Question for Catholics: SInner's Prayer and Altar calls

[jeannetherese]

My first thought when sinner’s prayer was mentioned was the tax collector’s prayer in Lk 18 v. 13, “Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner”. prayer often said in a Catholic Novena.

This is what I thought of as well and immediately thought: That is Catholic!

As one of my Catechists used to say: “We are all recovering sinners and tomorrow we’ll be recovering sinners again.”

I didn’t vote in the poll as the sinner’s prayer seems to be understood differently in the OP and I did not want to cause confusion when the OP sorted throughthe poll results.

May God bless all who visit our thread.
Amen.

 

[Ron_in_minden]

Would not the altar call and the sinners prayer be considered “traditions of men”? And would not the sinners prayer be considered one of those “rote” type prayers?

 

[spedteacherita]

Would not the altar call and the sinners prayer be considered traditions of men? And would not the sinners prayer be considered one of those “rote” type prayers?

Hi, Ron. As a Lutheran we don’t have this prayer so I’m not saying this out of any sense of protection toward the prayer itself. This said, The Sinners Prayer can take varieties of forms - there is not one prayer written out for all to use. I’ve heard it done in online churches and in local churches and I would have to say that while the substance is still there it does not have the exact words written for someone to say if they’re converting to a fellowship that would espouse this type of conversion prayer - just like any of our prayers that we use every Sunday in our liturgical services.

Hope that helps

Rita

 

[JonNC]

=slh3016;12915016]Yes, in many Protestant denominations, especially Southern Baptist, reciting a sinner’s prayer is what is taught in Sunday School and encouraged at revivals. Therefore, it is doctrinal. I’ve been in many a room where the Pastor led someone in reciting it. There’s even an ABC formula:

A = Admit your a sinner
B = Believe that Jesus is God’s Son
C = Confess and your sins

Are you sure its not in scripture?
A = “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”
B = " For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life."
C = “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

So, the prayer goes something like this in Sunday School, “God, I admit that I am a sinner in need of a savior. I believe that Jesus is Your Son who died in my place. I confess my sins and turn away from them. Thank you for saving me. Amen.” Voila! You’re saved!

It isn’t the prayer, it is the conclusion drawn, that saying a prayer saves one.

Nevermind that this prayer is not in the Bible, which they claim is the only rule of faith That’s why I mentioned SS.

While there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that prayer, I certainly don’t believe it’s sufficient, especially for someone who lacks proper catechesis.

On this we agree.

Yes, you’re right, it is a grace, but we still have to submit to it. Many, many, many evangelical Christians don’t believe in the necessity of baptism. My dad, for instance, believes he can watch a Billy Graham crusade or Joel Osteen from the comfort of his Lazy Boy, recite some prayer, be saved, and go about his merry way never putting a foot in the door of a church building.

Again, agreed.

Jon

 

[slh3016]

Are you sure its not in scripture?
A = “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”
B = " For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life."
C = “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

It isn’t the prayer, it is the conclusion drawn, that saying a prayer saves one.

Yes, it could probably be more accurately stated than what I did, but, to be fair, though, while the precepts of the ABC formula can be found, there is not a place in Scripture that says, “Recite this prayer and your sins will be forgiven” or “Repeat after me and you’ll be saved”, etc. It’s misleading, at best.

Again, I’ve seen it firsthand and experienced it. I’m not saying that the Holy Spirit is not truly working, heaven forbid, but there is a problem when pulpit preachers and revivalist preachers use these methods to promote themselves for their next gig. They’ll hurry people through the prayer to add them to the number of those who “got saved” during their event and many times, those who “got saved” are not followed through properly with the instruction.

Seven years ago, my grandfather, who was an alcoholic, among other things, his entire life died. I was devastated because, to my knowledge, he did not have a relationship with Jesus. He had never lived a God-fearing life AT ALL. I was in anguish. Then my mom, who is not even a Christian, comes beside me at the funeral home and says, “I just thought I’d let you know this so you’d feel better but your uncle Greg just told me that your grandpa told him once that he got saved when he was 12 years old. So, now you don’t have to worry about this anymore.” Did I feel better? NO!!!

Now, I’m not claiming to be the judge over his soul and I pray fervently that in his final moments, he was met with the power of God. I pray this, I really do. I’m not judging his soul at all. What I feel upset about is the fact that I was surrounded by so many family members who believed that one’s life did not have to show any evidence of a conversion. To them, it was enough that at one moment, someone “got saved”. They believe that’s all you have to do.

So, yes, altar calls and sinner’s prayers can be a great starting point for someone’s faith journey, such as myself who went forward during a revival, BUT, again, when not followed by proper instruction/catechesis, they provide a false sense of security.

 

[slh3016]

The sinners prayer is like the Act of Contrition without absolution. And I disagree with those who say that these so- called “altar calls” (what altar?) aren’t harmful. Often the victim is told that once you do this, you will be saved forever. They can give a false assurance one’s salvation.

This isn’t just some Catholic ranting against things non- Catholic either. Many Protestants would agree with this.

 

[CatholicSheila]

This is a hard one. I can honestly say that if I could pick multiple options I would. Depending on the circumstances I think the sinners prayer and altar calls can be any of the following:

Protestant gimmick
A profound spiritual awakening
An emotional experience with little substance
Unbiblical way of claiming to come to know Christ
A potential starting point for a deeper spiritual journey

In some cases, it could be multiple at once. For me, all 5 are true to some extent. My experience of the sinners prayer and altar calls happened in the Assemblies of God. I grew up with them. I recall in great detail two altar call experiences of my own, although I’ve got a niggling feeling there was a third there somewhere.

Emotional experience with little substance - Rather than a person seriously considering whether or not they can accept the tenets of the faith they’re encouraged to make a decision based on ‘feeling’. Spur of the moment feelings generally aren’t something to base life long decisions on. What it means is that when the emotion wears off, the decision suddenly loses it’s power. It’s not longer a life changing moment but just “something I did once”. I think this is more likely to be the case when these altar calls are not backed up with further teaching regarding the faith.

Protestant gimmick - Certainly in some cases the church is just interested in saying “100 people accepted Christ last night”. In some cases they follow do it up with instruction (not such a gimmick). In many others they let those people just walk out of the church afterwards firm in the knowledge they’ve “saved” them. I think “emotional experience with little substance” and this are very firmly tied up with each other. When this is present, then it is much more likely to just be an emotional experience with little substance.

Unbiblical way of claiming to come to know Christ - I think this links into the ‘emotional experience with little substance’ as well. If the experience isn’t followed up, people may think they “know” Christ. Perhaps they’ve met Christ through that experience, but do they really “know” Christ? I wouldn’t claim to know anyone just by meeting them once - I’d know then in a very casual sense in that in the future I might recognise them but certainly I wouldn’t know them in any substantial way.

A potential starting point for a deeper spiritual journey - Previous point stated, it can be the start of getting to know Christ. If a person uses that as a starting point, then… well, it’s a starting point. I know through my own testimony that the altar calls I’ve gone through did give me a moment in time where I said “ok, I’m going to do this”. In hindsight I think I already had made that decision but because I was raised in the idea that you had to have a moment in time where you actually said “yes, right now”, it was very important that I have this. It gave me a moment where I had to start changing my behaviour. Where I gave myself permission to do so.

A profound spiritual awakening - Again, personal experience. The second altar call I responded to (there was about 5 years between them) could be classed as a "profound spiritual awakening. I already knew about the spiritual. I already knew about God. I just trusted him about as far as I could throw him. I didn’t at all. It was a spiritual awakening in that it was at that time I realised (Or was convinced more) that I could actually trust God. It wouldn’t backfire. He wouldn’t fail me. It was a huge spiritual realisation. Whether that is really a spiritual awakening I don’t know, but I think it could fit in this category.

I don’t like altar calls or the sinners prayer these days. I don’t really agree with them and I would not be comfortable in a church that used them. I do think they are used as gimmicks and rely on emotions far too much. That said, my God is a very clever God. He can, and he does, use both for good. If someone does genuinely approaches him with the sinners prayer, at an altar call, he isn’t going to reject them and say “nope, sorry. You’ve approached me the wrong way”. He is going to use it as completely as he possibly can to get that person on the right page with him and to start a relationship with him. Every single time.

So yeah, they’re all true. Depending on the experience. Depending on the Church. Depending on the person.

 

[Tommy999]

This is a hard one. I can honestly say that if I could pick multiple options I would. Depending on the circumstances I think the sinners prayer and altar calls can be any of the following:

Protestant gimmick
A profound spiritual awakening
An emotional experience with little substance
Unbiblical way of claiming to come to know Christ
A potential starting point for a deeper spiritual journey

In some cases, it could be multiple at once. For me, all 5 are true to some extent. My experience of the sinners prayer and altar calls happened in the Assemblies of God. I grew up with them. I recall in great detail two altar call experiences of my own, although I’ve got a niggling feeling there was a third there somewhere.

Emotional experience with little substance - Rather than a person seriously considering whether or not they can accept the tenets of the faith they’re encouraged to make a decision based on ‘feeling’. Spur of the moment feelings generally aren’t something to base life long decisions on. What it means is that when the emotion wears off, the decision suddenly loses it’s power. It’s not longer a life changing moment but just “something I did once”. I think this is more likely to be the case when these altar calls are not backed up with further teaching regarding the faith.

Protestant gimmick - Certainly in some cases the church is just interested in saying “100 people accepted Christ last night”. In some cases they follow do it up with instruction (not such a gimmick). In many others they let those people just walk out of the church afterwards firm in the knowledge they’ve “saved” them. I think “emotional experience with little substance” and this are very firmly tied up with each other. When this is present, then it is much more likely to just be an emotional experience with little substance.

Unbiblical way of claiming to come to know Christ - I think this links into the ‘emotional experience with little substance’ as well. If the experience isn’t followed up, people may think they “know” Christ. Perhaps they’ve met Christ through that experience, but do they really “know” Christ? I wouldn’t claim to know anyone just by meeting them once - I’d know then in a very casual sense in that in the future I might recognise them but certainly I wouldn’t know them in any substantial way.

A potential starting point for a deeper spiritual journey - Previous point stated, it can be the start of getting to know Christ. If a person uses that as a starting point, then… well, it’s a starting point. I know through my own testimony that the altar calls I’ve gone through did give me a moment in time where I said “ok, I’m going to do this”. In hindsight I think I already had made that decision but because I was raised in the idea that you had to have a moment in time where you actually said “yes, right now”, it was very important that I have this. It gave me a moment where I had to start changing my behaviour. Where I gave myself permission to do so.

A profound spiritual awakening - Again, personal experience. The second altar call I responded to (there was about 5 years between them) could be classed as a "profound spiritual awakening. I already knew about the spiritual. I already knew about God. I just trusted him about as far as I could throw him. I didn’t at all. It was a spiritual awakening in that it was at that time I realised (Or was convinced more) that I could actually trust God. It wouldn’t backfire. He wouldn’t fail me. It was a huge spiritual realisation. Whether that is really a spiritual awakening I don’t know, but I think it could fit in this category.

I don’t like altar calls or the sinners prayer these days. I don’t really agree with them and I would not be comfortable in a church that used them. I do think they are used as gimmicks and rely on emotions far too much. That said, my God is a very clever God. He can, and he does, use both for good. If someone does genuinely approaches him with the sinners prayer, at an altar call, he isn’t going to reject them and say “nope, sorry. You’ve approached me the wrong way”. He is going to use it as completely as he possibly can to get that person on the right page with him and to start a relationship with him. Every single time.

So yeah, they’re all true. Depending on the experience. Depending on the Church. Depending on the person.

Very well stated, CatholicSheila. I agree totally with your assessment of the different options and why each one could possibly apply, depending on the church, the person, and the experience.

 

[johnnyc176]

I would say a gimmick on par with the ‘if you died right now are you assured of your salvation’ gimmick.

 

[Tommy999]

Yes, it could probably be more accurately stated than what I did, but, to be fair, though, while the precepts of the ABC formula can be found, there is not a place in Scripture that says, “Recite this prayer and your sins will be forgiven” or “Repeat after me and you’ll be saved”, etc. It’s misleading, at best.

Again, I’ve seen it firsthand and experienced it. I’m not saying that the Holy Spirit is not truly working, heaven forbid, but there is a problem when pulpit preachers and revivalist preachers use these methods to promote themselves for their next gig. They’ll hurry people through the prayer to add them to the number of those who “got saved” during their event and many times, those who “got saved” are not followed through properly with the instruction.

Seven years ago, my grandfather, who was an alcoholic, among other things, his entire life died. I was devastated because, to my knowledge, he did not have a relationship with Jesus. He had never lived a God-fearing life AT ALL. I was in anguish. Then my mom, who is not even a Christian, comes beside me at the funeral home and says, “I just thought I’d let you know this so you’d feel better but your uncle Greg just told me that your grandpa told him once that he got saved when he was 12 years old. So, now you don’t have to worry about this anymore.” Did I feel better? NO!!!

Now, I’m not claiming to be the judge over his soul and I pray fervently that in his final moments, he was met with the power of God. I pray this, I really do. I’m not judging his soul at all. What I feel upset about is the fact that I was surrounded by so many family members who believed that one’s life did not have to show any evidence of a conversion. To them, it was enough that at one moment, someone “got saved”. They believe that’s all you have to do.

So, yes, altar calls and sinner’s prayers can be a great starting point for someone’s faith journey, such as myself who went forward during a revival, BUT, again, when not followed by proper instruction/catechesis, they provide a false sense of security.

I am in agreement with the bolded, slh3016. Follow up and growing in the faith after the altar call experience is critical. Those who mean business will want to know more about the Christian faith and grow in Christ. For those who made a purely emotional decision, I assume they will fall away like the seed that was planted on rocky ground in the Parable of the Sower in Mark 4:15-17.

At my church, there are people who are trained to follow up with any person who makes a public decision for Christ to help mentor the person, direct them to appropriate instruction opportunities and help answer any questions they have about being a Christian and living the Christian life. They make a commitment to disciple that person in the faith.

I am very sorry to hear about your grandfather. His situation sounds very tragic, as I understand it.

I am not a proponent of the "once saved always saved’ philosophy, which it sounds like maybe he was. I agree that philosophy is dangerous and can lead someone into a false sense of eternal security. However, that doesn’t necessarily mean that he would’ve led a more godly life otherwise, but I understand your point and it is a valid one.

However, I also believe that – deep down – most people will know that their relationship with Christ is not as it should be in the same way that an obese person knows he or she is overweight when they look into the mirror, unless their sense of judgment was so skewed by substance abuse or some other factor.

I also hope and pray that God has taken mercy on your grandfather, just like I pray for mercy for all of us when the time comes for us to leave this world.

 

[JustaServant]

Here’s a post I made over a year ago, I hope it helps.

A little history on the “altar call”:
Charles Grandison Finney (1792-1875) was a minister, a lecturer, a professor, and a traveling revivalist who held heretical views on the Atonment. He invented the practice which he called the Anxious Seat, and developed a theological system around it. Finney was straightforward about his purpose for this technique and wrote the following comment near the end of his life:

“The church has always felt it necessary to have something of this kind to answer this very purpose. In the days of the apostles, baptism answered this purpose. The gospel was preached to the people, and then all those who were willing to be on the side of Christ, were called out to be baptized.** It held the place that the anxious seat does now as a public manifestation of their determination to be Christians”**

That underlined statement by Finney is significant.
He intended the anxious seat/invitation/sinner’s prayer to replace Baptism. Which it has in evangelical/fundamentalist churches. So, in a sense, it is a ‘Baptist sacrament’ in the embryonic sense of the word, but they (Baptists) do not look at it that way. They have taken the supernatual elements (which Episcopals agree with as well) away from the traditional Sacraments and created thier own “sacrament” they insist is supernatural, though they deny this reality to Sacramental christians.
The Anxious Seat was considered to be a psychological technique that manipulated people to make a premature profession of faith. It was considered to be an emotional conversion influenced by the preachers’ magnetism.
The system that Finney admitted had replaced biblical baptism, is the nucleus for the popular plan of salvation that was made normative in the twentieth century.
It was popularized by Dwight L. Moody. It was standardized by Billy Graham.
Finney’s opponants were from his side of the Tiber. And they had good reason to be concerned. These names might mean nothing to Catholic scholars, but they should to Reformed Protestants.They included:
John Humphrey Noyes (1811–1886)
George W. Gale (1789–1861)
Lyman Beecher (1775–1863)
Asahel Nettleton (1738–1844)
Arthur (1786–1865) and Lewis (1788–1873) Tappan
Asa Mahan (18??–1889)
Charles Haddon Spurgeon (1834 –1892)
David Martin Lloyd-Jones.
Ian Murray’s “Revival & Revivalism” (which used to be in my library) is a wonderful resource book looking the damage Finney’s teachings have done to American Protestantism. The ‘invitation’, ‘sinner’s prayer’ are innovations that is not even compatable with conservative Reformed principals, let alone Catholicism.

 

[JustaServant]

Want a “sinners prayer”?
Try this on for size:
“O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of thy mercy”.
Given by the Blessed Mother at Fatima.

Who…I believe…outranks Charles Finney.

 

[estesbob]

I think they’re very very poor substitution for the Sacrament of confession and the Eucharist
When I go to the altar I am able to hold our Lord’s precious body and my hands and follow his admonition to consume it . I cannot imagine a closer relationship with Jesus than this.

 

[Tommy999]

I think they’re very very poor substitution for the Sacrament of confession and the Eucharist
When I go to the altar I am able to hold our Lord’s precious body and my hands and follow his admonition to consume it . I cannot imagine a closer relationship with Jesus than this.

While I have never been Catholic, I highly suspect that there are Catholics who take the Eucharist weekly for whom it is just another ritualistic thing they do, just as I assume that there are those – like yourself – who consider the sacrament as sacred communion with Christ. I would like to think the latter outnumber the former, but I would bet my house (and it’s nearly paid off, by the way) that not all Catholics view it the same as you do.

Along the same lines, don’t you think there are Protestants for whom the Sinner’s Prayer and Altar Call are more than just an emotional gimmick and where a person can have an authentic encounter with Christ? Sure, people can do it for the wrong reasons, but they can also do it for the right ones.

 

[estesbob]

While I have never been Catholic, I highly suspect that there are Catholics who take the Eucharist weekly for whom it is just another ritualistic thing they do, just as I assume that there are those – like yourself – who consider the sacrament as sacred communion with Christ. I would like to think the latter outnumber the former, but I would bet my house (and it’s nearly paid off, by the way) that not all Catholics view it the same as you do.

Along the same lines, don’t you think there are Protestants for whom the Sinner’s Prayer and Altar Call are more than just an emotional gimmick and where a person can have an authentic encounter with Christ? Sure, people can do it for the wrong reasons, but they can also do it for the right ones.

Whether all Catholics revere the Eucharist much as we should is totally irrelevant. The point is our separated bretheren have traded the ability to obey our Lord’s instructions in John six for emotional highs and man-made prayers . Nothing, absolutely nothing that can be more awesome than holding the creator of universe in your hands and then consuming his body

 

[Tommy999]

Whether all Catholics revere the Eucharist much as we should is totally irrelevant. The point is our separated bretheren have traded the ability to obey our Lord’s instructions in John six for emotional highs and man-made prayers . Nothing, absolutely nothing that can be more awesome than holding the creator of universe in your hands and then consuming his body

With all due respect, Bob, I don’t think it is irrelevant at all. I think you confuse evangelization with man-made abuses of it.

In my experience with evangelicalism, I think a strong point is the evangelization message, as in Rev Billy Graham’s messages at crusades. However, there also is a need of sacramentalization within the evangelical Protestant world, in my opinion. Evangelical Protestants are weaker in this area and need to get stronger.

The Catholic Church is strong in the area of sacraments and evangelical Protestants could learn from it in this area, in my opinion.

On the other hand, my observation is that there are many Catholics who have been sacramentalized but not evangelized. Many Catholics fit into this category, I would venture to guess.

And I am not alone in that belief. Are you familiar with Fr. Dwight Longenecker? He seems to think so, too.

fisheaters.com/forums/index.php?topic=3461591.0

 

[johnnyc176]

While I have never been Catholic, I highly suspect that there are Catholics who take the Eucharist weekly for whom it is just another ritualistic thing they do, just as I assume that there are those – like yourself – who consider the sacrament as sacred communion with Christ. I would like to think the latter outnumber the former, but I would bet my house (and it’s nearly paid off, by the way) that not all Catholics view it the same as you do.

Along the same lines, don’t you think there are Protestants for whom the Sinner’s Prayer and Altar Call are more than just an emotional gimmick and where a person can have an authentic encounter with Christ? Sure, people can do it for the wrong reasons, but they can also do it for the right ones.

You posted a choice of answers to your question and asked for comments on a protestant practice that does not align with Catholic teaching. You seem surprised that on a Catholic forum you would get comments saying so. Apparently there was more intent on your part in posting the poll then just asking for comments.

 

[Tommy999]

You posted a choice of answers to your question and asked for comments on a protestant practice that does not align with Catholic teaching. You seem surprised that on a Catholic forum you would get comments saying so. Apparently there was more intent on your part in posting the poll then just asking for comments.

Hi johnnyc176,
I was interested in the opinions of Catholics on this topic and I think I got my answer. I always respect other people’s beliefs and opinions, especially when they are made with respect.

In the case of most folks, that has been the case. However, when something I hold dear is ridiculed and disrespected, I tend to “bow up” a little (Oklahoma term). Just human nature, I guess. Most of the replies I got yesterday were respectful, even though some of them disagreed with my position. That’s fine. The ones today like yours, estesbob’s, and Justaservant have been less charitable.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I think they’re very very poor substitution for the Sacrament of confession and the Eucharist
When I go to the altar I am able to hold our Lord’s precious body and my hands and follow his admonition to consume it . I cannot imagine a closer relationship with Jesus than this.

That is how I feel too.

 

[johnnyc176]

Hi johnnyc176,
I was interested in the opinions of Catholics on this topic and I think I got my answer. I always respect other people’s beliefs and opinions, especially when they are made with respect.

In the case of most folks, that has been the case. However, when something I hold dear is ridiculed and disrespected, I tend to “bow up” a little (Oklahoma term). Just human nature, I guess. Most of the replies I got yesterday were respectful, even though some of them disagreed with my position. That’s fine. The ones today like yours, estesbob’s, and Justaservant have been less charitable.

So you chose as options for the poll some answers that in your opinion are ‘less charitable’?