Question for Episcopalians

[estesbob]

mikew262:

Oh please! I just quoted scripture to you, a very powerful piece of scripture. I can see you just blew that off. As Christians, we all believe in the same basic truths. Yes, Catholic and Protestants have some significant differences, but I think they share most of the important ones.

It’s a crying shame that Christians of different denominations have so little regard for each other. I hang other around Christian forums sometimes and I see the same thing out of some of them. “Catholics are all heretics and they are going straight to Hell, unless they repent., blah, blah, blah”.

Very sad and unChristianlike. It makes me sick sometimes, particularly when I hear this out of fellow Catholics.
.

Fellow catholics? You dont accept all the teachings of our Chutch and yet call those of us who do un-christian. It if obvious you do not have a clue as to what our Church’s teachings are on how salvation is acquired. The greatest service you can do for you non-Catholic friends is not water down our teachings and tell them we are all alike-the greatest thing you can do is witness to them that Salvation comes through the Holy Catholic Church.

 

[GKC]

Writer:

The issue of women as priests is a complicated one, and maybe not the best area to focus on too much in a discussion like this, but there was another Anglican named C.S. Lewis who had some major concerns, too. I would suggest you read Lewis’ essay entitled “Priesteses in the Church” and his book (a collection of essays) called the *Fern-Seed and Elephants. *The latter collection, in particular, is a little less direct on the details of this particular issue, but it focuses more on the general loss of orthodoxy within the Anglican tradition. He even makes a comment about missionaries soon being needed to the Anglican Church in the west, and I understand this is happening now. As a convert from ECUSA, my family could not be happier that we have left the moral relativism of the ECUSA behind us.

Heartily concur on the Lewis recommendations.

GKC

 

[mikew262]

Della:

If I had said that anyone is going to hell for not believing in the Catholic Church your accusation might carry some weight, but I said no such thing. I went way out of my way not to say anything like this at all, so don’t paint Catholic apologetics with the same brush as anti-Catholic rhetoric. That’s not at all fair. We have an obligation to tell the truth, even if people don’t want to hear it. Jesus certainly did and look what happened to him!

What’s sad and unChristianlike is you telling Catholics that we are not supposed to correct false teaching or not tell people they are in danger when they do things that will jeopardize their souls. It is our duty to do exactly that. If you can’t do that it’s because you don’t have a firm grasp of what apologetics is, what the Church teaches, and so shouldn’t be attempting to engage in it.

I didn’t say that you said non-catholics are going to hell. I said I saw something similiar to that on a non-catholic site. However, there are some on this forum that hint this very strongly (risk their immortal soul, etc.)

What is false teaching to a Catholic is not to a non-Catholic. They feel just as strongly about their faith as you do. How about letting God be the judge of what is right and what is not. You practicse your faith the way you want, and let them practice their faith the way they want. Chances are both the Catholic and non-Catholic will be sharing the same reward, if they’ve lived their lives properly, and followed Christ’s teachings.

Now this is my opinion everybody, I’m not quoting Catholic Doctrine. Some folks feel I might be confusing somebody.

 

[mikew262]

estesbob:

Fellow catholics? You dont accept all the teachings of our Chutch and yet call those of us who do un-christian. It if obvious you do not have a clue as to what our Church’s teachings are on how salvation is acquired. The greatest service you can do for you non-Catholic friends is not water down our teachings and tell them we are all alike-the greatest thing you can do is witness to them that Salvation comes through the Holy Catholic Church.

Oh brother! I did not call anybody unchristian, I said the act of hinting to non-catholics that they are lost unless they accept Catholic Church as the one true church is unchristian, which you just did again in this last post. Talking to somebody about the good merits of being Catholic and why you think it is the one true Church is one thing. However, telling them basically, it’s us or Hell is over the line.

 

[mikew262]

I started this post and I hope folks who want to constructively post here and stay within the focus of the thread, do so.

Unfortunately, it’s turned into a running written battle between me and a couple of others, and we wandered away from the thread topic. This was not my intent. I apologize for my part in that.

I will stay inactive for awhile, and hopefully the thread will refocus.

 

[Anglo-catholic]

After almost 5 years as an Episcopalian/ now Anglican - the attraction I find is the preservation of the sense of God’s mysteries.

Man’s nature is to seek an explanation and then say an interpretation is right or wrong. It is sufficient for an Anglican to say something cannot be explained and is a mystery. This does leave room for a range of beliefs, but what is wrong with that. Some things of God cannot be explained - nor could we fully understand them.

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 1 Co 13:12

For humans to discuss or try to understand the Eucharist (transubstantiation) or the Incarnation is to make ourselves intellectually the equal of God. It is not necessary to know the recipe and the cooking method in order to eat a dinner.

A typical Anglican approach is :

“He was the Word that spake it, He took the bread and brake it; And what that word did make it, I do believe and take it.”

One must acknowledge that what a Catholic (priest or communicant) believes or does not believe about the Eucharist does not change its efficacy - It is the Body of Christ - which is why I feel slighted when I an told that I should not take communion when I go to a Catholic Mass.

It is hard to imagine that at the early ages of the Church - that all liturgies were the same or that there was not a range of different understanding of certain doctrines (heresy aside).

Yes, the lack of central authority can be troublesome. But so can that central authority. (The Orthodox seem to be surviving quite well!)

Let us all delight in what we share instead of drawing lines in the sand. God Bless

 

[Anglo-catholic]

Wow! I posted before I read all the prior messages. My first post in over a year. I see not much has changed.

I was asked to leave my Roman Catholic parish after 5 years of teaching CCD. - I guess the Church is the better for it! (Just being sarcastic - but I am afraid that some might agree).

But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. "For he who is not against us is for us. Mk 9:39-40

 

[UtahMaggie]

Contarini:

The Episcopal Book of Common Prayer commemorates pre-Reformation saints–post-Reformation it includes only Anglicans. I dislike this myself, and prefer the Church of England’s calendar, which includes Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant saints from the past 500 years.

“Recognizing” a saint is not as official a matter for us as it is for you. But there is an official process by which someone gets included in the calendar–one General Convention has to approve the inclusion provisionally, and the next General Convention has to confirm the decision for it to become permanent. C. S. Lewis was put in the calendar provisionally in 2003 (GC 2003 is better known for more controversial decisions!), and therefore is up for a second vote this year (GC meets every three years).

Edwin

Thanks for your answer, Edwin.

Maggie

 

[ABalch]

Anglo-catholic:

Wow! I posted before I read all the prior messages. My first post in over a year. I see not much has changed.

I was asked to leave my Roman Catholic parish after 5 years of teaching CCD. - I guess the Church is the better for it! (Just being sarcastic - but I am afraid that some might agree).

But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. "For he who is not against us is for us. Mk 9:39-40

Anglo-Catholic,

I would truly be interested in hearing why you say you were asked to leave your parish. Perhaps, you could further expand on this statement. Unless you were doing something totally outlandish, I really can’t see any parish telling you to leave.

Pax vobiscum,
ABalch

 

[Anglo-catholic]

To ABalsh - How I left:

I took out a book on the Marian doctrines from the parish library - Was asked if I was trying to convert someone. I said no that I had doubts about these dogmas. The person informed the pastor and I was told that I could not teach CCD or participate in the Evangelization Committee any longer.

I never violated my oath to teach nothing but Church doctrine to CCD classes as I was teaching Old Testament and I am well aware of what the doctrines are. I did not share my doubts with anyone other than that mention to that person in the library.

Realizing that to “pretend” I was a Catholic was not being honest so I left. Leaving was a great struggle over more than a year. I read many books by Protestants that converted to Catholicism to see how they dealt with this dogma. Basically it is on Papal/ Church authority.

I do not advise anyone who is Catholic and believes the papal declarations to leave. I think one must recognize that the Church is the authority on scripture, etc and you cannot ignore 2000 years of belief when reading scripture, But I am still not ready to accept this on papal authority since I don’t see this matter as a fundamental of salvation and others (such as St Thomas Moore had similar doubts). I am not bitter over this event as I feel I am now more honest to myself.

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; - Phil 2:12

If we take are salvation seriously - we will always be questioning if we got it right. God Bless!

 

[JOHNYJ]

Confusion is the only word that describes the Episcopal church USA. They have been suspended from the world wide Anglican communion. Which makes them just another protestant church in the USA.
Parishs that revolt against the aberations of the Episcopal chuch USA.Now can remain in the world wide Anglican communion by associating with one of the foreign provinces of the communion. Confusion only word that fits.

 

[billkarr]

Della:

I know the Scriptures as well as you do and what you did was quote it out of context of both history and Sacred Tradition, which is why you misapplied it. Catholics and and Protestants don’t “share most of the important [beliefs].” Protestants merely retained Catholic ones that they wanted to and dumped those they didn’t want to believe, and then added several of their own, which they had no authority from God to do. Hardly the same thing at all!

If I had said that anyone is going to hell for not believing in the Catholic Church your accusation might carry some weight, but I said no such thing. I went way out of my way not to say anything like this at all, so don’t paint Catholic apologetics with the same brush as anti-Catholic rhetoric. That’s not at all fair. We have an obligation to tell the truth, even if people don’t want to hear it. Jesus certainly did and look what happened to him!

What’s sad and unChristianlike is you telling Catholics that we are not supposed to correct false teaching or not tell people they are in danger when they do things that will jeopardize their souls. It is our duty to do exactly that. If you can’t do that it’s because you don’t have a firm grasp of what apologetics is, what the Church teaches, and so shouldn’t be attempting to engage in it.

I can’t believe what is being said. First of all Catholic and Protestants do believe in the same basic faith. We both believe in the same God weboth believe that Jesus died for our sins and rose to distroy death, One God in three Persons. The prove of this is that both Catholic and Protestant Churches say The Nicene Creed. Some of these post are so unchristian. I’m a Catholic and I know that the Church teaches on what I said above and I think you will agree with me that it is true. The Protestant also teach the above so they also have thrurth in their churches.Yes I know that we differ on some theology but that is the fault of men. None of us know what God is thinking.

 

[estesbob]

billkarr:

I can’t believe what is being said. First of all Catholic and Protestants do believe in the same basic faith. We both believe in the same God weboth believe that Jesus died for our sins and rose to distroy death, One God in three Persons. The prove of this is that both Catholic and Protestant Churches say The Nicene Creed. Some of these post are so unchristian. I’m a Catholic and I know that the Church teaches on what I said above and I think you will agree with me that it is true. The Protestant also teach the above so they also have thrurth in their churches.Yes I know that we differ on some theology but that is the fault of men. None of us know what God is thinking.

There are profound differences between the Caholic Church and protestant denominations. Differences as to Sacraments, differences on how one is saved, differences on the nature of the Eucharist, differences in the nature of the clergy, differences on the role of the laity, on and on and on. When you claim that there are not you denigrate pur Church-the one True Church, the Church founded by Jesus Christ himself. The ONLY Church that is entrusted with the fullness of TRUTH as passed down for 2,000 years via a clergy and Popes that have direct lineage to the Apostles themselves.

You are right that the differences in theology are the fualtt of men-the men who seperated themselves and millions and millions of people from the One True Church some 500. Our mission is to bring them back to the fullness of TRUTH. You dont do that by minimizing the great harm they have done to themselves and others by embracing a watered down, plale refelction of our Faith.

 

[billkarr]

estesbob:

There are profound differences between the Caholic Church and protestant denominations. Differences as to Sacraments, differences on how one is saved, differences on the nature of the Eucharist, differences in the nature of the clergy, differences on the role of the laity, on and on and on. When you claim that there are not you denigrate pur Church-the one True Church, the Church founded by Jesus Christ himself. The ONLY Church that is entrusted with the fullness of TRUTH as passed down for 2,000 years via a clergy and Popes that have direct lineage to the Apostles themselves.

You are right that the differences in theology are the fualtt of men-the men who seperated themselves and millions and millions of people from the One True Church some 500. Our mission is to bring them back to the fullness of TRUTH. You dont do that by minimizing the great harm they have done to themselves and others by embracing a watered down, plale refelction of our Faith.

I guess I worded some things wrong. You know that we both have the same basic faithand after that comes the differences. I once heard a Lutheran say that they have the true Church so we all fell that we are in the true Church some fell that Christianity is the true faith and it doesn’t matter want church you belong to. I fell it doesn’t matter want church you go to. My father’s side of my family wasn’t Catholic. I don’t like to think of them not being saved like my Catholic side. That wants make me a very liberal Catholic. I found out you can’t bring anyone back to the Church unless they want to. Some of them believe that we are wrong and to go over to their Church.

 

[estesbob]

billkarr:

I guess I worded some things wrong. You know that we both have the same basic faithand after that comes the differences. I once heard a Lutheran say that they have the true Church so we all fell that we are in the true Church some fell that Christianity is the true faith and it doesn’t matter want church you belong to. I fell it doesn’t matter want church you go to. My father’s side of my family wasn’t Catholic. I don’t like to think of them not being saved like my Catholic side. That wants make me a very liberal Catholic. I found out you can’t bring anyone back to the Church unless they want to. Some of them believe that we are wrong and to go over to their Church.

What is a “very liberal Catholic”?? We are charged with witnessing the TRUTH-not trying to rationalize or condone the deficiencies in faith of our seperated bretheren.

 

[billkarr]

I once walked in an Episcopal and thought I was in a Catholic Church. The priests were in the same vestments and one was even a woman, and the mass was the same as ours and it wasn’t an Anglo Catholic church. The whole service was more Catholic than Protestant. In fact I was going to join but I couldn’t overcome couple of things they were doing. Then I went to a Polish National Catholic Church. It was just like a Roman Catholic mass they also do the same things. Pope John Paul 11 declared them to have apostolic sesseccion so there priests and sacarments are valid. so I joined it after I got a blessing from a Roman priest.

 

[katy]

There are many Catholic wannabes as long as they don’t actually need to embrace the original Catholic faith. I went to a wedding last summer and wondered what a priest was doing in a Lutheran church by himself, no Lutheran minister, or so I thought. Turns out he WAS the Lutheran minister. The fact that they look the same doesn’t mean there are no significant differences. That is why I am no longer Episcopalian. Catholic belief is one option among many. Appearances can be deceiving.

 

[THutch04]

I would say in my experience that the biggest difference is the issue of the Pope. There are other differences, but this is the only one that I can say generally goes across the Anglican spectrum, from high churches to low churches. The other issues, such as the Sacraments, I would not say are universally agreed upon by Anglicans. I will say that I’ve never heard of any Anglicans referring to the change that takes place in the Eucharist as consubstantiation (I don’t know if that was mentioned on this thread or not, but it has been brought up in the past), and the only time I ever heard that was through this forum. I have yet to talk to an actual Anglican or Episcopalian who holds to that belief.

Why I left- I really did not care for the direction in which the Episcopal Church was going, and I decided that I could not really get around the 39 Articles. I know they’re not binding, and you can, in theory, get around that if you really work at it, but it didn’t feel right that I would have to try to look for a loophole to stay in the Episcopal Church. So, I went the Continuing Anglican route and found a TAC parish, which I have been a member of for a few years.

Because it’s been brought up in this thread, I’ll just say that I never really considered the issue of female priests. For several years my parish had a woman priest and she was MUCH more high church than the male priest who took her place. She was actually the person who instilled more Catholic beliefs in me. That being said, it does not bother me that the Catholic Church does not allow female priests. The TAC does not allow it either.

The reason I’m leaving the TAC is because since I am not against a possible reunion between the two Churches, I obviously cannot have any major reasons for not being a Roman Catholic. After some thinking, I realized I didn’t have anything against the Catholic Church, and actually agreed with the Pope’s position. Once I realized this, I did not feel that it was morally right for me to stay in the TAC and wait for a reunion to occur (if it will at all). I understand that there are many reasons others in my position do not do what I did, but for me I did not feel I could remain in the TAC.

That being said, one of the reasons I had a hard time leaving was because I do not necessarily have a problem with not defining certain things (like how exactly the Eucharist becomes the Body and Blood of Christ, for example). Of course, I did learn that I did not disagree with Transubstantiation. There are other reasons why I had a very difficult time with that decision, but I do not have the time to post everything now.

I hope this helps.

 

[billkarr]

estesbob:

What is a “very liberal Catholic”?? We are charged with witnessing the TRUTH-not trying to rationalize or condone the deficiencies in faith of our seperated bretheren.

This thread is about our seperated bretheren. He wanted to know why Episcopal turned Catholic and vicea versa. You seem to want everyone to belief in the truth of the Catholic church.People want to push what they think is the truth ok the truth on them. Telling how wrong they are is not going to bring them to the truth. look at Pope John Paul he went to religious leaders and talk with them. He went to visit the Archbishop of Canterbury gave him a cross and attended one of their services. Thats the way we are going to bring them back to the true faith by showing them we are not better than they are. Sometimes to witness the truth you have to look beyon it. It took men to separate us it going to take men to get us back. Jesus wanted us to be one and if we have to rationlize so be it. This is getting so far away from what this thread is suppose to be, so goodbye

 

[estesbob]

billkarr:

This thread is about our seperated bretheren. He wanted to know why Episcopal turned Catholic and vicea versa. You seem to want everyone to belief in the truth of the Catholic church

What a moment. Of course I want everyone to share in the fullness of Truth as can be found ONLY the Catholic Church. Tahts should be the attitude of EVERY Catholic.