Question for Eastern Orthodox Christians?

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1Tim215Mommy said:
oh my goodness! I will absolutely pray for her! Iperagia Theotoke soson imas. (hey, if you do Latin, I’ll do Greek fairs fair;))

RE: Becoming an Adopted Child of God via Baptism YES! but isn’t that taught by all Christian religions?
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Thank you!

I’m not sure but that is what he Catholic Church teaches. You wrote:
On the other hand who can look at that same baby and truly say, yes even this tiny little innocent baby should be not be prevented from becoming an adopted child of God through chrismation and receive the spiritual food so that he/she grows in Christ? - I hope everyone!
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(emphasis mine)

I was under the impression that the Sacrament of Confirmation, as it is called by Latins = Chrismation in the East (and that is correct I believe). So that part I underlined threw me for a loop.

I had to consult the Catholic Catechism to double check that one becomes a child of God in Baptism; and the Catechism confirmed😉 it for me that it is so.

I came from Protestantism with a Reformed Baptist view of things, more or less. I erroneously viewed Baptism as merely an outward symbol and/or profession of faith; and certainly didn’t believe babies were proper candidates.
 
Thank you Mickey and Cavarodossi (you too 1Tim215Mommy.) I’m gonna read a bit until I get tired. Sorry to sidetrack the thread a bit all.
 
Mickey said:
O God, our heavenly Father, who lovest mankind and art most merciful and compassionate, have mercy upon Thy servant, the 11 month old child, for whom I humbly pray Thee and commend to Thy gracious care and protection.
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:amen::amen::amen:
 
LionHeart777 said:
Thank you!

I’m not sure but that is what he Catholic Church teaches. You wrote:

(emphasis mine)

I was under the impression that the Sacrament of Confirmation, as it is called by Latins = Chrismation in the East (and that is correct I believe). So that part I underlined threw me for a loop.

I had to consult the Catholic Catechism to double check that one becomes a child of God in Baptism; and the Catechism confirmed😉 it for me that is so.

I came from Protestantism with a Reformed Baptist view of things, more or less. I erroneously viewed Baptism as merely an outward symbol and/or profession of faith; and certainly didn’t believe babies were proper candidates.
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Chrismation for us is what happens to a Baby when he/she receives at once the Mysteries of Baptism, Confirmation & Eucharist. By Chrismation I meant Baptism.

With your background I want to ask that if Baptism really were merely symbolic, then why would babies be excluded as a candidate?
 
LionHeart777 said:
Speaking of babies, my 11 month old is having surgery first thing in the morning to remove a cyst from her liver duct. Prayers for her would be appreciated if you all don’t mind 🙂 👍
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Your eleven month old little baby girl going through that…:eek::eek::eek:I am so sorry!!! Prayers coming your way brother!!! 👍👍👍
 
1Tim215Mommy said:
Chrismation for us is what happens to a Baby when he/she receives at once the Mysteries of Baptism, Confirmation & Eucharist. By Chrismation I meant Baptism.

With your background I want to ask that if Baptism really were merely symbolic, then why would babies be excluded as a candidate?
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Well, I wrongly believed that it was for those who could make an outward profession of faith. I had no concept of Sacraments imparting grace. Thankfully, my 2 girls have been Baptized and I received a conditional Baptism upon entering the Catholic Church.

I figured your comment might have something to do with those three Sacraments being given to infants all at once. I entered the Catholic Church about 3 years ago, and it was the same for me; all 3 at once, except my Baptism was a conditional one as I didn’t know if I had been Baptized or not as a child (my Mom was nominally Christian when I was growing up, not a Baptist by the way, and my Dad a non-Christian heavily influenced by Zen philosophy. They’re both regular attending Protestants know, thank God, and I’m still working on 'em:D)
 
LionHeart777 said:
Well, I wrongly believed that it was for those who could make an outward profession of faith. I had no concept of Sacraments imparting grace. Thankfully, my 2 girls have been Baptized and I received a conditional Baptism upon entering the Catholic Church.

I figured your comment might have something to do with those three Sacraments being given to infants all at once. I entered the Catholic Church about 3 years ago, and it was the same for me; all 3 at once, except my Baptism was a conditional one as I didn’t know if I had been Baptized or not as a child (my Mom was nominally Christian when I was growing up, not a Baptist by the way, and my Dad a non-Christian heavily influenced by Zen philosophy. They’re both regular attending Protestants know, thank God, and** I’m still working on 'em**:D)
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I can relate…All of my family members are non-Catholic with the exception of my mom…
 
LionHeart777 said:
Speaking of babies, my 11 month old is having surgery first thing in the morning to remove a cyst from her liver duct. Prayers for her would be appreciated if you all don’t mind 🙂 👍
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Oh wow, my prayers are with her.
 
Not sure I would say the baby has sin “removed” because the baby has not sinned. Baptism isn’t only for the forgiveness of sins but also for santification, brining one into the church.

That being said the only point we are really free of sin is when we have come to such a point that we do not actually sin anymore which might be only accomplished at the ressurection.
 
So what was transmitted from Adam and Eve and the fall, to the innocent, regardless of age before reason? Orthodox make not a single reference to it on this thread.

Romans 5:12 - Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

St Cyprian “letter to Donatus” 246-247

“I indulged my sin as is they were actually part and parcel to my life. But afterwards when the “STAIN” of my past life had been washed away by means of water of re-birth; a light from above poured itself upon my chastened and now pure heart, afterward through the Spirit that is breathed from heaven, a second birth made me a new man, Thus it had to be acknowledged that what was of the earth and born of the flesh and had lived submissive to sins, had now begun to be of God, inasmuch as the HS was animating it”

and

“Letter to the Council to the number of sixty-six”- 251-252

“In the case of the worst sinners and of those who formally sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sin is granted and no-one is held back from Baptism and Grace, how much more, then. should an infant not be held back, who, having recently been born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contacted the contagion of that old death from his being first born. For this very reason does he approach more easily to receive the remission of sins: because the sins forgiven him are not his own but those of another”

1700 year old debate and it didn’t start with Augustine and it didn’t end with a “infallible” homily by St John.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
Not sure I would say the baby has sin “removed” because the baby has not sinned. Baptism isn’t only for the forgiveness of sins but also for santification, brining one into the church.

That being said the only point we are really free of sin is when we have come to such a point that we do not actually sin anymore which might be only accomplished at the ressurection.
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I like what you said here, and along those lines, I would say just in observation with my 3 kids, that although they are born without commuting actual sin, they were certainly born with an ability to sin, and even at a young age (around 1) had commitef selfish acts which I would call sin (culpability aside). So I say this just to note, that it seems clear babies have a sinful nature, perhaps undeveloped but nonetheless there. This is what Catholics call original sin that we inherited from Adam and Eve and is sin that baptism saves from too.
 
That’s why Baptism and the Resurrection are intimately related.

The confusion today comes not from the actual understanding East and West but from fringe thinking which we see with the reformers such as Calvin and then to the opposite extremes in orthodoxy in various sectors. And of course how this effects individual thinking if various areas.

Baptism by desire is Salvation through Grace which completely links to the resurrection and sacrament of reconciliation . Since without the resurrection we are still subjected to severed communion with the tree of life/paradise just as Adam and Eve were severed from the tree of life and paradise, so are we since we too have their fallen nature which is self evident, as we truly are not in paradise. Thus the redemption.

In other words they were not in a State of Grace=Communion anymore.

However we also are not devoid of Gods Grace since we live by the moment by Grace. Man has free-will which Adam and Eve surely had. And the same opportunity exists for man to embrace Grace and reject the pit-fall of the world which opposes Grace.

The unbaptized innocents are saved by Gods Grace, not for any other reason but HIs love and by their blindness to what they have no conscience to acknowledge in free-will. Nor do we know how for sure this reality effects the un-baptized. We believe and pray that in Gods love and mercy they are saved, for the truth is He created them to exist. They cannot, not exist. So their path of existence truly continues.

Baptism isn’t strictly about sin, its about the re-connection of Communion with God in Grace, perfect contrition. Which we have a responsibility to maintain, or, it too can be lost through free-will. But Grace in never void, its mercy till judgment as we see with the good Thief. Its called the remission of sin by the washing away of the severed stated inherited through first man.

Here’s the issue. If there is no purgatory/purification which all are so quick to jump on, if we then say, which btw everyone does so far here, that unbaptized children do not go to hell but heaven.

Then this also leave’s ONE alternative. namely, everyone is born in a state of grace. “not true” since their would be no need for redemption.

And btw there is no doctrine and no certainty, just faith and prayer with the unbaptized. .I trust God will do for them what they could not do for themselves.
 
My daughter is recovering and the surgery went well. Thank you all for your prayers! Sorry to derail again :o
 
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