies as they once were therefore, 3 mcg/day through fortified foods, or at least 10 mcg/day through a supplement is sufficient.
By being good stewards of God’s creatures we are helping the poor and hungry. It does not need to be a choice of feeding the poor OR caring for animals. The animal agri-business pollutes (including tomatoes) more than all of the transportation put together and Fr. John Dear, S.J. a peace activist and one who cares deeply for the poor and hungry says:
“While people suffer and die of starvation in Central and South America, these regions ship their grain to the U.S. to feed our cows, pigs, and chickens so that we can satify our desire for animal flesh, milk, and eggs.” p. 3 “Christianity and Vegetarianism: Pursuing the Nonviolence of Jesus”