Question for Catholics about Redemptive Suffering

[Tommy999]

This thread is mainly for Catholics but anyone who is familiar is welcome to answer.

I have grown to learn and appreciate many Catholic beliefs since I joined CAF. However, one that I still have trouble fully comprehending is ‘Redemptive Suffering’. I don’t necessarily disagree with it – I just don’t fully understand what it is and why Jesus’ redemptive suffering on the cross for mankind was/is not sufficient. However, it is very possible I misunderstand the term and I want to understand it.

Could you please explain in layman’s terms what ‘Redemptive Suffering’ is and why it is important that we Christians offer it up to God? Also, can you provide some real life examples to illustrate it?

I believe that "all things work for good for those who are in Christ Jesus’ and that we are to “take up our cross” and follow Him so perhaps I just misunderstand the meaning of the term, ‘Redemptive Suffering’.

For example, my wife suffers from fibromyalgia and is in a lot of physical pain much of the time, even though she loves and serves Jesus with a fervor at times beyond that of mine. How can she turn that into redemptive suffering’or is that even possible? Your help in understand this is much appreciated. :tiphat:

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Sorry to hear about your spouse.

A big difference between Catholics and Protestants is our understanding of salvation. Protestants see it as a one time event, where as Catholics say it is a process. Jesus says you are to be perfect just as the Father is perfect. Matthew 5:48 The book of Revelation says nothing unclean will enter heaven. Revelation 21:27 We will be perfected now or later in purgatory. 1 Corinthians 3:15 Better to do it now.

The Spirit is like a Divine artist. He can work with clay, or he can work with marble. Many of us are marble, unfortunately. Many of us don’t feel a need for God until something bad happens to us. Ultimately you want pure love of God and perfectly contrite heart, but if you cant muster up any love for God, fear is not a bad place to start.

I think Jesus sacrifice is sufficient. What’s not set in stone is our cooperation with God. We break covenant with him with sin, we turn away from Him. So if you are a person who was marble and something happened to you that put the fear of God into you(like say, cancer) You would ultimately see that infirmity as a blessing(you may even boast in it 2 Corinthians 11:30) that steered you towards God or closer to God and helped you attain eternal life. You “offer it up” and join with Jesus and the paradox of the cross in his suffering. It’s such a mystical paradox, in both cases, what appears to be bad is actually good.

I’ve always pictured Luke 16 parable as a form of redemptive suffering:

Luke 16:19-25New International Version (NIV)

The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.

And BTW, when we say offer it up, we can apply that to all uncomfortable aspects of life. Having problems with your boss? Offer it up. Have a difficult spouse? Offer it up. Ultimately all these things in life are purifying us now so that we wont need much purifying later.

Thanks for the great question.

Pax

 

[katy]

I always think of this. It’s not that Christ’s sufferings, or anything else he did, are not sufficient, but he lets us participate in his work, which includes his sufferings. We are his body and join him in everything.
Colossians, chapter 1

His Person and Work

24Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking* in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church,

 

[Jon_S_1]

Picture the refiner’s fire. That things are purified and made more perfect through heating, melting, burning.

That is sort of the principle, that through our struggles we can relate to God in new ways that we would not be able to if we did not experience that pain and suffering. It purifies us, makes us holy, refines us.

Think of how close to God the poor and downtrodden can be compared to the wealthy and elite…that is a real life example.

 

[LaetenturCaeli]

St. John Paul II:

The Cross of Christ throws salvific light, in a most penetrating way, on man’s life and in particular on his suffering. For through faith the Cross reaches man together with the Resurrection: the mystery of the Passion is contained in the Paschal Mystery. The witnesses of Christ’s Passion are at the same time witnesses of his Resurrection. Paul writes: “That I may know him (Christ) and the power of his Resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead”(64). Truly, the Apostle first experienced the “power of the Resurrection” of Christ, on the road to Damascus, and only later, in this paschal light, reached that " sharing in his sufferings" of which he speaks, for example, in the Letter to the Galatians. The path of Paul is clearly paschal: sharing in the Cross of Christ comes about through the experience of the Risen One, therefore through a special sharing in the Resurrection. Thus, even in the Apostle’s expressions on the subject of suffering there so often appears the motif of glory, which finds its beginning in Christ’s Cross.

I would encourage you to read more here, especially part five: w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_letters/1984/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris.html.

 

[hazcompat]

whitelilyoftrinity.com/saints_quotes_suffering.html

Peace

 

[lifeandhope]

I always think of this. It’s not that Christ’s sufferings, or anything else he did, are not sufficient, but he lets us participate in his work, which includes his sufferings. We are his body and join him in everything.
Colossians, chapter 1

His Person and Work

24Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking* in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church,

As a wife and mother of two ‘tween’ girls who has suffered with cancer, relentless and escalating pain, illness, and disability, redemptive suffering has profound meaning that I cling to daily. This is a vast topic and I’ll only contribute this (as others have provided some excellent (name removed by moderator)ut): I don’t view redemptive suffering as much from the perspective that it is needed “or else” or that God is relying on me to offer up my suffering to carry out His will and plan. Rather, redemptive suffering is a precious gift God has allowed ME so that through my suffering and in my constant desperation and near-hopeless state, I have the honor to join my pain and suffering to Jesus’ and thus it gives my suffering a purpose or at least a manner in which I can see my suffering as something other than the hopeless hell I experience. It is a principle that propels me forward, minute by minute, knowing my pain isn’t just ‘out there somewhere in the universe’ and serving no purpose whatsoever but to drive me to ruin. The suffering now is something I can unite with and cling to my Savior Who also suffered horribly and therefore know I am not alone forever and that while my pain seems utterly pointless, it can be redeemed, put to use, because of the gracious mercy of God. This humbles me beyond belief and gives me an entirely different view from which to experience my pain and trauma and illness. God may not remove the burden, but He will use what would otherwise be useless for His glory. I am beyond grateful to my wise and loving husband, priests, and confessors who all remind me constantly to keep redemptive suffering at the forefront lest I lose hope (I’m on the verge of despair continually otherwise).

I hope it makes sense, what I’m attempting to convey. It’s the middle of another sleepless night for me so I’m not firing on all cylinders at the moment. And speaking of strife and sleeplessness and a reminder of hope, I’ll end with this quote by Marcus Mumford:

If your strife strikes at your sleep
Remember Spring swaps snow for leaves
You’ll be happy and wholesome again
When the city clears and the sun [Son!] ascends

 

[Sarcelle]

As a wife and mother of two ‘tween’ girls who has suffered with cancer, relentless and escalating pain, illness, and disability, redemptive suffering has profound meaning that I cling to daily. This is a vast topic and I’ll only contribute this (as others have provided some excellent (name removed by moderator)ut): I don’t view redemptive suffering as much from the perspective that it is needed “or else” or that God is relying on me to offer up my suffering to carry out His will and plan. Rather, redemptive suffering is a precious gift God has allowed ME so that through my suffering and in my constant desperation and near-hopeless state, I have the honor to join my pain and suffering to Jesus’ and thus it gives my suffering a purpose or at least a manner in which I can see my suffering as something other than the hopeless hell I experience. It is a principle that propels me forward, minute by minute, knowing my pain isn’t just ‘out there somewhere in the universe’ and serving no purpose whatsoever but to drive me to ruin. The suffering now is something I can unite with and cling to my Savior Who also suffered horribly and therefore know I am not alone forever and that while my pain seems utterly pointless, it can be redeemed, put to use, because of the gracious mercy of God. This humbles me beyond belief and gives me an entirely different view from which to experience my pain and trauma and illness. God may not remove the burden, but He will use what would otherwise be useless for His glory. I am beyond grateful to my wise and loving husband, priests, and confessors who all remind me constantly to keep redemptive suffering at the forefront lest I lose hope (I’m on the verge of despair continually otherwise).

I hope it makes sense, what I’m attempting to convey. It’s the middle of another sleepless night for me so I’m not firing on all cylinders at the moment. And speaking of strife and sleeplessness and a reminder of hope, I’ll end with this quote by Marcus Mumford:

If your strife strikes at your sleep
Remember Spring swaps snow for leaves
You’ll be happy and wholesome again
When the city clears and the sun [Son!] ascends

Having gone through the refiner’s fire myself, redemptive suffering means that suffering, if offered to God, will in time yield good fruit. The suffering itself is not good but it can lead to good. To me it is like the triumph of good over evil. Even in the face of evil, which is suffering itself, good can come out.

I used to think when I was atheist that redemptive suffering was proof God likes to see us suffer. I ask my spiritual director this and he gave me the answer of good coming out of evil.

 

[Tommy999]

Thanks to everyone for all the helpful replies and to links to more info on the subject. They are helping. I especially want to thank lifeandhope for a real life example of redemptive suffering I can very much relate to with my wife, even though the example comes out of your own physical pain. May the Lord bless you, comfort you, and be your strength now and always as he helps give your physical suffering new meaning. Your sleeplessness last night turned into a blessing for me and I thank you very much for that.

I think God really wants me to grasp this subject because on the way to work this morning, which is a 15-20 minutes drive, I turned on EWTN radio as I usually do only to hear host Annie Mitchell interviewing Fr Andrew Apostoli on the topic of – you guessed it – redemptive suffering. I listen to that program almost daily and never heard that topic come up before during the time I tuned in.

He gave another biblical example of redemptive suffering – how Simon the Cyrene suffered in carrying Jesus’ cross on the Via Dolorosa on the way to the cross.

Anyways, thanks again to everyone for the replies. Our God is an awesome God.

 

[lifeandhope]

Your sleeplessness last night turned into a blessing for me

Our God is an awesome God.

Redemptive insomnia!

I am always mindful that though I suffer, many others suffer infinitely more than I. I am so grateful God has provided me a perspective allowing me to know what was intended for evil He will fashion it into something for good; it doesn’t alleviate the suffering but it gives my heart hope upon which to cling.

 

[MT1926]

I always think of this. It’s not that Christ’s sufferings, or anything else he did, are not sufficient, but he lets us participate in his work, which includes his sufferings. We are his body and join him in everything.
Colossians, chapter 1

His Person and Work

24Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking* in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church,

This was the verse that popped into my head when I read Tommy’s question.

Just jumping on board to read the other great answers.

 

[RyanBlack]

A big difference between Catholics and Protestants is our understanding of salvation. Protestants see it as a one time event, where as Catholics say it is a process.

This is is not true of all Protestants. Generally, Methodist (the OP is Methodist) do not see salvation as a one-time event.

Jesus says you are to be perfect just as the Father is perfect. Matthew 5:48 The book of Revelation says nothing unclean will enter heaven. Revelation 21:27 We will be perfected now or later in purgatory. 1 Corinthians 3:15 Better to do it now.

Many Protestants have beliefs that are barely distinguishable from what Catholics believe about the requirement of being perfected prior to entering heaven. The chief difference on this matter for most Protestants is that their conception of purgation is not as developed as that of the Catholic Church.

 

[Wesrock]

Salvation is only possible by God’s grace. Redemption only possible through Christ’s sacrifice.

Our own suffering can be used to help detach ourselves from sin and to conform ourself to the image of Christ. Mortification of the flesh, under direction of a spiritual counselor, can be an appropriate way to “suffer” intentionally. We shouldn’t seek self harm and such, though if we do suffer we can offer it up to God, which, in a sense, is also like asking Christ to help you with your cross, and not blame God for it instead.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

This is is not true of all Protestants. Generally, Methodist (the OP is Methodist) do not see salvation as a one-time event.

Many Protestants have beliefs that are barely distinguishable from what Catholics believe about the requirement of being perfected prior to entering heaven. The chief difference on this matter for most Protestants is that their conception of purgation is not as developed as that of the Catholic Church.

For the most part they believe in Luther’s dung covered in snow theory on justification. They are justified and ready for heaven the minute they accept Jesus as their personal Lord and savior.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Having gone through the refiner’s fire myself, redemptive suffering means that suffering, if offered to God, will in time yield good fruit. The suffering itself is not good but it can lead to good. To me it is like the triumph of good over evil. Even in the face of evil, which is suffering itself, good can come out.

I used to think when I was atheist that redemptive suffering was proof God likes to see us suffer. I ask my spiritual director this and he gave me the answer of good coming out of evil.

Yup!

The age old question…why does God allow bad things to happen - answer- to bring a greater good out of it.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Thanks to everyone for all the helpful replies and to links to more info on the subject. They are helping. I especially want to thank lifeandhope for a real life example of redemptive suffering I can very much relate to with my wife, even though the example comes out of your own physical pain. May the Lord bless you, comfort you, and be your strength now and always as he helps give your physical suffering new meaning. Your sleeplessness last night turned into a blessing for me and I thank you very much for that.

**I think God really wants me to grasp this subject because on the way to work this morning, which is a 15-20 minutes drive, I turned on EWTN radio as I usually do only to hear host Annie Mitchell interviewing Fr Andrew Apostoli on the topic of – you guessed it – redemptive suffering. I listen to that program almost daily and never heard that topic come up before during the time I tuned in. **

He gave another biblical example of redemptive suffering – how Simon the Cyrene suffered in carrying Jesus’ cross on the Via Dolorosa on the way to the cross.

Anyways, thanks again to everyone for the replies. Our God is an awesome God.

It’s something that has always fascinated me. How God remains anonymous without being anonymous lol. Atheists think we are looney tunes but if they only knew how meaningful these ‘coincidences’ are to us, they, too, might start to seek a better understanding of life through the divine source.

The Spirit is such a gentleman yet such a great teacher.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Salvation is only possible by God’s grace. Redemption only possible through Christ’s sacrifice.

Our own suffering can be used to help detach ourselves from sin and to conform ourself to the image of Christ. Mortification of the flesh, under direction of a spiritual counselor, can be an appropriate way to “suffer” intentionally. We shouldn’t seek self harm and such, though if we do suffer we can offer it up to God, which, in a sense, is also like asking Christ to help you with your cross, and not blame God for it instead.

Right, some actually need this badly, while others do not. In both cases we can see it as a mystery of faith and ultimately a blessing as we draw closer to God.

 

[Wannano]

This is is not true of all Protestants. Generally, Methodist (the OP is Methodist) do not see salvation as a one-time event.

Many Protestants have beliefs that are barely distinguishable from what Catholics believe about the requirement of being perfected prior to entering heaven. The chief difference on this matter for most Protestants is that their conception of purgation is not as developed as that of the Catholic Church.

I believe you are right in your understanding of the beliefs of many non-catholics. It is so easy for us all to lump generalizations about Catholic -Protestant differences into statements that do not give generosity to the opposite viewpoint from our own.

I see salvation as both a one time event and a process. When Catholics say it is a process i do not think they mean they start out with nothing and eventually become good enough to merit salvation, but that it takes maintaining or a "working out " to be effective. There is a starting point somewhere. In my own personal experience I do not know of many Protestants who believe in OSAS.

Thnink of the thief on the cross, his salvation was a one time event. If after asking Jesus to save him he would have been released and set free, he would not have a licence to go back to his old ways and resume his lifestyle with the assurance that he is forever saved. Instead I believe it would have been a process for him to start his life over with putting on the “new man”.

 

[RyanBlack]

For the most part they believe in Luther’s dung covered in snow theory on justification. They are justified and ready for heaven the minute they accept Jesus as their personal Lord and savior.

Protestants who have basically Calvinist understandings of salvation, particularly perseverance of the saints/OSAS (including Baptists, who are the largest group of Protestants in the USA, but not worldwide), would tend towards this sort of thinking. However, Protestants who do not hold to OSAS–and they represent a considerable portion of Protestantism–tend to believe that believers must undergo some form of purgation/sanctification before entering into heaven.

 

[RyanBlack]

Protestants who do not hold to OSAS–and they represent a considerable portion of Protestantism–tend to believe that believers must undergo some form of purgation/sanctification before entering into heaven.

This belief implies the reality of some form of purgatory or theosis that continues after death, whether or not such Protestants realize it. When pressed, such Protestants might insist such post-death purgation to be instantaneous, but it is a form of purgation nonetheless.