Question for Episcopalians

[estesbob]

UtahMaggie:

My question is regarding the saints. I know that Episcopals recognize some of the saints but do the recognize all of them? Which ones do the recognize? Do they recognize the ones cannonized more recently like St. Juan Diego? How do they decide? I’ve wondered about this for years.

Thanks,
Maggie

The only Saints they recognioze is those that were recognized when they spilt away

 

[estesbob]

mikew262:

I started this thread and I asked that no bashing go on. I can see it has started.

BTW, who says being Episcopalian is not right with God? Any Christian, no matter the denomination, has just as much a chance of getting to heaven as any other.

I dont see that any bashing is going on. We had a poster tell us she was leaving the One True Church over docrtinal and political differences. How could we NOT comment on that?

 

[estesbob]

mikew262:

I don’t remember anything in the Bible that says unless you are a Catholic, you cannot be saved. IMO, if you accept Christ as the Son of God, and try to live your life as he instructed, then your chances of getting to heaven are pretty good. While I believe being a Catholic comes the closest to what Jesus intended, not being one, does not eliminate one from salvation.

Mike:

Since we are not a Sola Scriptura Church it doesnt matter whehter the Bible claims you need to be Cathiolic to be saved. There is a huge range of issues not directly addressed in the Bible. Fortunately Jesus founded a Church to give us guidance so that each generation didnt have to try and figure things out for itself.

The Church is clear that Salvation comes only through the Catholic Church. This does not, however, mean one must be a member of the Church to be saved. The Church takes into account the “invincible ignorance” of our seperated bretherten. By that they mean they were never exposed to the fullness of Truth . Thus the Church assures us that non-catholics can indeed be saved. It is, however, very problematic for one who was raised Catholic and leaves the Church. They, supposedly, have been given the Fullness of Truth and have rejected it. Of course we can not judge how well versed they were in the Truth so we can not categoricaly say that all who leave the Church have forfeited salvation BUT one who leaves puts themselves at extreme peril.

 

[estesbob]

Della:

I don’t think anyone intends to bash but to stand up for the truth, as we need to do, although some of us, me included, could have been more loving in the way we did it. Mea culpa!

What anyone who leaves the Catholic Church for a Protestant denomination or a non-Christian religion or atheism does is commit an act of formal heresy because he or she is denying one or more teachings of the Church in order to embrace whatever teaching they will accept of another body of believers not in full communion with the Catholic Church (putting it in my own poor words).

Now, we don’t know if the poster being discussed is culpable or not because we don’t know if she left with full knowledge, full understand, and full consent of her will. I assume from what she has told us that it was at least with full consent of her will, but I very much doubt it was with full knowledge and full understanding. All that would be for her confessor to determine, not us, anyway. But, we cannot rejoice that she has abandoned Christ’s one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church merely because she doesn’t want to believe some of the things the Church teaches. That is a tragedy not a good thing.

As for those who were brought up ECUSA and other Protestant denominations, they are material heretics, which is another whole ball of wax with another whole set of determinations as to whether or not they will be saved. Of course none of us knows if we will be saved (although we can have moral certainty of it), so we are not judging anyone’s salvation but merely saying that by abandoning the Church she has cut herself off from fully participating in the life of the Church. Instead of picking and choosing what she will practice and believe and what she won’t, she ought to have done what she recited every Sunday at Mass and embraced the full teaching of the Church, conforming herself to it instead of listening to other voices that obviously robbed her of her faith in the Church.

Well said. We dont know that those who leave the Church ALWAYS forfeit their chance for salvation but we do know they ALWAYS put themselve in extreme peril. One who leaves the Church beucase it does not support their political views would, IMO, be especially in danger .

 

[Contarini]

1ke:

This is not correct. The differences are far from “minor”. The Anglican communion, of which the ECUSA is a part, is basically 100% protestant

There is no “thing” called “Protestant” which one can be 100% of!

Of course Anglicanism is historically Protestant. But we are very odd Protestants. If there is some sort of Protestant doctrinal consensus over against Catholicism, we certainly do not adhere to it 100%. So the only meaning I can put on your statement is a clearly false one.

– they reject the communion of Saints,

We do nothing of the kind. We have less dogmatic views on the subject than the RCC–and this is true of most subjects.

there is conflict as to the real presence (they can’t even be internally consistent on that one),

There is disagreement on the nature of the Real Presence, true. But that is hardly 100% Protestant. There are Episcopal churches that practice Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament. Anglican views on the Eucharist range from a position basically indistinguishable from Catholicism to a Calvinist “spiritual presence” (which is definitely favored by the Articles–but then the Articles have a very limited authority). I think it would be quite hard to maintain a purely symbolic view within the Episcopal Church.

they do not recognize 7 sacraments,

and of course they approve of abortion.

More accurately, ECUSA officially approves of the legalization of abortion. I know that this is probably a hopeless argument (people on both sides of this issue are not very good at being accurate about what people on the other side believe), but one can approve of something being legal without approving of the thing.

Nonetheless, ECUSA does belong to the RCRC, which states that abortion can be an ethically responsible choice. One could argue that that constitutes approval of abortion.

Either way, I entirely agree that ECUSA’s position on this issue is horribly wrong. And of course it is not the historic position of Anglicanism or of any other form of Christianity.

Edwin

 

[mikew262]

Della:

I don’t think anyone intends to bash but to stand up for the truth, as we need to do, although some of us, me included, could have been more loving in the way we did it. Mea culpa!

What anyone who leaves the Catholic Church for a Protestant denomination or a non-Christian religion or atheism does is commit an act of formal heresy because he or she is denying one or more teachings of the Church in order to embrace whatever teaching they will accept of another body of believers not in full communion with the Catholic Church (putting it in my own poor words).

Now, we don’t know if the poster being discussed is culpable or not because we don’t know if she left with full knowledge, full understand, and full consent of her will. I assume from what she has told us that it was at least with full consent of her will, but I very much doubt it was with full knowledge and full understanding. All that would be for her confessor to determine, not us, anyway. But, we cannot rejoice that she has abandoned Christ’s one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church merely because she doesn’t want to believe some of the things the Church teaches. That is a tragedy not a good thing.

As for those who were brought up ECUSA and other Protestant denominations, they are material heretics, which is another whole ball of wax with another whole set of determinations as to whether or not they will be saved. Of course none of us knows if we will be saved (although we can have moral certainty of it), so we are not judging anyone’s salvation but merely saying that by abandoning the Church she has cut herself off from fully participating in the life of the Church. Instead of picking and choosing what she will practice and believe and what she won’t, she ought to have done what she recited every Sunday at Mass and embraced the full teaching of the Church, conforming herself to it instead of listening to other voices that obviously robbed her of her faith in the Church.

When 2 or more gather in my name, I (Christ) will be there. Not gather in my name in a Catholic Church, but gather in my name, period.

I think that says it all.

 

[mikew262]

estesbob:

I dont see that any bashing is going on. We had a poster tell us she was leaving the One True Church over docrtinal and political differences. How could we NOT comment on that?

Read my original post. I was asking for (name removed by moderator)uts from Episcopalians on what the differences were between their church and ours, and if they were former Catholics, why did they leave.

I want them to be free to comment without being criticized for their choice. I guess that was too much to ask.

 

[mikew262]

estesbob:

Mike:

Since we are not a Sola Scriptura Church it doesnt matter whehter the Bible claims you need to be Cathiolic to be saved. There is a huge range of issues not directly addressed in the Bible. Fortunately Jesus founded a Church to give us guidance so that each generation didnt have to try and figure things out for itself.

The Church is clear that Salvation comes only through the Catholic Church. This does not, however, mean one must be a member of the Church to be saved. The Church takes into account the “invincible ignorance” of our seperated bretherten. By that they mean they were never exposed to the fullness of Truth . Thus the Church assures us that non-catholics can indeed be saved. It is, however, very problematic for one who was raised Catholic and leaves the Church. They, supposedly, have been given the Fullness of Truth and have rejected it. Of course we can not judge how well versed they were in the Truth so we can not categoricaly say that all who leave the Church have forfeited salvation BUT one who leaves puts themselves at extreme peril.

Much of our tradition came from man, not God. Maybe some people had some fundemental problems with some those traditions. Maybe some people got disenchanted with how the church handled the priest child abuse scandal. There could be a variety of legitimate reasons on why a catholic left the church. However, if their basic Christian beliefs are still intact, IMO, I really don’t think God has an issue with it. After all, he is the ultimate judge, not the Church.

 

[billkarr]

I was going to join the Episcopal Church and I did alot of studying of them. They believe that the bread and wine becomes the Body and Blood of Christ. They have no teaching on how it happens they just believe that it’s a mystery of faith above all understanding and thepeople get to believe what they want. Now I’m not a Episcopalian so I may be wrong. If i’m wrong please let me know. I think the Episcopal Church is a great church but there something i couldn’t get over but their belief on the eucharist isn’t one of them. about the lady who left the Catholic Church for the Episcopal I give her credit. Alot of peolpe when disagree with the church they leave for good and never go back. But she picks another church who has almost the beliefs.

 

[Writer]

a_cermak:

But in my Church, they are validly ordained and I believe them to be validly ordained. Further, I believe in the validity of the sacraments and that I receive Grace from them. In ECUSA it is not at all surprising to see multiple bishops consecrate a new bishop. One will frequently be from the Old Roman Catholic Church Utrecht line which does have RCC approved apostolic succession. I don’t believe this lineage is broken by female bishops because I (and ECUSA) don’t believe that women are inherently unable to be priests or bishops.

The issue of women as priests is a complicated one, and maybe not the best area to focus on too much in a discussion like this, but there was another Anglican named C.S. Lewis who had some major concerns, too. I would suggest you read Lewis’ essay entitled “Priesteses in the Church” and his book (a collection of essays) called the *Fern-Seed and Elephants. *The latter collection, in particular, is a little less direct on the details of this particular issue, but it focuses more on the general loss of orthodoxy within the Anglican tradition. He even makes a comment about missionaries soon being needed to the Anglican Church in the west, and I understand this is happening now. As a convert from ECUSA, my family could not be happier that we have left the moral relativism of the ECUSA behind us.

 

[estesbob]

mikew262:

Much of our tradition came from man, not God. Maybe some people had some fundemental problems with some those traditions. Maybe some people got disenchanted with how the church handled the priest child abuse scandal. There could be a variety of legitimate reasons on why a catholic left the church. However, if their basic Christian beliefs are still intact, IMO, I really don’t think God has an issue with it. After all, he is the ultimate judge, not the Church.

You can believe whatever you want. Just note that you are in profound disagreement with the teachings of the Church you claim to belong to. There are NO legitimate reasons for leaving the One true Church, the Church founded by Jesus Christ. Those who do so put their immortal souls in danger.

 

[estesbob]

mikew262:

When 2 or more gather in my name, I (Christ) will be there. Not gather in my name in a Catholic Church, but gather in my name, period.

I think that says it all.

What is says is you are not in Accord with the Holy catholic Church. Thats sad.

 

[estesbob]

mikew262:

Read my original post. I was asking for (name removed by moderator)uts from Episcopalians on what the differences were between their church and ours, and if they were former Catholics, why did they leave.

I want them to be free to comment without being criticized for their choice. I guess that was too much to ask.

Yoiu are in a CATHOLIC forum. What did you expects. You yourself have made profoundly incorrect statements about the doctrines and teachings of our Church. You have made these statements to non-catholics. Are we supposed to let you speak in error about our Church?

 

[Della]

mikew262:

When 2 or more gather in my name, I (Christ) will be there. Not gather in my name in a Catholic Church, but gather in my name, period.

I think that says it all.

Well, it is obvious you either blew my post off or are determined to believe whatever you want or both. This relativism of yours is not Christian nor biblical nor sensible, but is based in the philosophy that we all just should get along and hang the truth. But, that way leads not only to chaos, but to loss of faith and eventually to loss of salvation.

 

[mikew262]

estesbob:

You can believe whatever you want. Just note that you are in profound disagreement with the teachings of the Church you claim to belong to. There are NO legitimate reasons for leaving the One true Church, the Church founded by Jesus Christ. Those who do so put their immortal souls in danger.

And you can believe whatever you want. Yes, I do have some disagreement with the church I DO belong too. Once again, I commend your devoutness, but sometimes I think it clouds your seeing of the bigger picture. The picture that Jesus will welcome anybody, I say anybody, that accepts him into their lives and tries to live their lives as he instructed.

 

[mikew262]

estesbob:

What is says is you are not in Accord with the Holy catholic Church. Thats sad.

Nope, thats not what it says. It means just what it said. What’s sad is that you don’t see that. You seem to shun other Christians just because they are not Catholic. Now that is sad!

 

[mikew262]

estesbob:

Yoiu are in a CATHOLIC forum. What did you expects. You yourself have made profoundly incorrect statements about the doctrines and teachings of our Church. You have made these statements to non-catholics. Are we supposed to let you speak in error about our Church?

What? Where have I made incorrect statements about Catholic Doctrine? I mentioned where I disagree with some doctrine and gave my own opinion, that’s hardly the same. If you are going to criticize, which you are good at doing, at least get your facts straight.

Again, I asked for opinions from Episcopalians, but you couldn’t help yourself. You had to jump in and be critical of any opinion that you didn’t share in. I asked posters to try to stay within the scope of my original post. You couldn’t. What a shocker!!

This forum deals with non-Catholic religions, there may some opinions here you won’t disagree with. Try to practice a little self-control.

Now, I’d like to switch the focus of this thread back to where it should be, if that’s ok with you.

 

[mikew262]

Della:

Well, it is obvious you either blew my post off or are determined to believe whatever you want or both. This relativism of yours is not Christian nor biblical nor sensible, but is based in the philosophy that we all just should get along and hang the truth. But, that way leads not only to chaos, but to loss of faith and eventually to loss of salvation.

Oh please! I just quoted scripture to you, a very powerful piece of scripture. I can see you just blew that off. As Christians, we all believe in the same basic truths. Yes, Catholic and Protestants have some significant differences, but I think they share most of the important ones.

It’s a crying shame that Christians of different denominations have so little regard for each other. I hang other around Christian forums sometimes and I see the same thing out of some of them. “Catholics are all heretics and they are going straight to Hell, unless they repent., blah, blah, blah”.

Very sad and unChristianlike. It makes me sick sometimes, particularly when I hear this out of fellow Catholics.
.

 

[estesbob]

mikew262:

And you can believe whatever you want. Yes, I do have some disagreement with the church I DO belong too. Once again, I commend your devoutness, but sometimes I think it clouds your seeing of the bigger picture. The picture that Jesus will welcome anybody, I say anybody, that accepts him into their lives and tries to live their lives as he instructed.

My aherence to the Teachings of the Church clouds my thinking???

And I dont believe anything I want-I beleive in the Holy cathiolic Church, the Church founded by Jesus himself, the Church that has the fullness of TRUTH. You can express you opinions all you like but please dont mislead people into thinking that what you say and what you believe is in accordance with the Tecahings of out Church You say that you DO belong to our Church yet you have disagreements with its doctrines and appear to beleive that all Christian Faiths are interchangeable. How do you reconcile that?

 

[Della]

mikew262:

Oh please! I just quoted scripture to you, a very powerful piece of scripture. I can see you just blew that off. As Christians, we all believe in the same basic truths. Yes, Catholic and Protestants have some significant differences, but I think they share most of the important ones.

I know the Scriptures as well as you do and what you did was quote it out of context of both history and Sacred Tradition, which is why you misapplied it. Catholics and and Protestants don’t “share most of the important [beliefs].” Protestants merely retained Catholic ones that they wanted to and dumped those they didn’t want to believe, and then added several of their own, which they had no authority from God to do. Hardly the same thing at all!

It’s a crying shame that Christians of different denominations have so little regard for each other. I hang other around Christian forums sometimes and I see the same thing out of some of them. “Catholics are all heretics and they are going straight to Hell, unless they repent., blah, blah, blah”.

If I had said that anyone is going to hell for not believing in the Catholic Church your accusation might carry some weight, but I said no such thing. I went way out of my way not to say anything like this at all, so don’t paint Catholic apologetics with the same brush as anti-Catholic rhetoric. That’s not at all fair. We have an obligation to tell the truth, even if people don’t want to hear it. Jesus certainly did and look what happened to him!

Very sad and unChristianlike. It makes me sick sometimes, particularly when I hear this out of fellow Catholics.
.

What’s sad and unChristianlike is you telling Catholics that we are not supposed to correct false teaching or not tell people they are in danger when they do things that will jeopardize their souls. It is our duty to do exactly that. If you can’t do that it’s because you don’t have a firm grasp of what apologetics is, what the Church teaches, and so shouldn’t be attempting to engage in it.