I am happy for you, that you are able to hear the calling of communion with heaven in the Catholic liturgy. I will be brief here; It has been my experience from studying both liturgies, that the Orthodox use language to reveal heaven on earth from her liturgies (which is very beautiful), while in the West understanding the liturgy from the liturgy of Word and the liturgy of the Eucharist, the whole of the Mass to me reveals heaven on earth without words. Both liturgies are valid, both use incense, symbols, icons, vestments, valid priesthood, valid sacraments and a true body, blood presence of Jesus Christ. There is much to digress here. Suffice it to say no one liturgy is greater than the other, both present the True presence of the Trinity in the communion of saints and angels on earth as they both celebrate Mass in communion with heaven.
The schism can be complicated, and it does not come across accurately when discussing the issues with a non catholic, because of the common sacramental lifestyle both mirror one another, discussing these internal schismatic issues with non catholics can be lost in the terminology and understanding know by both East and West, that may get lost in the translation with a non catholic.
It should be noted here, that a “True” ecumenical dialogue is being put forth behind the scenes. Be aware of the strong negativity exist, stemming from some Orthodox communities not in communion with the Pope = Peter’s Chair. These can, at times record a negativity stemming from a Western Protestant background, and never a True Eastern Orthodox argument for the “tear” =schism. It should be mentioned also that not “all” Orthodox Catholics refuse communion with the Pope.
I mention this because there was a time when both Eastern and Western Catholic Rites were all in full communion with Peter’s Chair occupied by the Pope. No Orthodox can deny this. What is new after a thousand years later, since the resurrection, we have a few Orthodox communities refusing to be in full communion with the Pope, this is never Orthodoxy from the beginning. All the Eastern Fathers regarded being united to Peter’s Chair is what constituted the Apostolic Catholic faith.
There is much more to mention on this subject of all bishops being united to Peter’s Chair in the Pope from Rome, this is how it was from the beginning and the True Orthodoxy know this very well and cannot deny this. All bishops united to Peter’s Chair in the Popes is true Orthodoxy in the True sense.
As far as who is right and who is wrong, deals with those outside of the True ecumenical efforts being put forth. This ecumenical effort is not dealing with who is right or wrong, but more on how to correct the languages and interpretations that caused the pride of men from the past who created the status quo. Again; most Eastern Orthodox Catholics remained “Orthodox” in full communion with Peter’s chair occupied by the Popes (bishop of Rome) who also remain in full communion with world wide magisterium, whereby only a few “Orthodox” refuse communion with the world wide magisterium united to the Pope.
There is a much more bigger picture that existed and continues to exist in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, than our Orthodox brothers who refuse communion with the Pope tend to paint.
If you reside in the West, and have attended an Orthodox Mass, who refuse communion with the Pope, you did not attend an Eastern Orthodox Mass; You attended a 15Th century Anglican liturgy (Mass) adopted by these Orthodox. If you dig deeper, you will find that the True Eastern Orthodox possessing valid holy orders will not celebrate Mass with these Western Orthodox not in communion with the Pope because they know their Mass is never Eastern Orthodoxy.
May God keep you on your journey
Gabriel,
I’ve been considering Orthodoxy, not necessarily Western or Eastern. In my mind it’s all the same thing, because before the great schism you didn’t have much difference between Rome, Britain, Russia, and Constantinople. It seems to me, that the only reason this “schism” is in place is because people have been misinformed a great deal about these types of issues. If we weren’t all misinformed, we’d all agree on everything.
I had not heard that history though before. I know about the Tome of Leo, and Agatho’s Letters and the Orthodox pay much tribute to those. I’m attracted a great deal to the traditional liturgy, and the incense, and the beauty of the icons. It really makes you feel like you’ve entered another plane of existence altogether. I’ve been to my local Catholic church before, and with the contemporary Mass as it is – it doesn’t give me the same sort of awe, and reverence.
I’ve also noticed that between the Orthodox and the Catholics, to answer who’s right and who’s wrong is not so simple. Nothing is so black and white, when it comes to intricate theology that almost seems like “hair splitting” at points due to linguistic barriers. Then, there will always be those people who are going to go against the established order of the way things were supposed to be. I suppose that was one of Satan’s greatest agendas, to divide up Christendom.
For instance, at Peter’s reinstatement the Catholics use this very passage to support his universal authority. The Orthodox for some reason, have never understood that passage in the same way. I have to ask myself, why this is? Maybe something got lost in transition, or someone innovated something? I also wonder if, when the Churches do reunify – if that’s a sign of the End, where the Son of God himself comes back to Earth at his second advent.
