Question for Catholics and Protestants - Definition of "Works"?

[curious35]

Growing up Baptist, I never heard that any other Christian group thouht they could earn/work/serve their way to heaven, but just that Jesus expected us to respond to salv ation with changes inward and outward. The examples over & over again of His asking people to do an act after a miracle of His shows that we are to respond. Of course, these responses are of our own free will as reborn believers/saints, and the works are not any more an absolute requirement for salvation than actually being baptised. Once you’re saved, that’s it, no matter what you or any mortal says or does thereafter. Period.

“An’ dat’s da name a’ dat tune!”

 

[BlestOne]

The way I always describe it to my Protestant friends that insist that Catholics think there is some almighty scorecard in heaven (or at the Vatican for the conspiracy theorists) that think we have to “earn points” for our salvation is:

• God gives us the grace required to believe, we come to believe (have faith) and are thus moved to live as Christ would want us to (Christ like emulation) by doing for others as Christ would have done (being Christ to others, or works) whether it be actual deeds, thoughts or prayers for others. There is no scorecard, no checklist to salvation, no one time commitment, it is a lifelong commitment to living the way God wants of his children. The more we live this (Christlike) life, the more grace we are given to continue on that path.

When we help others in thought prayer or deed, it is just like an extention of Christ. We do not do “works” to add “points” to a scorecard or check off a list for salvation. We do not sin because we know we can go to confession and be forgiven… we are humans trying to live up to a standard that is impossible without the grace of God.*

 

[ALLFORHIM]

The way I always describe it to my Protestant friends that insist that Catholics think there is some almighty scorecard in heaven (or at the Vatican for the conspiracy theorists) that think we have to “earn points” for our salvation is:

• God gives us the grace required to believe, we come to believe (have faith) and are thus moved to live as Christ would want us to (Christ like emulation) by doing for others as Christ would have done (being Christ to others, or works) whether it be actual deeds, thoughts or prayers for others. There is no scorecard, no checklist to salvation, no one time commitment, it is a lifelong commitment to living the way God wants of his children. The more we live this (Christlike) life, the more grace we are given to continue on that path.

When we help others in thought prayer or deed, it is just like an extention of Christ. We do not do “works” to add “points” to a scorecard or check off a list for salvation. We do not sin because we know we can go to confession and be forgiven… we are humans trying to live up to a standard that is impossible without the grace of God.*

Hi,
While I agree with you, I think something is getting lost when taught in CCD or catholic schools. When I speak with the average catholic(my husband being one)they all have the idea that there is a scoreboard(so to speak) in heaven. If the CC doesn not believe this, then how is it catholic kids believe this and take this belief with them into adulthood?
Something is being lost in translation.

 

[JoeyWarren]

The way I always describe it to my Protestant friends that insist that Catholics think **there is some almighty scorecard in heaven **(or at the Vatican for the conspiracy theorists) that think we have to “earn points” for our salvation is:…

Is there a scorecard of some sort? Well Revelations tends to indicate that there is one of sorts…

Originally posted by John: Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the **dead were judged **out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

To hazard a guess, there is a book for each one of us, and our works whether they be good or bad are written upon these books and the difference between the good and bad determines whether our name appears in the book of life. What I do know is that thru out the Book of Revelation, Jesus stresses “Works”

 

[JoeyWarren]

Works in Revelation:

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Rev 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars;** I know thy works**, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Grace in Revelations:

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: **Grace **be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Rev 22:21 The** grace **of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Faith in Revelations:

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the **faithful **witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Rev 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the **faithful **and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the **faith **of Jesus.

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called **Faithful **and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

 

[Syele]

our works whether they be good or bad are written upon these books and *the difference between the good and bad determines whether our name appears in the book of life. *What I do know is that thru out the Book of Revelation, Jesus stresses “Works”

Well for anyone wondering, here is the sort of thing that convinces protestants that Catholics are trying to “work their way to heaven.”

Protestants agree that works are important… we will be rewarded for them in Heaven and they are also what sets us apart from non-christians. Why would and non-christian want to be a Christian if they can see no difference in us from everyone else?

The thief on the cross would NOT have had the good outweighing the bad. This is not what determines if we are saved or not.

 

[Pug]

To hazard a guess, there is a book for each one of us, and our works whether they be good or bad are written upon these books and the difference between the good and bad determines whether our name appears in the book of life.

There is a book of life, but I believe you should reconsider your description here. Catholic doctrine is not compatible with the idea that there are two lists so that whichever is longer determines your fate. Take a man who lives for a long time doing lots of charity and service. Then, at age 80 he commits adultery knowingly. Even if there were 200000 things on the one list and only adultery on the other list, according to Catholic teaching, the 200000 will not save the man. Only the grace of God can make him alive in Christ again.

 

[Bishopite]

Well for anyone wondering, here is the sort of thing that convinces protestants that Catholics are trying to “work their way to heaven.”

Protestants agree that works are important… we will be rewarded for them in Heaven and they are also what sets us apart from non-christians. Why would and non-christian want to be a Christian if they can see no difference in us from everyone else?

The thief on the cross would NOT have had the good outweighing the bad. This is not what determines if we are saved or not.

JoeyWarren may just not have picked the correct words, and I’ll give him the benefit of doubt that he does know what Catholicism teaches. Catholicism does NOT teach we are saved by our personal works or that in the end God weighs the good vs the bad that we do like a scale. Those ideas are simply NOT what the Church teaches. The council of Orange 529 AD made several canons against Pelagianism which condemned this idea. God gives us the grace and faith to do the works which we do, we don’t weigh the good with the bad.

For a simplistic version of what are “works” we look to Eph 2:8-10. Verse 8-9 say that we are saved by God’s grace through faith and not of our own personal works.
Verse 10 however says we were created to do good works
so here we have “works” in two different senerios, one of personal works that don’t save, and other “works” God for which God created us.
The verse 10 “works” are the same works mentioned in Gal 5:6…faith working through love and Phil 2:12…“work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” Again, these works are those done under Gods grace i.e., Eph 2:10.

Matthew 25:34-40 reads…
"Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’

Notice here the righteous have done things, they have done works of mercy. Think of Gal 5:6…“faith working through love”

37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you,** whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me"**

Here Jesus is declaring what the righteous “did” for the least brothers and what they “did” for me [Jesus]. What the righteous have “done” are works under God’s grace, done in charity [love]; we know this because these righteous have done these things without wanting anything in return. What is true love? It is doing something for another without wanting anything in return. (1 Cor 13:5) And love does not seek its own (1 Cor 13:3).

Matthew 25:41-46 reads…
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Notice the comparison. Verses 34-40 the righteous did works under grace with love (Gal 5:6)

Notice verses 41-46 those condemned did works for their own furtherment, essentially for themselves NOT for Christ, so that they did good works, just NOT good works under God’s grace, or to the glory of Christ. Their works were personal works done to glorify themselves instead of glorifying God alone.

 

[MariaG]

Maybe the role ‘penance’ plays in Catholicism gives people the false impression that Catholics are taught they need to earn thier own salvation in part by works and their own suffering? Not too many catholics are out evangelizing their faith, so these misconceptions have little rebuttal.

Maybe. And I do agree that Catholics Christians do not evangelize like many non-Catholic Christians do. But part of that is because most Catholics believe that there are clear jobs for all. Most do not believe it is their job to “teach” the gospel. They are supposed to live it and be an example of Christian Charity, but priests are supposed to do the teaching of other adults.

Most Catholics tend to believe that if they are not called to Holy Orders, their job is to “preach the gospel always, and when necessary, use words”. Unfortunately, many have the first part down, but forget to exercise the second when necessary.

This then tends to reinforce the mistaken belief that Catholics are trying to “earn” their way to heaven due to “good works” since many Catholics practice a Mother Teresa style of Evangelization. (Not as well or as devoted as her, but her “style” non the less.)

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Bishopite]

**Council of Orange 529 AD.

CANON 18. That grace is not preceded by merit. Recompense is due to good works if they are performed; but grace, to which we have no claim, precedes them, to enable them to be done.

**
CANON 19. That a man can be saved only when God shows mercy. Human nature, even though it remained in that sound state in which it was created, could be no means save itself, without the assistance of the Creator; hence since man cannot safe- guard his salvation without the grace of God, which is a gift, how will he be able to restore what he has lost without the grace of God?

CANON 20. That a man can do no good without God. God does much that is good in a man that the man does not do; but a man does nothing good for which God is not responsible, so as to let him do it.

 

[Syele]

JoeyWarren may just not have picked the correct words, and I’ll give him the benefit of doubt that he does know what Catholicism teaches. Catholicism does NOT teach we are saved by our personal works or that in the end God weighs the good vs the bad that we do like a scale. Those ideas are simply NOT what the Church teaches. The council of Orange 529 AD made several canons against Pelagianism which condemned this idea. God gives us the grace and faith to do the works which we do, we don’t weigh the good with the bad.
.

I know it’s not what Catholicism teaches, you know it and Joey probably knows it too. My point is that Catholics make statements like Joeys and then can’t figure out why some Protestants think it is what Catholocism teaches.

 

[Bishopite]

I know it’s not what Catholicism teaches, you know it and Joey probably knows it too. My point is that Catholics make statements like Joeys and then can’t figure out why some Protestants think it is what Catholocism teaches.

Ah…ok I see your point. Yes that can be a problem.

 

[jonk]

Hi,
While I agree with you, I think something is getting lost when taught in CCD or catholic schools. When I speak with the average catholic(my husband being one)they all have the idea that there is a scoreboard(so to speak) in heaven. If the CC doesn not believe this, then how is it catholic kids believe this and take this belief with them into adulthood?
Something is being lost in translation.

It’s poor catechesis pure and simple. The majority of Catholics probably know less about what the Church teaches than you as a Protestant do. I know many “mainline” Protestants who believe in something like works-based salvation too, unfortunately.

I think Catholics and Protestants should shout from the rooftops together: “We are saved by grace!” so that everybody gets the message.

 

[BlestOne]

Hi,
While I agree with you, I think something is getting lost when taught in CCD or catholic schools. When I speak with the average catholic(my husband being one)they all have the idea that there is a scoreboard(so to speak) in heaven. If the CC doesn not believe this, then how is it catholic kids believe this and take this belief with them into adulthood?
Something is being lost in translation.

I think part of the problem is that in my generation (probably the same as your husband’s) we were not well catechised. It is a shame, but after adulthood we are responsible for our own education. To be a true “good” Christian of any sort, your education never ends. The more we can learn, the more we can try to live a Christ like life… Just my humble opinion.

 

[BlestOne]

Hi,
While I agree with you, I think something is getting lost when taught in CCD or catholic schools. When I speak with the average catholic(my husband being one)they all have the idea that there is a scoreboard(so to speak) in heaven. If the CC doesn not believe this, then how is it catholic kids believe this and take this belief with them into adulthood?
Something is being lost in translation.

I think part of the problem is that in my generation (probably the same as your husband’s) we were not well catechised. It is a shame, but after adulthood we are responsible for our own education. To be a true “good” Christian of any sort, your education never ends. The more we can learn, the more we can try to live a Christ like life… Just my humble opinion.

 

[JoeyWarren]

I do know what the Catholic church teaches.

What I pointed out about in Revelations is for those hyper-literalist Protestants that exist.

Yes my choice of words might not have been the best…

 

[Bishopite]

I do know what the Catholic church teaches.

What I pointed out about in Revelations is for those hyper-literalist Protestants that exist.

Yes my choice of words might not have been the best…

We all look for the best choices of words which are hard to come by at times.

 

[JoeyWarren]

The thief on the cross would NOT have had the good outweighing the bad.

Do you know the thief’s complete history? Is it possible he was a thief for only a day and the majority of his life was spent as a perfect God fearing man?