Question for Episcopalians

[mikew262]

In theology, the Episcopal Church and the Catholic Church are very close, except the Episcopal Church does not recognize the Pope as their spiritual leader. There may be other minor differences as well.

My question to Episcopalians is what do you see as the main differences between your church and the Catholic Church? Why be Episcopalian and not Catholic? I’d really be interested in the answers from any former Catholics who converted to the Episcopal Church. Former Episcopalians who converted to the Catholic Church are welcome to comment as well.

Pls, no denomination bashing from either side, I’m just looking for information.

Thanks!

 

[Della]

As a former member of the ECUSA what I see as standing in the way of reunification is two main issues:

Firstly, the definition of the Eucharist. Episcopalians do not believe in transubstantiation as taught by the Catholic Church. The understanding within Anglicanism varies widely from one bishop to another, from one parish to another, from one priest to another.

And secondly, the Anglicans’ decision to ordain women to the priesthood. This, of course, is in direct opposition to Catholic teaching.

 

[GKC]

mikew262:

In theology, the Episcopal Church and the Catholic Church are very close, except the Episcopal Church does not recognize the Pope as their spiritual leader. There may be other minor differences as well.

My question to Episcopalians is what do you see as the main differences between your church and the Catholic Church? Why be Episcopalian and not Catholic? I’d really be interested in the answers from any former Catholics who converted to the Episcopal Church. Former Episcopalians who converted to the Catholic Church are welcome to comment as well.

Pls, no denomination bashing from either side, I’m just looking for information.

Thanks!

How about from Anglo-Catholics who haven’t converted either way?

Many Anglicans do recognise the Pope as a spiritual leader of the One, Holy Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Benedict is usually specifically remembered in our Mass, when prayers are offered for orthodox bishops. But generally Anglicans do not agree that the Bishop of Rome possesses universal ordinary authority (except for those few we call Anglo-Papalists). It is not at all uncommon to find Anglicans who readily ackowledge that the Pope is Primate if the West (a title I hear that Benedict will not be using, sadly), making him primus inter pares. But that, of course, is not the same as what you believe.

Della’s points are correct, with a couple of caveats, mainly expanding on her point that beliefs vary in Anglicanism. For those Anglicans (including Episcopalians) for whom her points are true, I agree. But generically within historic Anglicanism, the primary issue is the role of the Pope. Anglicans vary on the issue of Transubstantiation, as Della said, though most will acknowledge the Real Presence, without specifying a particular metaphysics of how that is done as de fide. And many, many Anglicans know that there is no such thing as a female priest/bishop. I’d say the Papal office is the most widespread difference.

GKC

 

[1ke]

mikew262:

In theology, the Episcopal Church and the Catholic Church are very close, except the Episcopal Church does not recognize the Pope as their spiritual leader. There may be other minor differences as well.

This is not correct. The differences are far from “minor”. The Anglican communion, of which the ECUSA is a part, is basically 100% protestant-- they reject the communion of Saints, there is conflict as to the real presence (they can’t even be internally consistent on that one), they do not recognize 7 sacraments, and of course they approve of abortion. That’s for starters. There are “some” members of the various Anglican communions who would call themselves Anglo-Catholics (high church). Then there are others within the same communion who more closely resemble the Reformed churches of Europe (low church). The fact that “low church” and “high church” coexist is an example of the fractured and inconsistent theology in that demonination. Anytyhing goes, basically.

mikew262:

My question to Episcopalians is what do you see as the main differences between your church and the Catholic Church?

I saw the main difference as the EC being “Catholic lite”… the same liturgy w/o the rules. I grew up EC, and I actually believed Catholic theology all along. Until I was an adult, I had no idea that this was not what the EC taught. The EC has an appearance of Catholicism since it has the similar liturgy, but doctrinally it is on opposite ends of the spectrum.

mikew262:

Why be Episcopalian and not Catholic?

I converted in 1992 after studying what my church (the EC) actually taught. It’s a confused mish-mash of things, not even internally consistent between branches of the Anglican Communion. Watered down, conflicting, and capitulating to the fad of the day.

 

[GKC]

1ke:

This is not correct. The differences are far from “minor”. The Anglican communion, of which the ECUSA is a part, is basically 100% protestant-- they reject the communion of Saints, there is conflict as to the real presence (they can’t even be internally consistent on that one), they do not recognize 7 sacraments, and of course they approve of abortion. That’s for starters. There are “some” members of the various Anglican communions who would call themselves Anglo-Catholics (high church). Then there are others within the same communion who more closely resemble the Reformed churches of Europe (low church). The fact that “low church” and “high church” coexist is an example of the fractured and inconsistent theology in that demonination. Anytyhing goes, basically.

Milage will vary, of course, and I only have time for a brief comment. I would suspect you had experience over on the more reformed edge of the historic Anglican spectrum. Which doesn’t exhaust the category " Anglican". Anglicans do not generally reject the communion of Saints. Far from it, as can be heard in any Missal parish, or at any All SAints/all Soils days Masses. And while some affirm 2 Sacraments, again over at the reformed side, most understand 7 Sacraments, 2 of which are Dominical (instituted directly of Our Lord). Your comment about the dichotomy found in Anglicanism is correct, though high Church and Anglo-Catholic are not isomporphic.(one refers to churchmanship, one more to doctrine, though there is a large overlap). Low/high church are distinctions that aer as old as Anglanism, that is true. A long hisory behind that. Longer tha the time I have.

GKC

I

 

[a_cermak]

As has already been said, this is definitely a question that highlights the diversity which can be found in ECUSA. On the one end are 39 Article Episcopalians who reject the Real Presence, claim only 2 sacraments, eschew the Communion of Saints and on the other end you have Episcopalians that are Catholic in theology in all but Papal Primacy (and many of those would recognize him as being the Patriarch of the West and First Among Equals). It all depends on the parish.

I’m a former Catholic, new convert to ECUSA (well convert may be an overstatement–there’s no need for any rite of initiation because they recognize all the Sacraments of the Catholic Church. So “conversion” is pretty much just a matter of registering at the parish.)

Why did I change?

Well, mainly because I’m expecting my first-born and started looking at baptism and the baptismal promises and realized that I couldn’t make them in the Catholic Church. I discovered that I had a set of core beliefs that weren’t going to change and I would not like myself if they did change. And some of these values did not mesh with Catholicism. So I got introduced to ECUSA by a TV show (believe it or not) and investigated it and discovered that there was a parish in my area that was very Catholic in practice (in fact, about half of its members are former RC) and it has a woman priest (the only departure from “pure” Anglo-Catholicism, a departure of which I approve).

So I’ve found a Church where my politics are not an issue, where I can continue to use my Jerusalem Catholic Edition bible, where I can still say a Rosary and adore the Sacrament, where my statue of Our Lady is not a shocking thing to find in a believer’s front yard, where I can go to Confession and receive absolution, where a Catholic missalette would be a drop in replacement for the Order of the Mass leaflet, and where I can make the baptismal promises without crossing my fingers behind my back.

Pax,
Amy

 

[Della]

a_cermak:

As has already been said, this is definitely a question that highlights the diversity which can be found in ECUSA. On the one end are 39 Article Episcopalians who reject the Real Presence, claim only 2 sacraments, eschew the Communion of Saints and on the other end you have Episcopalians that are Catholic in theology in all but Papal Primacy (and many of those would recognize him as being the Patriarch of the West and First Among Equals). It all depends on the parish.

I’m a former Catholic, new convert to ECUSA (well convert may be an overstatement–there’s no need for any rite of initiation because they recognize all the Sacraments of the Catholic Church. So “conversion” is pretty much just a matter of registering at the parish.)

Why did I change?

Well, mainly because I’m expecting my first-born and started looking at baptism and the baptismal promises and realized that I couldn’t make them in the Catholic Church. I discovered that I had a set of core beliefs that weren’t going to change and I would not like myself if they did change. And some of these values did not mesh with Catholicism. So I got introduced to ECUSA by a TV show (believe it or not) and investigated it and discovered that there was a parish in my area that was very Catholic in practice (in fact, about half of its members are former RC) and it has a woman priest (the only departure from “pure” Anglo-Catholicism, a departure of which I approve).

So I’ve found a Church where my politics are not an issue, where I can continue to use my Jerusalem Catholic Edition bible, where I can still say a Rosary and adore the Sacrament, where my statue of Our Lady is not a shocking thing to find in a believer’s front yard, where I can go to Confession and receive absolution, where a Catholic missalette would be a drop in replacement for the Order of the Mass leaflet, and where I can make the baptismal promises without crossing my fingers behind my back.

Pax,
Amy

And I say that if the Church has to conform to you instead of you conforming to the Church you did the right thing by us all. I truly wish more Catholics, who will not embrace the whole of Catholic teaching, would leave. There’d be fewer but better Catholics left to worship God and serve God as he desires and not as desired by man.

 

[GKC]

Della:

And I say that if the Church has to conform to you instead of you conforming to the Church you did the right thing by us all. I truly wish more Catholics, who will not embrace the whole of Catholic teaching, would leave. There’d be fewer but better Catholics left to worship God and serve God as he desires and not as desired by man.

Curious, but parallel. I wish that there were more orthodox ECUSAians moving to the RCC. Much better over there.

And looking over my post above, it’s obvious I was really in a hurry. Apologies.

GKC

 

[mikew262]

Della:

And I say that if the Church has to conform to you instead of you conforming to the Church you did the right thing by us all. I truly wish more Catholics, who will not embrace the whole of Catholic teaching, would leave. There’d be fewer but better Catholics left to worship God and serve God as he desires and not as desired by man.

I suspect there would be a lot fewer Catholics left.

 

[Della]

GKC:

Curious, but parallel. I wish that there were more orthodox ECUSAians moving to the RCC. Much better over there.

That was me. I saw how the ECUSA was moving farther and farther away from traditional beliefs and that it was really every man for himself. If I had wanted the first I would have stayed in the ECUSA, and if I had wanted the latter I could have stayed in Evangelicalism. I craved unity and authority–both things Jesus talked about with such power and which he bestowed on the Church he founded. I came to see that that Church was the same today, so I had to enter the Catholic Church.

And looking over my post above, it’s obvious I was really in a hurry. Apologies.

GKC

I don’t want to question what you think you rushed over or didn’t state correctly, but I didn’t see anything you need to apologize for. :tiphat:

 

[Della]

Originally Posted by Della
And I say that if the Church has to conform to you instead of you conforming to the Church you did the right thing by us all. I truly wish more Catholics, who will not embrace the whole of Catholic teaching, would leave. There’d be fewer but better Catholics left to worship God and serve God as he desires and not as desired by man.

mikew262:

I suspect there would be a lot fewer Catholics left.

That could be. But, I don’t think it would bother the Lord. After all, he started out with only a handful–72 that we know of, and of those he pared it down to 12 to be his spokesmen. I think we’d do all right.

 

[estesbob]

mikew262:

I suspect there would be a lot fewer Catholics left.

Actually the number of catholics would stay the exact same.

 

[Della]

estesbob:

Actually the number of catholics would stay the exact same.

Yes, we would! :yup: :clapping:

 

[estesbob]

a_cermak:

I’m a former Catholic, new convert to ECUSA (well convert may be an overstatement–there’s no need for any rite of initiation because they recognize all the Sacraments of the Catholic Church. So “conversion” is pretty much just a matter of registering at the parish.)

Why did I change?

Well, mainly because I’m expecting my first-born and started looking at baptism and the baptismal promises and realized that I couldn’t make them in the Catholic Church. I discovered that I had a set of core beliefs that weren’t going to change and I would not like myself if they did change. And some of these values did not mesh with Catholicism. So I got introduced to ECUSA by a TV show (believe it or not) and investigated it and discovered that there was a parish in my area that was very Catholic in practice (in fact, about half of its members are former RC) and it has a woman priest (the only departure from “pure” Anglo-Catholicism, a departure of which I approve).

So I’ve found a Church where my politics are not an issue, where I can continue to use my Jerusalem Catholic Edition bible, where I can still say a Rosary and adore the Sacrament, where my statue of Our Lady is not a shocking thing to find in a believer’s front yard, where I can go to Confession and receive absolution, where a Catholic missalette would be a drop in replacement for the Order of the Mass leaflet, and where I can make the baptismal promises without crossing my fingers behind my back.

Pax,

Amy

Kind of sad-you keep talking about “your beliefs”. Worst yet you seem to have put your politics ahead of your faith. Doesnt seem like you need a Church-you decide what you want to beleive and then try and find a Church that validates your beleifs. Does anyone else see the problem jhere?

 

[GKC]

Della:

That was me. I saw how the ECUSA was moving farther and farther away from traditional beliefs and that it was really every man for himself. If I had wanted the first I would have stayed in the ECUSA, and if I had wanted the latter I could have stayed in Evangelicalism. I craved unity and authority–both things Jesus talked about with such power and which he bestowed on the Church he founded. I came to see that that Church was the same today, so I had to enter the Catholic Church.

Understood. I went in a different direction. But that’s why I’m not in communion with ECUSA/Canterbury.

I don’t want to question what you think you rushed over or didn’t state correctly, but I didn’t see anything you need to apologize for. :tiphat:

Thanks Della. Along with some fuzzy wording, it was mainly the typos. At least one of which was mildly amusing in an embarrassing sort of way. No time to proof it.

GKC

 

[mikew262]

estesbob:

Actually the number of catholics would stay the exact same.

Clever, but wrong.

 

[mikew262]

estesbob:

Kind of sad-you keep talking about “your beliefs”. Worst yet you seem to have put your politics ahead of your faith. Doesnt seem like you need a Church-you decide what you want to beleive and then try and find a Church that validates your beleifs. Does anyone else see the problem jhere?

Yeah, your attitude with a_cermak. This person was unhappy in the Catholic Church, so he/she chose a different Christian denomination where he/she felt more comfortable. This person is still a Christian, and has just as much chance of making it to heaven as you do.

 

[Della]

mikew262:

Yeah, your attitude with a_cermak. This person was unhappy in the Catholic Church, so he/she chose a different Christian denomination where he/she felt more comfortable. This person is still a Christian, and has just as much chance of making it to heaven as you do.

She left Christ’s Church for a “mess of pottage” and you see this as a good thing?

 

[1ke]

Della:

And I say that if the Church has to conform to you instead of you conforming to the Church you did the right thing by us all. I truly wish more Catholics, who will not embrace the whole of Catholic teaching, would leave. There’d be fewer but better Catholics left to worship God and serve God as he desires and not as desired by man.

Yes, but how sad that people actually think like this-- let’s pick a church where I can do whatever I want without feeling guilty… I’m sure God really won’t mind.

It’s so sad how people are blind to the Truth and unwilling to conform their will to Christ’s.

 

[mary_bobo]

1ke:

Yes, but how sad that people actually think like this-- let’s pick a church where I can do whatever I want without feeling guilty… I’m sure God really won’t mind.

It’s so sad how people are blind to the Truth and unwilling to conform their will to Christ’s.

Someday that naggy little voice called a conscience will get to the OP and she will realize what she has done. I only pray that she lives long enough to get right with the church and God.