Question for Catholics and Orthodox: would you follow your Church?

[Mickey]

Sometimes, you just have to sit back and watch it happen

So you do not believe in freewill. Okay.

 

[Mickey]

On the other hand, the Orthodox (while I love them much) became schsmatic and therefore succumbed to some error in their doctrine

But it was post-schism Rome who innovated new doctrines?

 

[StevenFrancis]

Should the two Churches reunite, would you put your complete trust in Christ and follow your Church and the reunited Church?

Here’s an article on the Ravenna Talks. They discuss how talks are getting places, but reunification is still a while off, and in God’s time.

For Catholics and Orthodox, for the reunited Church, would you accept all the terms of their reunification? Even if it meant some sort of change in custom, liturgy, defining more deeply a doctrine or dogma etc? I personally would accept it all without exception, because if I didn’t, I personally would feel like I were betraying Christ, Our Lord.

What say the rest of you and why?

Alaha minokhoun
Andrew

I answered a resounding YES!!!. Absolutely! If Papa and the Patriarch work it out, and they do this through a process guided by God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, who am I to say otherwise? I would pray during the entire process of course. But overall, I’d be thrilled to embrace each other in a unified Church that Christ wants us to have. I don’t even understand our divisions, really. They seem so small and old. I pray for Christ’s Church to be one again. Soon and always.

Thanks be to God,

Steven

 

[Claudius]

dude the Eucharist in the EO Churches is valid. The Catholic Church has stated it is. You may be loving in your harshness, but unless you are correct down to a “t” you cannot be that harsh without causing the discussion to dissolve into polemics.

I never said their Eucharist was not valid. I do take issue with them when they say that Catholic Eucharist is not valid which they do in fact say. They also say our baptisms are invalid as well as our marriages.

If Rome and the Byzantines do finally reconcile, and those here as well as many in Greece who just Hate Catholics with a passion, hate us far more then they will ever love Jesus, do not go along with it, I will say that their Eucharist is invalid. They can go off somewhere with no valid Bishops or priest and have worhsip service to anubus or whoever because Eucharist is the only valid Woship that God accepts.

 

[Claudius]

I do not hate you.

Then why are you acting like it? There was no reason for those people to be out there with those signs when John Paul the Great visited Greece. There is no reason for the monks on Mt. Athos to continue to tell visitors that the painting of a Pope executing members of the Byzantine church actually is a real event because it never happened. Reunion will never happen as long as the Byzantines have hate and only hate in their hearts for Latins. All of the theology has already been worked out which is why MILLIONS of Byzantines have already come back to Rome. The Byzantine Church has even gone so far as to hate them by tracking them down and killing them off. The history of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is one Byzantine offense ofter another. Even today you will not give them their churches back and actively try to prevent them from holding Mass or preaching the Gospel. Then when we look at the Byzantine Catholics in Russia the story gets even worse. Not only will you not give the churches back, you will not even let them build a new church or do a simple thing like buy Gas so they can have liturgy in a heated room.

I can not be the only one who sees huge, unchristian, problems with this kind of treatment.

This is what is holding reunion up, and the fact that the Byzantines still, STILL, call Michael I of Constantinople, who denied the real preasanse of Jesus in the Eucharist and threw the Eucharist on the ground and stepped on it, a saint. He was not a saint. I do not see disgracing the Eucharist and going to Heaven to be at all in line with each other. But the Byzantines will not appologize. Let me ask the Byzantines that are here, Was that right? Don’t give me all the, this happened, and he said this or that. Was this one action right? The thing that is holding up reunion is the Eucharist because the Byzantines will not appologize for this action, make up offense after offense from the Latins that never happened, all in a hate filled attempt to do anything, anything, but reconcile with Rome.

 

[Mickey]

Then why are you acting like it?

The only bitterness I see here is in your posts. Your knowledge of history is seriously skewed and I will not be the one to give you a Church history lesson–your mind is already made up.

But before you continue to accuse and judge people of hate, I would recommend that you pray and meditate on some of your own comments.

sounds like you are on the side of the gates of hell.

Go off into the woods all by yourself and pretend that you have a valid Eucharist.

You probably were one of those people that went to meet John Paul the Great with a “papa persona non grata” or “Pope is Anti-Christ” signs. You were weren’t you? I can tell.

You have passed prejudicial judgement on the Holy Father, calling him the anti-christ before you ever knew anything about him.

You really are a protestant in disguise.

 

[lbdjohnson]

I would hope that there might be an intermediate step pending any reunification. Eastern Catholics accept that Orthodox sacraments and priesthood are valid and in Apostolic succession. Short of a complete reunification, I would hope that Orthodox and Catholics could receive sacraments in each other’s churches. Even now, in Middle Eastern countries, where Christians are a persecuted minority, this is already happening. Receiving sacraments in both Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches could become a reality without the necessity of full reunification.

 

[Hesychios]

I would hope that there might be an intermediate step pending any reunification. Eastern Catholics accept that Orthodox sacraments and priesthood are valid and in Apostolic succession. Short of a complete reunification, I would hope that Orthodox and Catholics could receive sacraments in each other’s churches.

From the Orthodox point of view, receiving each others sacraments (and with hierarchs routinely concelebrating) IS complete unification in Christ.

That’s it, and as far as it goes.

Technically that should only be possible with complete agreement in theology. I can understand why this is possible in the Levant, because eastern Catholic understanding is usually recognized be very similar to Orthodox understanding and conditions in Muslim predominated areas can be pretty oppressive. But this is the exception (I don’t know of any hierarchs officially admitting to this practice, it happens under the radar, so to say) rather than the rule.

Under ordinary circumstances Orthodox would not be communing Catholics at this time

Michael

 

[lbdjohnson]

I realize that under normal circumstances Orthodox and Eastern Catholics do not receive the Eucharist in each other’s churches. I hope and pray that this changes in my life time. My personal belief that complete uniformity of theology is not and probably should not be a criterion for mutual communion. Even Eastern Catholics have theological differences in understanding of original sin and other not always subtle differences from the Latin Catholic church. Since we both accept the validity of both priesthood and the real presence in the Eucharist, I would think that at least being in communion with one another might be possible, without complete reunion. The ideal would be reunification, but realistically that is a long way off, but shared Holy Communion might hopefully happen sooner rather than later.

 

[Hesychios]

Hello lbdjohnson,

I realize that under normal circumstances Orthodox and Eastern Catholics do not receive the Eucharist in each other’s churches. I hope and pray that this changes in my life time. My personal belief that complete uniformity of theology is not and probably should not be a criterion for mutual communion. Even Eastern Catholics have theological differences in understanding of original sin and other not always subtle differences from the Latin Catholic church. Since we both accept the validity of both priesthood and the real presence in the Eucharist, I would think that at least being in communion with one another might be possible, without complete reunion. The ideal would be reunification, but realistically that is a long way off, but shared Holy Communion might hopefully happen sooner rather than later.

I understand where you are coming from, I truly do. Yours is a sincerely hopeful approach, and I appreciate the sentiment.

But I think it is important to define what unification is, and then extend that to define what RE-unification would be. Obviously there is a difference between what you think these things are and what I think these things are.

You are thinking that sharing communion would be a good intermediate step to complete reunification. I am telling you that sharing communion IS complete reunification! That is exactly what the first millennium church was, a communion of alike churches, not one corporate structure in the modern sense.

One eastern Catholic put it well when she stated here recently: “The Catholic Church has always been a communion of local Churches. That’s true even within the Latin Church that it is a communion of local churches, each led by a bishop. We can see it right from the beginning, even in the Bible they are talking about the different apostles going in different directions and establishing local churches which are in communion with the other local churches through a shared faith.”

It was the common faith which was the defining characteristic of the early church, and in mutual recognition of this the local churches shared communion, and when the hierarchs traveled they concelebrated on each other’s altars. The process of consolidation of these churches into one corporate whole began in the west much later, and never extended into the east (except when the Latins were able to temporarily calve off segments of eastern churches). This is not the model of the first millennium church, it is a new thing, even the idea of two different expressions of the same faith is rather new. Therefore it cannot be a “re”-unification since it did not exist before!

I realize that this is difficult for most RC to accept, given certain assumptions that are usually made, but one can actually get a sense for this historical development by reading Catholic sources. One might say “yes, but this organization existed in germ form and developed”. But then you can understand why Orthodox cannot see it as a form of “re” anything. They had no part in this “development” and no experience or memory of it.

If we truly want to RE-unify the church, we must set as our goal the state and condition of the church as it was then. Your “intermediate step” of shared communion is actually the final step, and that only possible after theological agreement.

Blessings,
Michael

 

[jerseygirl12491]

I have been doing a lot of research on differences between eastern orthodox and catholic religions, and so far all i see is misunderstanding between the two being the huge dividing factor. that and the pope’s authority. The teachings are all the same though. As far as doctrine, we believe the same things. I really look forward to our reunion, so we could truly say that we belongto Christ’s original church.

 

[Mickey]

As far as doctrine, we believe the same things.

Your optimism is admirable. But alas, there are many differences. East and West has drifted far apart on many issues. The odd dogma of infallibility in 1870 further widened the schism.

 

[ForeverAdam]

The thing that is holding up reunion is the Eucharist because the Byzantines will not appologize for this action, make up offense after offense from the Latins that never happened, all in a hate filled attempt to do anything, anything, but reconcile with Rome.

Since you’re interested in reunion, you need to get off your soapbox and do something productive for restoring union between our Churches. These hateful diatribes are only further embittering people. Pope Benedict XVI and his curia don’t engage in such bitter re-visiting of past wrongs. Actually, the only ones imbibing such bitterness are militant, amateur Roman Catholic apologists on Internet forums. This ought to cause you to rethink your apologetics style.

God bless,

Adam

 

[lbdjohnson]

I am coming from an Eastern view, since I am an Eastern, Maronite, Catholic and not RC. My prayer for shared Communion is from my heart. Perhaps I used the wrong word, reunification, but rather a recognition that Eastern Catholics are in many ways closer to the Orthodox than to the Latin Church. It is Our Lord’s wish that we all be one in spirit and in love for one another and He is truly with us in the Eucharist. In this spirit of love, we have and always be united. Communion is the common thread that all of us, both the living and the Faithful Departed, meet with our Lord. Though we may be separated in many ways, this separation is of man’s devising and finite. God’s love is Eternal and unites us forever. Sharing Communion truly unites us in the most important way. Next to Our Lord’s real presence, the theological and organizational differences fade from importance. For this reason, I believe that we should share Communion with each other and with Our Lord, and leave all the detailed differences to be settled, when and if God wills it. The divisions and disputations are of minor importance, when compared with God’s love and command that we love the lord with all of our being and love our neighbor as ourselves. Let us commune with one another in love, and leave the rest of it to God.

 

[Mickey]

The divisions and disputations are of minor importance

The Churches have many differences and there is only one truth. The Holy Orthodox Church cannot compromise. St Mark of Ephesus pray for us.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I thought this thread had died out. Its a shame that it did not. It is also a shame that people want to continue a feud that is nearly 1000 years old.

The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and the Orthodox Churches should never have have been divided and form members of these 2 branch of Christ Church to continue this fight is sad. We all should be in daily prayer for the reunification of the Orthodox with the The Latin Rite of the Church. I just pray that the leaders one both sides are wiser than those on this forum that continue to say thing like Holy this Church or Holy that church can not compromise and you will have to change this or that or no unity will happen.
When it comes to Dogmatic truths there can be no compromise, however on how we apply these truths can be worked out.

With that said going all the way back to the poll that started this thread I will follow as the Pope leads for he can not lead me astray. I pray that both Catholic and Orthodox will all do was the Bishops leads us.

 

[Hesychios]

…I just pray that the leaders one both sides are wiser than those on this forum that continue to say thing like Holy this Church or Holy that church can not compromise and you will have to change this or that or no unity will happen.

What ever I have stated on the subject has been honest and declared without malice.

We all desire unity, it is clear from every post. The point is that we are not agreed on the difinition of unity. When we leave this important point out of the discussion we do ourselves and others a great disservice.

For the record, Holy Orthodoxy (Holy this and that, I guess) makes no demands upon the church under the Pope. The Orthodox church is not trying to take over and change your practices or beliefs. You are quite free to carry on as you have been. But if that is how it is going to be there will be no shared communion.

The Orthodox churches are very clear about this: Everyone who wishes to partake of the Holy Eucharist must believe the Orthodox Faith, fast properly and pray, and have a recent verifiable confession. Our church demands not one thing more of the Roman Catholic church than it demands of itself and it’s own people. This is the same standard for everyone applied equally, there are no free rides.

When it comes to Dogmatic truths there can be no compromise, however on how we apply these truths can be worked out.

I am almost reluctant to state that this sounds contrary to what you stated in the lines just preceeding.

I pray that both Catholic and Orthodox will all do was the Bishops leads us.

I trust my bishop.

But I am sure you would agree with me that Orthodox bishops are fallible.

Michael

 

[AlegreFe]

This poll is incomplete. There needs to be another answer. I did not answer any of those.

How you stated your poll is exactly right; “Would you accept all the terms of reunification even if it meant changes in your particular Church?”
The Catholic Church is not my Church. It is the Church of Jesus Christ. If there is ever any unity the other churches who unite with the Catholic Church will have to change to what the Catholic Church believes & teaches. Otherwise the Catholic Church will not accept that “church” or the people in that church if they do not conform to the Church’s teachings.

My correct answer would be;
There will never be any changes in Doctrine in the Catholic Church but I will happily accept any convert to the Catholic Church so long as they believe and live out the Catholic faith.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

We need to organise ourselves so that Easter is celebrated on the same day for Catholics and Orthodox.

If we can’t so something simple like that, then there is no hope for anything else.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Hesychios;3579981]What ever I have stated on the subject has been honest and declared without malice.

We all desire unity, it is clear from every post. The point is that we are not agreed on the difinition of unity. When we leave this important point out of the discussion we do ourselves and others a great disservice.

Not that I know a great deal about Orthodox,but If the Churches of the Eastern rite of the Catholic Church can live in union with the western rite and vice a versa, and from what I do know of eastern Catholic and Orthodox they mirror one anther on most every point except for the issue of Papal authority.

For the record, Holy Orthodoxy (Holy this and that, I guess) makes no demands upon the church under the Pope. The Orthodox church is not trying to take over and change your practices or beliefs. You are quite free to carry on as you have been. But if that is how it is going to be there will be no shared communion.

To my knowledge no one is trying to take and change anyone’s church or beliefs. They only thing I know of again is that Orthodox fail to give the proper Authority to the Seat of Peter.

The Orthodox churches are very clear about this: Everyone who wishes to partake of the Holy Eucharist must believe the Orthodox Faith, fast properly and pray, and have a recent verifiable confession. Our church demands not one thing more of the Roman Catholic church than it demands of itself and it’s own people. This is the same standard for everyone applied equally, there are no free rides. I am almost reluctant to state that this sounds contrary to what you stated in the lines just preceeding.

As far I know both Catholic and Orthodox hold that the Eucharist is valid in both. and that members are allowed to receive if there is not a Church or priest from there Faith available such as within traveling distance or in case other death.

I trust my bishop.

But I am sure you would agree with me that Orthodox bishops are fallible.

All men are fallible. The issue of Papal infallibility is one that I would have to leave to one better educated than I.

now I have to ask are you a person of some authority within the Orthodox Churches. As you make statements that would led one to believe that you are. Such as Orthodox will not do this and for unity you must do this. The Question was if your Bishops decreed union between Orthodox and Catholic would you fallow? I would also ask if not what would you do? there Is really no need to get in to discussion on what the differences are as unless one of us here are in a position to make things happen one way or the other that is pointless.

Michael