Question for Catholics who accept Evolution

  • Thread starter Thread starter Evoken
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
E

Evoken

Guest
Greetings,

I am a lapsed Catholic who is slowly but surely returning to the Church. Among some of the things I have been struggling with and trying to overcome, there is the issue of evolution and how it can be reconciled with Catholicism. I find the issue an obstacle because I am convinced by the evidence in favor of the theory (even tho I still have my doubts) and I am also leaning towards Catholicism.

As far as I can see evolution is not compatible with Catholicism. Some people think the issue is solved by just giving a metaphorical interpretation to Genesis, but I think this approach is superficial as the issue is deeper than that. Evolution involves a great deal of death, suffering, creatures killing each other, species going extinct, the strong killing the weak, etc. All of this contradicts the nature of the God of Catholicism, who is a God that chooses the weak to shame the strong, the innocent to shame the wise, who told Noah to bring each of the species to the ark, who makes sure that all of the animals receive their food, who watches and cares over his creation, etc. I think that evolution is the very opposite of this, so it seems like it is not a method God would use to create the diversity of life on earth.

I have my own take on the issue, which was the one I held back as a Catholic, however, a friend of mine (also a Catholic) raised these objections to me and I think that he hit the nail in the head with them.

How do Catholics who are theistic evolutionists reconcile evolution with Catholicism?

Any insight is really appreciated,
Evo
 
Evoken said:
Greetings,

I am a lapsed Catholic who is slowly but surely returning to the Church. Among some of the things I have been struggling with and trying to overcome, there is the issue of evolution and how it can be reconciled with Catholicism. I find the issue an obstacle because I am convinced by the evidence in favor of the theory (even tho I still have my doubts) and I am also leaning towards Catholicism.

As far as I can see evolution is not compatible with Catholicism. Some people think the issue is solved by just giving a metaphorical interpretation to Genesis, but I think this approach is superficial as the issue is deeper than that. Evolution involves a great deal of death, suffering, creatures killing each other, species going extinct, the strong killing the weak, etc. All of this contradicts the nature of the God of Catholicism, who is a God that chooses the weak to shame the strong, the innocent to shame the wise, who told Noah to bring each of the species to the ark, who makes sure that all of the animals receive their food, who watches and cares over his creation, etc. I think that evolution is the very opposite of this, so it seems like it is not a method God would use to create the diversity of life on earth.

I have my own take on the issue, which was the one I held back as a Catholic, however, a friend of mine (also a Catholic) raised these objections to me and I think that he hit the nail in the head with them.

How do Catholics who are theistic evolutionists reconcile evolution with Catholicism?

Any insight is really appreciated,
Evo
Click to expand...
I don’t think you can, it’s like being a “Moderate” in politics.
 
Techno2000 said:
I don’t think you can, it’s like being a “Moderate” in politics.
Click to expand...
Not exactly. Though I admit, I am not deeply familiar with the evolution theory beyond high school and college basic science.

Catholic Answers main page actually has some basic tracts on this subject:

catholic.com/library/faith_science.asp

And there are a few books out – I recall some from browsing the Ignatius Press catalogue.

Science and faith are not mutually exclusive. Though depending on the science and the faith there may not always be a ton of cross over, but I have found Catholicism very intellectually grounded in these matters.
 
Cradle Catholic here who does not see the how of evolution as being anywhere near as important as the Who. God is the Creator, and IMHO, whether He chose to whip up the world in seven literal days, seven weeks, seven years, seven minutes, seven centuries, or seven vague “time periods” or “eras” … the important thing is that He is the Uncaused Cause, the Prime Mover who started all creation going.

As for the cruelty of nature where animals eat other animals, there are poisonous plants to contend with, disease-laden insects, droughts, hurricanes, etc. … I would see this as being a result of original sin. When Adam and Eve sinned, their disobedience threw the Earth out of whack. Paradise’s garden became a jungle.

Hope these musings help?

~~ the phoenix
 
Evoken said:
Evolution involves a great deal of death, suffering, creatures killing each other, species going extinct, the strong killing the weak, etc.
Click to expand...
This process goes on today, wouldn’t you say? Death, suffering, killing, extinction, (global warming), etc.
All of this contradicts the nature of the God of Catholicism, who is a God that chooses the weak to shame the strong, the innocent to shame the wise, who told Noah to bring each of the species to the ark, who makes sure that all of the animals receive their food, who watches and cares over his creation, etc.
Click to expand...
God does all those things, but can you say that “death, suffering, killing, extinction” does not currently exist? It seems to me that the resolution of the contradiction between (1) God is love; and (2) the reality of death and suffering, is the primary question of faith in general, not simply evolutionary theory. So the question you might have to ask yourself is: can I believe, in the face of death and suffering?
 
Maybe I just don’t worry enough about these things. Evolutionary theory, and other findings in scientific disciplines don’t affect my faith, mainly because I don’t look to the bible for science, nor do I look to scientists for theology.

Species could have originated through natural selection. That’s a rather minor aspect of natural history when one considers the entire history of the universe, stretching back perhaps some 13 billion years. For most of that time, there was no life at all, no earth even.

Yet the physical constants of the universe, the cosmological constant, the precise strength of gravity and of the nuclear forces, all those seem to have been purposely designed to make human life possible. Now that is remarkable. It seems to suggest a purpose in the universe. To get away from the implications of it, many non-theistic scientists have proposed the multi-universe theory, to make our own seem less unique, and less purposeful.

But there is no need to espouse an ancient Semitic cosmology of the earth just because it happened to be the one that the author of Genesis was familiar with, and which he used to convey theological truths.
 
I just have a problem with evolution and the idea of the Garden of Eden. Animals were dying before Adam and Eve disobeyed so I don’t see how the two brought death into the world. And it doesn’t seem likely that God would make human animals an exception in the process of living and dying. I find it hard to believe the line in the Catechism that says that if Adam and Eve would have obeyed, they would not have had to suffer and die when suffering and death were already inevitable. I have issues with the doctrine of original sin because of evolution.
 
IMHO it is very important to keep the Bible in context.

PEOPLE wrote the Bible. God didn’t physically write it himself nor did he dictate the Bible. You have to be able to appreciate the context in which the author (Moses afaik) of Genesis wrote the Bible. Did he witness the beginning of Creation? Did he witness the great global flood? Such things are surely simply part of oral tradition.

I’m pretty sure God doesn’t care if you believe in Creationism or Evolution in itself. He probably cares if you are using the brain he has endowed you with though. He cares if you love God and love your neighbour and this means using your intellect at times.

The truths that affect our salvation can still be extracted from Genesis even if we believe in Evolution. I’m pretty sure St Augustine thought that the world was actually created in the blink of an eye and considered the Creation Story as an allegory.

I personally believe in Evolution because it makes sense to me and demonstrates the power of God far more than a literalistic interpretation of Creation Story. The suffering you are talking about can be witnessed today… when a animal eats its prey or when a natural disaster occurs. Suffering is a part of this world due to the Fall.
 
gell said:
The suffering you are talking about can be witnessed today… when a animal eats its prey or when a natural disaster occurs. Suffering is a part of this world due to the Fall.
Click to expand...
Sure, but the thing is that the suffering was going on for millions of years before the Fall. That is the issue.

Evo
 
Evoken said:
Sure, but the thing is that the suffering was going on for millions of years before the Fall. That is the issue.

Evo
Click to expand...
Was it though? This seems worth enquiring into rather than merely taking at face value, at least, it’s getting me personally curious. Relatedly, I once read somewhere that time is a punishment for sin … I’ll have to go track down what book that was.

~~ the phoenix
 
gell said:
The Fall is symbolic.
Click to expand...
Really?

“Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment”. (De Fide)

“Through sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace…”. (De Fide)

“Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the devil”. (De Fide)

Source: Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Dr.Ott
 
JimG said:
There was no human suffering going on until after the Fall.
Click to expand...
Right, that is one of the solutions I had reached. Also, since humans have dominion over the earth, then the fact that they are fallen affects the entire earth (animal abuse, deforestation, contamination, etc). This would explain why St. Paul says that the earth yields to be liberated from corruption(or something along those lines).

Evo
 
the_phoenix said:
Was it though? This seems worth enquiring into rather than merely taking at face value, at least, it’s getting me personally curious. Relatedly, I once read somewhere that time is a punishment for sin … I’ll have to go track down what book that was.

~~ the phoenix
Click to expand...
Well if evolution is true, then there had been millions of years in which generations of animals were born and died and preyed on each other as they evolved over countless generations before humans entered the scene. There had also been several mass extinction events like the one that wiped the dinosaurs.

Evo
 
Evoken said:
Really?

“Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment”. (De Fide)

“Through sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace…”. (De Fide)

“Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the devil”. (De Fide)

Source: Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Dr.Ott
Click to expand...
“Every individual human being as well as the whole human community are created in the image of God. In its original unity – of which Adam is the symbol – the human race is made in the image of the divine Trinity.”

This is from a document by the ITC, the Communion and Stewardship: Human Persons Created in the Image of God, headed by Cardinal Ratzinger.
 
gell said:
PEOPLE wrote the Bible. God didn’t physically write it himself nor did he dictate the Bible. You have to be able to appreciate the context in which the author (Moses afaik) of Genesis wrote the Bible. Did he witness the beginning of Creation? Did he witness the great global flood? Such things are surely simply part of oral tradition.
Click to expand...
You are right, however, I have no problem with giving the Genesis account a non-literal interpretation. My concern is different as it involves the nature of God as shown by his actions and how this can be reconciled with evolution, which appears to be the very opposite.

Evo
 
gell said:
The Fall is symbolic.
Click to expand...
Symbolic of what??

What is the substance of this so called symbolic fall?

I think the created world is viewed on both sides with a pre-conceived idea. We read into the data what we lean towards and see our side clearly.

Both sides can make a good case for their argument, and in the end it comes down to which side one will believe.

In my humble opinion, I think that at the end of all things, we will all find out that it was in fact 6 days of creation, there was no evolution, there was a flood etc. It is certainly more consistent with the whole faith, not having to pick parts out and declare that this part happened, that part was symbolic, and the other never happened at all. I don’t care if I face ridicule for it.

That’s just me though. No one can be absolutely sure, I think:shrug: .
 
Evoken said:
Greetings,

[snip]
How do Catholics who are theistic evolutionists reconcile evolution with Catholicism?

Any insight is really appreciated,
Evo
Click to expand...
At some point, God added a soul to the animals that would eventually become us. When, I don’t know.

Before that point, we were animals. After, we were God’s People.

Also, the church does not require a literal belief in Genesis 1:1 -10:xx as Literal History, but as divinely inspired writings limited by the mind of the writer.

Welcome back!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top