Question for Catholic/Orthodox Converts

[MomentsNotice]

The best test of the truth I have found is the Lords saying, “Ye shall know them by their fruits.” The fruits of the Orthodox ascetical-mystical life, which every Orthodox Christian is called to participate in, are in their maturity (the Orthodox saints) the fruits of the Holy Spirit as exhibited in the early Apostolic Christians.

This is good advice! It makes me think of the late Father Seraphim Rose and his critique of post-schism Catholic spirituality - he described it as “prelest,” or spiritual delusion - a kind of hysterical romanticism and vision-induced trance.

I can get behind this critique, but at the same time I have trouble relating to many of the great Orthodox saints. It seems like the Orthodox saints mostly tend to be great ascetics and monks, but you don’t see too many St. Maximillian Kolbe’s in the Orthodox canon of saints. This is totally subjective (and I’m sure grossly uninformed), but with Orthodoxy I think of hermits with long beards fasting and praying; and, with Catholicism I think of exemplars of tremendous supernatural love like St. Maximillian Kolbe or St. John of the Cross. Totally silly and unfounded, I know, forgive me!

Have you investigated the Coptic Catholic Church?

I wish I lived near one, but alas!

My final plug for a trial of Orthodoxy: come and see! Orthodoxy is inherently experiential, you have to enter into her life to know it.

This, too, is great advice! I have, indeed, spent extended periods of time as a catechumen in both a Greek Orthodox parish and a Russian Orthodox parish. It was actually my experience with the Russian Orthodox Church that started to swing me back towards Catholicism again, but that’s a long story for another day…

Also, I did read your personal testimony, and I found it to be an absolute delight! I will try my best to glean insight therein - thank you for sharing with a stranger, my friend!

 

[BartholomewB]

But again, for me it’s difficult to place too much emphasis on aesthetics.

I suffer from the same entanglement.

That’s a temptation I can resist without any great difficulty. If aesthetics were the primary consideration when selecting a church to convert to, I would be a Lutheran, because they have Bach. No contest. But I have never attended Mass in a Lutheran church, and I don’t suppose I ever will.

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

I can get behind this critique, but at the same time I have trouble relating to many of the great Orthodox saints.

I do too. Especially since the most of the Orthodox saints come from totally foreign cultures, and many of the saints are formed via the monastic life, I have found myself also struggling to relate. Actually, truth be told I have fallen in love with many post-schism Catholic saints who show such wonderful loving humanity, like St. Theresa of Liseux, St. Aloysius Gonzaga, St. Gabriel of Our Lady of Sorrows, and St. Pio of Pietrelcina.

The closest I have found in Orthodoxy are the Holy Royal Martyrs, St. Alexander Schmorell, Mother Gabriella the Ascetic of Love, and St. Porphyrios of Kapsokalyvia.

Also, I did read your personal testimony, and I found it to be an absolute delight! I will try my best to glean insight therein - thank you for sharing with a stranger, my friend!

Glory to God!

actually my experience with the Russian Orthodox Church that started to swing me back towards Catholicism again, but that’s a long story for another day…

Someday I would love to hear that story, if you feel inclined to share.

 

[AlNg]

If two principles, two sources, exist in the Divinity, then the unity of the Divinity would be destroyed…

So if the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and from the Son, the unity of God is destroyed? Would that also destroy the Divine Simplicity?

 

[ReaderT]

That appears to be what Photios was saying, but out of everything in that block of text, this sentence was the one I understood least.

 

[MomentsNotice]

Someday I would love to hear that story, if you feel inclined to share.

Sure, I’ll indulge ye! I’ll try to keep it to the essentials, but due to size limitations on this forum, this will be chopped up into parts, forgive me…

(Part 1)

Basically, in 2018 my circumstances in life brought me to live and work in an isolated, exotic, and developing part of the world. In this particular country, Christianity represents but a small religious minority, and as such there are few churches there, much less Orthodox churches.

By the time I ended up in this foreign country, I had already been investigating Apostolic Christianity for quite some time, and I was already well into the Catholic/Orthodox debate. Shortly after I landed abroad, the scandals broke out involving Cardinal Theodore McCarrick and the letters of Archbishop Vigano, and this was something like a “last straw” moment for me. I had already been leaning heavily towards Orthodoxy for a while, and the eruption of scandal in the Catholic Church all but cemented my decision in favor of the Orthodox Church.

By the grace of God, I was able to find one lone Russian Orthodox Church, and I introduced myself as a catechumen there and began attending liturgy weekly. I explained to the priest that I had already spent plenty of time in Patristics, and so what I really needed to strengthen was my experience of the Orthodox liturgical life i.e. Divine Liturgy, vigils, akathists, etc. I had lots of patristic theology swimming around in my head, but only a bit of practical experience in living the Orthodox life via the Greek Orthodox Church in the United States. So, it was decided that I’d be baptized and chrismated at the Feast of the Nativity, which was roughly 3 months or so away.

And thus, the days went on, and I was even eventually invited to do some readings during Saturday night vigils. To be clear, I met some incredible people at this church, and I am beyond grateful to have been received so warmly and openly – especially considering that 99% of the parishioners were Russian expats who spoke varying degrees of English.

But, as time passed, I just had this nagging feeling about Catholicism that I couldn’t shake. I’d fluctuate back and forth between strong faith in the truth of Orthodoxy and strong faith in the truth of Roman Catholicism, and this state of affairs carried on for quite some time; meanwhile, the date of my chrismation was drawing ever closer…

 

[MomentsNotice]

(Part 2)

It was around December 2018 when I decided to send an email to a Catholic priest with whom I had previously become acquainted back in the States – just to explain my situation and hopefully get some guidance. Several days passed after that, and I began to think that perhaps he was just too busy to respond.

Now, I did have one other option to try. About a week before I left the States, on a whim, I had stopped into a Catholic gift store and purchased a set of rosary beads. I had never said the rosary, nor had I ever owned rosary beads, but I thought that it might provide some consolation during the flight and in my travels.

From the time I purchased those beads, however, I never actually got around to PRAYING the rosary. I would pull the beads out and thumb through them, but whenever the thought occurred to me to actually pray a rosary, I always “chickened out” – this was the pattern for months.

And so, after not having received an email reply from the Catholic priest, and after coming to my wits’ end a bit, on a Saturday night right before going to bed, I finally pulled the beads out and prayed my first rosary. Specifically, I prayed to the Theotokos to beseech her Son for the grace of illumination regarding my search for the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Afterwards, I went straight to bed.

The following morning was Sunday, and I headed out bright and early to attend the Divine Liturgy. During the liturgy, I noticed two unfamiliar men standing next to me, and I assumed they were Russians from out of town on business or something like that. But, they asked if they could follow along in my liturgy book, and when it came time for Holy Communion, neither of them presented themselves to receive the Eucharist.

Immediately after the liturgy, I got to talking with the two of them. They explained that they were Coptic missionaries from Egypt scouting out the situation in this part of the world. We immediately connected over patristics, and we spoke about the state of the Orthodox Church. It was through this introductory dialogue that I came to learn two facts: Jerusalem and Antioch had severed communion over a disagreement in Qatar, and – more shockingly – Moscow had officially severed communion with the Ecumenical Patriarch. This was all recent news, and this was the first time I was hearing it for myself. It hit me really hard in that moment, and I knew that I would need to engage in some seriously deep reflection as soon as I had a free moment alone.

Now, it was the norm for the entire parish to share lunch together in the church basement after Sunday liturgies, and so the two Coptic missionaries joined us for a traditional Russian brunch. As we ate, we continued our conversation, and I thought to myself, “it’s only a matter of time before the Council of Chalcedon and the status of the Coptic Church becomes a topic of heated discussion at this table.”

 

[MomentsNotice]

(Part 3)

And, lo and behold, my instincts were spot on. The priest of the church began talking with the two Copts, and the conversation very quickly became heated. The dreaded “M word” got dropped (monophysite), and despite the Copts’ protests to the contrary, the parish priest basically accused them of Eutychianism. They both fiercely denied the accusation, and they began to make a defense for why the Oriental Orthodox were not cut off from the Body of Christ because the disagreement between the Chalcedonians and the non-Chalcedonians was merely political, not theological. To drive his point home, one of the Copts drew attention to the Moscow/Constantinople schism, asking the following rhetorical question (paraphrasing here), “oh, so then is the One True Church and Bride of Christ only among the Moscow Patriarchate and those in communion with it?!”

Mind you, this was quite clearly a rhetorical question intended to reduce the Russian priest’s contention to the point of obvious absurdity. But, to my utter shock and amazement, the priest – without a moment’s hesitation and without even the minutest trace of jocularity or embarrassment – responded with a firm and resounding, “yes, of course.” This was stated as if the issue was a self-evident matter of fact.

I was absolutely stupefied by his response. And yet, I knew that the logic of his position was admirably consistent – it was necessitated by his faithfulness to the four marks of the Church.

And, in that moment, it hit me like a Mac truck: I knew that I couldn’t go through with the chrismation – not without settling these lingering affinities towards Roman Catholicism and/or putting my mind at ease about Orthodox ecclesiology. Something wasn’t quite right; something was missing; the “story” wasn’t yet quite complete, and my soul was far from being at peace.

Eventually, the dialogue between the priest and the Copts fizzled out, and the parishioners began to disband and depart for their homes. I stepped outside to call a cab home via a ride-sharing app, and when I pulled my phone out, I saw an email notification. I checked to see what it was, and a smile immediately spread across my face: it was a reply from the Catholic priest back home! The details of his response aren’t essential to the story, but it suffices to say that his words were quite edifying – exactly what I needed to hear at that time.

After our first introduction, I continued to spend time with the two Coptic missionaries. We formed a strong friendship before they returned home, and roughly a year later, I found myself aboard a plane heading for Cairo. They showed me hospitality while I was there and took me to several monasteries – most notably the Monastery of St. Anthony the Great! I consider them to be true brothers of mine in Christ…

 

[MomentsNotice]

(Part 4 - Final)

It was also around the time I first met the Coptic missionaries that my job proved to be rather unreliable, and I was forced to seek work elsewhere. I was offered a stellar gig in a neighboring country, and while this nation was slightly more developed, there were ZERO Orthodox churches anywhere in the entire country. There is, however, a sizeable Catholic minority there, and it just so happened that I was placed in the one city with the single highest concentration of Catholics in the entire country.

There are some other details to this story, including a providential encounter at a Catholic church before leaving for my new job, but for the sake of brevity, I’ll end the narrative here. However, there are a few things that stand out strikingly in all of this. I prayed the rosary for the first time in my life, praying specifically for intercessions regarding my struggles in finding Christ’s Church. This happened on a Saturday night. The very next morning, the following took place:

1. The two Coptic missionaries just happened to show up that morning.
2. I learned of the schism between Jerusalem and Antioch.
3. I learned of the schism between Constantinople and Russia.
4. The argument ensued between the Coptic missionaries and the priest - an argument that directly pertained to the precise nature of my concerns about the Orthodox Church.
5. I received a greatly anticipated email response from the Catholic priest back home containing words of spiritual comfort.

And, shortly after these events I was relocated for work to a neighboring country where there were no Orthodox churches, in a city with the single highest concentration of Catholics. Not to mention the lasting friendship I made with the two Copts or the above-mentioned chance encounter I had at a Catholic church shortly before leaving for my new job.

It may just be happy coincidence, but I cannot help but think that these events were no less than answered prayers as a direct result of praying the rosary. People often talk about having encounters with God, and I must say that this series of events is about as close as I’ve ever come to “hearing” the voice of God.

And yet, incredibly enough, I STILL find reasons to doubt. I suffer from the affliction of St. Thomas the Apostle – I need to see the marks in His hands; I need to place my hand in His pierced side; I need to see Him, so that in seeing I may believe and proclaim, “my Lord and my God!” Pray for me, a wretched sinner. Thanks for listening.

 

[AlNg]

By the time I ended up in this foreign country, I had already been investigating Apostolic Christianity for quite some time, and I was already well into the Catholic/Orthodox debate.

Why do you suppose that the Roman Catholic Church suffered a Protestant Reformation with millions of Christians turning away from Roman Catholicism and toward Protestantism, but the Orthodox Churches did not experience such. Also, did you have any thoughts on the Inquisition or the burning of people at the stake which occurred in the west, but not so much in the East?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Thanks for listening.

How interesting and powerful story. Thanks for sharing.

they began to make a defense for why the Oriental Orthodox were not cut off from the Body of Christ because the disagreement between the Chalcedonians and the non-Chalcedonians was merely political, not theological

I for one sympathize with Copts a lot. If you read history of Council of Chalcedon you will find out that this was mostly Greek-Coptic conflict. Alexandria had primacy in the East but Constantinople was imperial city so there was clear rivalry between them. Alexandrian Pope however went as far as to deny Rome when Constantinople was right that time… and Constantinople used Council of Chalcedon to elevate themselves above Alexandria (something initially not accepted by any Patriarchs except ones appointed by Emperor). Copts wanted to attend Chalcedon but Council was closed before they came, and translation to Coptic was so wrong they thought of us (Chalcedonians) as Nestorians. Then great persecution from Byzantine Emperors came and quite interestingly, Copts were relieved to be conquered by Muslims. It is sad history. Catholic Church nowadays recognizes theology of Miaphysites (Copts, Armenians and basically Oriental Orthodox Communion). Some Eastern Catholic Churches even profess Miaphysitism (but in it’s true sense, so not heretical at all). I very much sympathize with Copts because they were indeed very unlucky. Their theology is closer to us than Greek one and their ecclesiology too. Armenians for example were close to communion with Rome several times in history, and they still are quite close to us now. I feel that if there was as much effort in Oriental Orthodox-Catholic dialogue as there is in Eastern Orthodox-Catholic dialogue, we would be united by now… and I yearn for such day.

Why do you suppose that the Roman Catholic Church suffered a Protestant Reformation with millions of Christians turning away from Roman Catholicism and toward Protestantism, but the Orthodox Churches did not experience such.

Devil always attacks what he fears. But then again, if you read history of Reformation… it cleansed the Church. Yes, there were schisms and heresies but nobles trying to exploit the Church just went Protestant. Church was finally able to call Council of Trent without being politically boycotted because one country wouldn’t attend if their enemies were invited and vice versa. Abuses dropped and dogmas were precisely defined. Devil’s attack on True Church did not work.

 

[AlNg]

Devil’s attack on True Church did not work.

So there really are not 800 million Protestants in the world today?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

So there really are not 800 million Protestants in the world today?

They may be in the world, but they aren’t in the Church. I said Devil attacked Church didn’t I?

 

[AlNg]

I said Devil attacked Church didn’t I?

So it was Satan who caused the Protestant Reformation? It was all due to the Devil?
Was there some reason why the Devil did not do the same to the Greek Orthodox church?

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

Was there some reason why the Devil did not do the same to the Greek Orthodox church?

The devil didn’t need to cause a Protestant Reformation in Orthodoxy, for Orthodoxy was already oppressed by the Muslims and then later by the Communists. And interestingly, the largest Church that remained free of Islamic rule (Russian Orthodox Church) had to contend with schism (the Old Believers) and heretical cults, before being completely crucified under the Atheist regime.

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

I’d fluctuate back and forth between strong faith in the truth of Orthodoxy and strong faith in the truth of Roman Catholicism, and this state of affairs carried on for quite some time;

God bless you. I went through this prior to my Baptism/Chrismation in 2016 and now am experiencing the same struggle in my soul.

after coming to my wits’ end a bit, on a Saturday night right before going to bed, I finally pulled the beads out and prayed my first rosary.

In a similar state of utter confusion and despair a month or so ago, I too prayed the Rosary for the first time. There is such sweet consolation from our Mother in those prayers. I now pray the Rosary regularly throughout the week.

Specifically, I prayed to the Theotokos to beseech her Son for the grace of illumination regarding my search for the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

This has been my prayer for months now…

Jerusalem and Antioch had severed communion over a disagreement in Qatar, and – more shockingly – Moscow had officially severed communion with the Ecumenical Patriarch.

Lord have mercy. Yes, I was on pilgrimage when I first heard the news of the dispute between Moscow and Constantinople and I immediately thought, “So, Great Schism 2.0 has finally happened.” We hope and pray that the schism may yet be healed between Constantinople and Moscow, Jerusalem and Antioch, (and from this sinner’s lips also come prayers for reconciliation between Rome and the Orthodox.)

This is a major sticking point for me, and in my heart and mind, if the Moscow faction gathers, holds a Council and anathematizes “Constantinople Papism” (as a major ROC website calls the position of Constantinople), and subsequently Rome, then I have decided I can no longer be an Orthodox Christian, and will be join the traditionalists in the Roman Rite or become Eastern Catholic.

“yes, of course.”

Lord have mercy. Yes. This is one problem with Orthodox ethnic ecclesiology (which began geographically then became ethnic over the ages), is that in disputes like this the first temptation is to side with your national church rather than pursuing the Truth.

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

Something wasn’t quite right; something was missing; the “story” wasn’t yet quite complete, and my soul was far from being at peace.

This has been my experience as well. I have a lingering sense that something is missing from the Orthodox mindset, something is unbalanced, incomplete, etc. It seems mostly to be in ecclesiology that Orthodoxy is deficient, for her spirituality is exalted, her liturgy Divinely preserved and grown, her art and architecture worthy of expressing the Kingdom of heaven, and her theology wondrously mysterious yet clearly defined and zealously guarded.

And yet, incredibly enough, I STILL find reasons to doubt. I suffer from the affliction of St. Thomas the Apostle – I need to see the marks in His hands; I need to place my hand in His pierced side; I need to see Him, so that in seeing I may believe and proclaim, “my Lord and my God!” Pray for me, a wretched sinner. Thanks for listening.

God bless you, my brother. Thank you for sharing your story. I also struggle with such doubts. Right now to give my mind and soul a bit of a rest as pray over what to do, I have decided to be tenuously “a Catholic in exile in Orthodoxy,” or consider Orthodoxy to be the best I can find for my salvation at this present moment. This is all subject to change, and my deepest sympathies lie with the Catholic Church.

O, that the Great Schism were healed, and we could share in the communion of our theological treasures given to us by the Apostles and preserved by the Holy Spirit down the ages.

Prayers.

 

[ColoradoCatholic]

What did the early church fathers say? Go back to the originals and see what they felt. If its a decision of papacy or no papacy…choose papacy, because that’s how the church started and that’s what Christ intended. As we see with St. Peter.

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

What did the early church fathers say? Go back to the originals and see what they felt.

I wish it were that clear cut. But both sides, Catholic and Orthodox can proof-text the Holy Fathers in their debates over Papacy, Primacy, and Supremacy.

 

[ColoradoCatholic]

its not about proof text…all the text is what matters. you have to take it as a whole, and then you’ll find that for a good 1000 years the papacy was definitely a thing. You cannot deny the history.