Question for Catholics and Orthodox: would you follow your Church?

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Perhaps I will.
Yeah. And then after that you said, “your belief in the Eucharist is superficial”.

For shame. 😦
That is because you readily dismissed the Eucharist as the binding force of unity between the churches. That is the ONLY reality (imho) that will unite them because, when all is said and done, the dogma and doctrine are secondary to the Body of Christ.
 
That is because you readily dismissed the Eucharist as the binding force of unity between the churches.
Did I? Are you a reader of hearts? For shame!** :tsktsk: **

**Now you will be ignored. **
 
Defining a dogma doesn’t make it “suddenly” true. It just means that we always believed it to be true.

But, if the Pope is willing to admit that this dogma is wrong, then I have no choice but to be Orthodox. Until then.
The Pope cannot change dogma. Unless the Orthodox accept the Primacy of Christ’s Vicar and his infallibility there is no hope of a reunion. That is why I voted No.
 
The Pope cannot change dogma. Unless the Orthodox accept the Primacy of Christ’s Vicar and his infallibility there is no hope of a reunion. That is why I voted No.
**The historical development of both churches is so radically different from each other. Yet, up until the official schism, there didn’t seem to be a serious problem with the Orthodox recognition of the Chair of Peter. When the orthodox churches fell into nationalism and ethnicity and were at the mercy of these, particularly in Russia, that is when the Chair of Peter seemed to be openly challenged and refuted beginning with the Czar himself. Either the office of Peter is a valid office or it isn’t. There is only one. I cannot see where other patriarchates would be equal to this if Peter was the head of the apostles as is evident by scripture, and after his death others were chosen to take his place. As I said, the historical development of theology on this point is quite different. **
 
The historical development of both churches is so radically different from each other. Yet, up until the official schism, there didn’t seem to be a serious problem with the Orthodox recognition of the Chair of Peter. When the orthodox churches fell into nationalism and ethnicity and were at the mercy of these, particularly in Russia, that is when the Chair of Peter seemed to be openly challenged and refuted beginning with the Czar himself. Either the office of Peter is a valid office or it isn’t. There is only one. I cannot see where other patriarchates would be equal to this if Peter was the head of the apostles as is evident by scripture, and after his death others were chosen to take his place. As I said, the historical development of theology on this point is quite different.
Your post is full of opinion, but little in the way of substance.

Having national synods is not such a bad thing, your own church has revived the concept in national bishops conferences. The older synods were too independent for modern Popes, so they were suppressed in the 19th century, only to come back in a neutered form in the 20th century.

Primacy means something different to Latin Catholics these days, you should know then that the bishops of Rome (even in it’s most arrogant and ambitious administrations) were highly respected by Orthodox before the schism.

Now Latin Catholics interpret primacy to mean something it never meant before, and that is not acceptable.

You would be hard pressed to find evidence of Saint Peter the Apostle assuming the powers of a modern Pope. The Apostles clearly had more respect for each other.

The early church was a collection of individual churches, all of them in communion with each other. They gathered in synods to decide on mutually agreeable policies. Over much of Europe and the Levant the bishop of Rome had no involvement with local synodal gatherings and Councils (except in the central Italian region). This was even true in the west for many centuries.

In fact, the seven Ecumenical Councils were called and convened without the participation of the bishops of Rome, and they took effect without the appropval of that bishop being required.

Today however, Latin Catholics like to claim that Pope is actually superior to an Ecumenical Council, and from his judgnment there is no appeal. This is actually the basis for the Popes’ claim to jurisdiction in all matters, including the right to codify the Canons, editing and deleting, writing new canons at will. The first millenium has no evidence of anything like that.

When Latin Catholics draw up lists of the Councils, they usually cover the trail by listing the reigning Pope of the day, but do not address the fact that he did not call the Council or chair it. It is a less than honest way of addressing this truth, misleading many people into thinking that the way the Popes call and run Councils today was the way it has always been.

When you ascribe the differences between us to nationalism you had better also acknowledge the fact the Frankish nationalism and rivalry with the East Romans was a key element in the great schism. It was the Frankish dominance of western Europe, and the Papacy, which altered the original ecclesiology of your church.

Michael
 
Your post is full of opinion, but little in the way of substance.

Having national synods is not such a bad thing, your own church has revived the concept in national bishops conferences. The older synods were too independent for modern Popes, so they were suppressed in the 19th century, only to come back in a neutered form in the 20th century.

Vatican II gave the bishops’ conferences more lee-way in making decisions for the countries they serve, but such decisions need to be ‘approved’ by the pope. But a lot of dialogue goes into this process; neither the pope nor the bishops can rubber stamp anything without approval from both.

Primacy means something different to Latin Catholics these days, you should know then that the bishops of Rome (even in it’s most arrogant and ambitious administrations) were highly respected by Orthodox before the schism. Now Latin Catholics interpret primacy to mean something it never meant before, and that is not acceptable.

Primacy is two-fold: first, it has to do with the office of Peter and the special charism bestowed upon it by Christ Himself through Peter and, eventually, those who followed him in that position. This is all wrapped up in both Old Testament and New Testament fulfillment of the Davidic Kingdom about which I am sure you know the arguments. Second, primacy means that the pope, together with the bishops, when making a pronouncement having to do with the Faith or with morals, cannot err because the Faith is protected and preserved by the Holy Spirit. As for secondary matters, it doesn’t hold (i.e., canon law, discipline, etc.). Ex-cathedra only happens very rarely in the Church.

You would be hard pressed to find evidence of Saint Peter the Apostle assuming the powers of a modern Pope. The Apostles clearly had more respect for each other.

**Powers of the modern pope are rooted in the historical development of the papacy. Remember that for centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire, the bishop of Rome assumed all the essentials (and non-essentials) of the position of the emperors and the bishop basically held it all together for a time.But this no longer holds and, actually, was abolished with the Vatican Concordat between Mussolini and the pope earlier in the 20th century. **

The early church was a collection of individual churches, all of them in communion with each other. They gathered in synods to decide on mutually agreeable policies. Over much of Europe and the Levant the bishop of Rome had no involvement with local synodal gatherings and Councils (except in the central Italian region). This was even true in the west for many centuries.

Agreed.

In fact, the seven Ecumenical Councils were called and convened without the participation of the bishops of Rome, and they took effect without the appropval of that bishop being required.

They also took place with very little participation by western bishops, from my understanding.

Today however, Latin Catholics like to claim that Pope is actually superior to an Ecumenical Council, and from his judgnment there is no appeal. This is actually the basis for the Popes’ claim to jurisdiction in all matters, including the right to codify the Canons, editing and deleting, writing new canons at will. The first millenium has no evidence of anything like that.

That is not exactly true. Some Latin Catholics may like to make that claim for the pope, but no pope is ever superior to an ecumenical council, and that was very obvious during Vatican II. Neither John XXIII nor Paul VI ever made an appeal to any type of superiority over the council because that is not what their roles were. Also, popes do not codify the canons - canon lawyers do that; they do the editing and deleting. After serious review with a pontifical commission to review any changes in the law, the pope and the commission will either agree or disagree, but usually they have always agreed. It’s not a rubber-stamped process at all; it never was. Canon law is the law which binds the Church together, as do laws of any society.

When Latin Catholics draw up lists of the Councils, they usually cover the trail by listing the reigning Pope of the day, but do not address the fact that he did not call the Council or chair it. It is a less than honest way of addressing this truth, misleading many people into thinking that the way the Popes call and run Councils today was the way it has always been.

For the Western Church, all of the councils are valid.

When you ascribe the differences between us to nationalism you had better also acknowledge the fact the Frankish nationalism and rivalry with the East Romans was a key element in the great schism. It was the Frankish dominance of western Europe, and the Papacy, which altered the original ecclesiology of your church.

Michael
**Perhaps. However, again, the historical development of what we have is radically different from the development of the eastern churches, both in culture, philosophy, and politics. The fact is, we in the western church have a pope, a ‘papa’ who binds the Church together in a unique way understood by what has been discerned through both Scripture and its tradition. **

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut, Michael. we should discuss this further at some point. It’s quite interesting.
 
An excerpt from the book “You Are Peter” by Olivier Clement

(regarding an incident that ocurred at the Vatican I Council)


The courageous Greek Catholic Patriarch of Antioch, Gregory II Youssef, proclaimed that the Church “was not an absolute monarchy.” After he expressed his view to Pius IX that the definitions prepared were not in accordance with Tradition, there came the famous reply: “I am Tradition.” And when, taking leave at the end of the council, the archbishop prostrated himself to kiss the papal slipper, Pius IX rudely placed his foot on the nape of his neck and, putting his weight on it, cried out: “A stiff-necked fellow!”
The Holy Orthodox Church believes that She is the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. 👍
You may believe that, but you are wrong and history proves it. The Catholic Church, ALONE is the ONE Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. There is no room for debate on this point. If we are not part of you then you are just wrong. If we are part of you, then you are only right in that you are really part of us. The faith in the One True Eucharist demands this.
 
You may believe that, but you are wrong and history proves it.
I am not wrong because you say that I am. History is on the side of Orthodoxy. It is always my prayer that Rome returns to the fold of Holy Orthodoxy.
 
I am not wrong because you say that I am. History is on the side of Orthodoxy. It is always my prayer that Rome returns to the fold of Holy Orthodoxy.
Did you ever take the time to read the history of the western church in addition to the eastern churches? I am sure you will be amazed.
 
Did you ever take the time to read the history of the western church in addition to the eastern churches? I am sure you will be amazed.
I would have to agree here. Sometimes I feel like maybe Orthodoxy is the way to go… but then I remeber Church history and well I have to say that I am always swayed back to the Catholic Church. We Roman Catholics have a handbasket full of problems right now, but hey even Christ said we will have wolfs among the sheep, weeds among the grain, and Christ will sort it out like the harvest.

Only in the Catholic Church do you find Western, Eastern and Oriental Christians. We are still one, even if in some regions there are more who have left for the schismatic Church, the Catholic Church is there.

Although I will agree with you Orthodox that National divisions are not inherently bad, but I think you take them too far, when a Church like the one in Estonia has to struggle to be independent from the Russian Church and this causes walkouts during theological discussions and all of that. It is a hinderence and not a benefit.
 
I am not wrong because you say that I am. History is on the side of Orthodoxy. It is always my prayer that Rome returns to the fold of Holy Orthodoxy.
Fine, you want to go over it historical point by historical point? The Church is right and everytime, EVERYTIME, one of these discussions starts between Catholics and Orthodox, The Catholics always win because we are right. You can talk about Constantinople all you want or the painting on Mt. Athos of an execution that never happened all you want, the ONLY issue that ever mattered in the schism is the Eucharist. Filioque you made up later once you realized that you were wrong bud didn’t want to admit it. Then Filioque was done away with (but some of you blindly hang on to it) so then you had to come up with this or that other reason but each time it is just a delaying tactic. If your pride and your hate for Latin will just force you out of the Church, then it wouldn’t matter if the Latin Church did change to meet your demands, you would still reject us. All I keep seeing from the fringes of the orthodox like you is that you really just want the Latin Rite to go away, be destroyed. But that can’t happen because God himself is protecting our Church, and to want to destroy us sounds like you are on the side of the gates of hell.

Why are we in schism? NOT over Latin. NOT over Filioque. NOT over Papal Primacy/ Infallibility (though we will require your acceptance of these true doctrines before the schism can be healed) Not over the sack of Constantinople.

Why are we in schism? One reason, THE EUCHARIST. The Eucharist is all that matter. If everything else of the Catholic Faith were to be taken away from us, The Eucharist is all we would ever need to worship GOD as he commands. All of these other doctrines flow from the Eucharist. Take away even one, even ONE essential doctrine and you begin to attack the Eucharist. Take away the Eucharist and all the other doctrines don’t make any sense.

Why are we in schism? Because your patriarch Michael I went into the sanctuary of a Church, denyed the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, broke open a tabernacle and threw, THREW, the body and blood of my Lord, King and GOD Jesus Christ on the floor and stepped on it. That is why we are in schism. That is the only reason. You can make up whatever issue you want to remain outside of the Catholic church so that you don’t have to admit this but you are still wrong.

We see the fruits of this as well. In your orthodox churches there is no unity of doctrine, just form (prex). You allow divorce. You think that kingship is a SACREMENT. Some of your patriarchs even gave this “sacrement” of kingship to muslim and later communist rulers. Why did you do this? Because you took your eyes away from Jesus as the Real Presence in the Eucharist.

Thankfully, your current church fathers are coming around and allowing God to soften their hearts to see the truth of the Caholic Church. Healing the Schism is the right thing to do but it can not be done with false ecumenism. The Doctrines can not, must not change. Other accomodations can be made, but not on doctrine.

But I already know that you are going to once again throw up your picture of St. Whoever to say once again “please don’t let us become part of the Catholic Church”. Fine, you feel that way. You all don’t need a central leader anyway right? Go off into the woods all by yourself and pretend that you have a valid Eucharist. We will be over here ready to take you back whenever you get your thinking clear. We will worship God as God intends. You might as well go and be a protestant. You probably were one of those people that went to meet John Paul the Great with a “papa persona non grata” or “Pope is Anti-Christ” signs. You were weren’t you? I can tell. OH, no wonder you hate us so much. You have passed prejudicial judgement on the Holy Father, calling him the anti-christ before you ever knew anything about him. You really are a protestant in disguise. You see this tone I am using here. You see how hurtful it is. Yet I do it out of love and respect for you because you need to know what Catholics are thinking about you when you try to hide behind any of these other issues like Papal Infallibility, or the Filioque. The Eucharist is the ONLY issue, believe me. If Jesus is ONE then there is only ONE valid Eucharist then only ONE Church established by Jesus has the ONE Eucharist. I have no doubt whatsoever that The Holy Catholic Church is that Church with that ONE valid Eucharist. If our churches can not overcome the harms of he past and heal this schism, then I will be forced to doubt highly the validity of the Eucharist in your church. This is the intellectually honest thing for me to do. I already think that one of your ‘sacrements’ is a complete sham (king ship) and I see how you treat the other by allowing it to be desolved (marriage) so that already puts your other sacrements into question.
 
dude the Eucharist in the EO Churches is valid. The Catholic Church has stated it is. You may be loving in your harshness, but unless you are correct down to a “t” you cannot be that harsh without causing the discussion to dissolve into polemics.
 
The Church is right and everytime, EVERYTIME, one of these discussions starts between Catholics and Orthodox, The Catholics always win because we are right.
I see.
or the painting on Mt. Athos of an execution that never happened
:confused:
Filioque you made up later once you realized that you were wrong bud didn’t want to admit it.
Filioque was an addition that was never in the Creed. Orthodoxy surely did not “make it up”.
Then Filioque was done away with (but some of you blindly hang on to it)
From what I understand, the Filioque is still recited in all Roman Catholic Churches and some Eastern Catholic Churches. Why would the Orthodox hang onto something that never existed and was never recognized. :confused:
If your pride and your hate for Latin will just force you out of the Church, then it wouldn’t matter if the Latin Church did change to meet your demands, you would still reject us.
Pride is a personal problem for me–I fight it everyday the wretched sinner that I am. But I do not hate you or the Latin Catholic Church–please do not falsely accuse me. 😦
If All I keep seeing from the fringes of the orthodox like you is that you really just want the Latin Rite to go away, be destroyed.
Wow! Settle down my brother! You are going off the deep end here. I am not from the fringes and I do not want to see your destruction. Lord have mercy!
and to want to destroy us sounds like you are on the side of the gates of hell.
Now I am on Satan’s side?!? My dear brother—take a deep breath. 😦
Why are we in schism? NOT over Latin. NOT over Filioque. NOT over Papal Primacy/ **Infallibility **(though we will require your acceptance of these true doctrines before the schism can be healed).
That cannot happen. Holy Orthodoxy cannot accept innovations.
Healing the Schism is the right thing to do but it can not be done with false ecumenism.
Agreed. St Mark of Ephesus preached against compromise.
The Doctrines can not, must not change.
Agreed.
But I already know that you are going to once again throw up your picture of St. Whoever to say once again “please don’t let us become part of the Catholic Church”.
Huh? :confused:
Go off into the woods all by yourself and pretend that you have a valid Eucharist.
Your Church (Pope) says that Holy Orthodoxy has Apostolic Succession and valid Sacraments–this includes the Holy Euucharist. Do you disagree with your Pope? Why do you calumniate Holy Orthodoxy?
You probably were one of those people that went to meet John Paul the Great with a “papa persona non grata” or “Pope is Anti-Christ” signs. You were weren’t you? I can tell.
I cannot believe you wrote that.
OH, no wonder you hate us so much.
I do not hate you. But after reading this post, I will be praying for you.
You have passed prejudicial judgement on the Holy Father, calling him the anti-christ before you ever knew anything about him.
False accusation.
You really are a protestant in disguise. You see this tone I am using here. You see how hurtful it is.
It is not hurting me—it is hurting you. 😦
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_29.gif
 
You may believe that, but you are wrong and history proves it. The Catholic Church, ALONE is the ONE Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church…
If you are referring to the Papal ultramontanist church centered at Rome, Italy…

I disagree.

I am certain we will always disagree, so I am OK with it. You and others should know that Holy Orthodoxy stands as a witness to the falsehood of your weak claims.

Elements of your church have tried to get rid of us for ten centuries…attacking, suppressing, public bullying such as you do here, coercing through legal pressure and even attempting to buy us out with promises, but we still stand.

Like John Paul II before him, Pope Benedict XVI has made reunification with Holy Orthodoxy his highest priority, that his because we have held faithfully to the Received Faith, with a dignified liturgy unsullied by modernist tendencies or inventive practices.

ALL THIS WITHOUT HAVING ANYTHING LIKE A POPE, EVER! If we can do it, you can too. But since you church’s record in these things is so poor our Orthodox Catholic independence serves as a constant reminder and embarassment over the fact that your innovative Papacy has not served you well.

The solution? Get rid of the Orthodox!
 
Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut, Michael. we should discuss this further at some point. It’s quite interesting.
Hello peary,

Thank you for the nice response.

I got a little testy there because of that other fellow, I should learn not to burn like that, I apologize.

I did want to address one point you made:
**Some Latin Catholics may like to make that claim for the pope, but no pope is ever superior to an ecumenical council, and that was very obvious during Vatican II. Neither John XXIII nor Paul VI ever made an appeal to any type of superiority over the council because that is not what their roles were. **
I am thinking that they never had to make the appeal. They allowed the Council to proceed on that basis, but it did not change prior claims. They did not, for instance, do anything to reverse the claim of Universal Jurisdiction, nor did they mitigate the punishment (Anathema, and excommunication latae sententiae) for Catholics who disagree with it.
Also, popes do not codify the canons - canon lawyers do that; they do the editing and deleting. After serious review with a pontifical commission to review any changes in the law, the pope and the commission will either agree or disagree, but usually they have always agreed. It’s not a rubber-stamped process at all; it never was. Canon law is the law which binds the Church together, as do laws of any society.
The canon lawyers have no authority of their own.

In fact, they have no legitimate place in the process, not having anything like equivelance to the actual Fathers who participate in the Councils which would have been responsible for the Canons of the church.

That would be like a staff of Attorneys rewriting laws. It is the legislature, and only in session, which has the authority to do that.

The Canon lawyers employed by the various dicasteries are functioning under the authority of the Pope, and his alone, by delegation. These people are merely secretaries to the Pope, under whose authority everything in the Curia happens.

That is the same as the appointment of bishops. We know that there are so many the Pope cannot possuibly fulfuill this function by himself. He does not know most of the candidates, he reads reports prepared for him. Delegates of the Pope are actually responsible for this task, but they function as delegates, not in their own right.

Michael
 
As I read these post on here I become very saddened. As a Catholic of the Latin rite Church I Have little knowledge of the organizational structure of the Orthodox nor do I know their liturgical practices. What I do know The Orthodox share with Catholics Apostolic secession. valid sacraments, valid priesthood. The things that separate us seem so minor if we look at them.
  1. Papal primacy and infallibility: I think that the Orthodox even agree that the Bishop of Rome is the first among equals ( the Prime Bishop) which to me says that even among those of equal status they would like to him( the Prime one ) to take their Queue. and Infallibility I believe at It has only been invoked twice since it defining moment. So this is not even a issue that arises enough to be a issue.
  2. The Filioque: If we go on the understanding the The 3 persons of the Trinity are one the whether or not we say in the Creed that We believe in the Holy Spirit who proceeds for the Father … or we say We believe in the Holy Spirit who proceeds for the Father and the Son… we are saying the same thing for the father and the son are one and the same are they not?
  3. Purgatory: I have heard the the Orthodox hold to a belief in this but that its teaching is different that that of Catholics. As I myself have never been dead I do not know what the process is after death for cleansing the soul for enter into Heaven just that something must happen and as my Priest told me when I was 13 going through instruction for First communion( I have told the story on how I returned to the Church in other post) we don’t know if it’s instantaneous or a process that last for some time. this again appears to be a no issue but a personal holding an a pray that those who go before us gain entrance to Heaven as quickly as possible.
  4. Limbo: As both Orthodox(I think) and Catholic believe that Baptism is ordered for salvation. Then we do not know how God works the salvation of the the unbaptized Child (thus Limbo/ meaning we just don’t know).
  5. The Liturgy: No matter if its the Orthodox Divine Liturgy or the Catholic Mass( TLM or NO) they did not come to us directly for Jesus. I do not recall any of the current rituals being done in any of the Gospels. Therefore they were developed as a tool to administer worship and praise to the Throne of God, to bring us together of Holy Eucharist. We can see with Eastern Catholic Churches that Rome has no desire to force the liturgy of the west on the East but see both as valid so this to should be of no issue.
Brother and Sister of both Holy Catholic and Holy Orthodox we need to look at those things that bind us, not on those that separate us. Now for one thing (I could be wrong) In cases of death if I was not able to locate a Catholic priest, but a Orthodox priest was available, it would not be wrong for him to administer the sacraments to me. Why then do we not just come into communion with one another at all times? the answer is simple and applies to both sides. Mans stubborn arrogance. I stand with Rome and if the Pope says that we are now in communion with the Orthodox I accept this on what even grounds that would be. Just as I would pray the if the Bishops of Orthodox Churches were to tell there people that they were now in communion with Rome I would expect them to except as well. To do other wise is to create yet another schism and to separate oneself from the Church.
 
  1. The Filioque: If we go on the understanding the The 3 persons of the Trinity are one the whether or not we say in the Creed that We believe in the Holy Spirit who proceeds for the Father … or we say We believe in the Holy Spirit who proceeds for the Father and the Son… we are saying the same thing for the father and the son are one and the same are they not?
The Nicene Creed states that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (filioque). The Orthodox believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father.

Filique was added to the Creed in Spain if I remember correctly as a response to refute a heresy going around at the time, perhaps arianism but I’m not absolutely sure. The use of “and the Son” spread through western Europe. The Pope liked it and stuck it permanently into the Creed. The problem was that he didn’t discuss it with any of his fellow Bishops and the Eastern Bishops felt it was not a true statement.

I read this in a book written by a Greek Orthodox Bishop.
 
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