Question for former Protestants

[pablope]

i never called it a tradition of man but of God. i don’t believe in praying to saint because it is not found in scripture.

How did God accomplish the codifying of the Canon?

Let me ask you this question: Why do you accept that Mark authored the gospel of Mark? Where in the Bible does Mark claim authorship of the gospel of Mark? After you have found this chapter and verse, what is your basis for accepting the Gospel of Mark as scripture?

After you find the answer to the question above…who is then the pillar and ground of truth?

Praying to saints…here is the biblical precedents…scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

1 Cor. 1:2; Rom. 1:7 - we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ. Proof:

Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 - in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called “saints.”

Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 - in these verses, we also see that “saints” also refer to those in heaven who united with us.

Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23 – we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love.

1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 - God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 - “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.

Heb. 12:1 - the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation.

1 Peter 2:5 - we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ’s work of redemption.

Rev. 1:6, 5:10 - Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God. Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God’s people.

James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.

1 Tim 2:5-6 - therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the most glory. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participation.

 

[David]

i never called it a tradition of man but of God. i don’t believe in praying to saint because it is not found in scripture.

The canon of Scripture is not found in Scripture either. This is what I mean by inconsistencies.

Peace
David

 

[Newsy]

i never called it a tradition of man but of God. i don’t believe in praying to saint because it is not found in scripture.

It is addressed in the duetero’s, of course if you reject those:shrug:. The fact remains that we came from the Jews, they pray to those passed on, we believe them to be alive so we ask them to pray for us.
I’ll stop derailing now. slowly sneaks out of the room

 

[kra130]

How did God accomplish the codifying of the Canon?

Let me ask you this question: Why do you accept that Mark authored the gospel of Mark? Where in the Bible does Mark claim authorship of the gospel of Mark? After you have found this chapter and verse, what is your basis for accepting the Gospel of Mark as scripture?

After you find the answer to the question above…who is then the pillar and ground of truth?

Praying to saints…here is the biblical precedents…scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

1 Cor. 1:2; Rom. 1:7 - we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ. Proof:

Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 - in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called “saints.”

Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 - in these verses, we also see that “saints” also refer to those in heaven who united with us.

Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23 – we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love.

1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 - God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 - “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.

Heb. 12:1 - the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation.

1 Peter 2:5 - we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ’s work of redemption.

Rev. 1:6, 5:10 - Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God. Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God’s people.

James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.

1 Tim 2:5-6 - therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the most glory. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participation.

If all Christians are saints then why do some attain sainthood in the Catholic church and is it not more probable that the idea of having patron saints comes from the Roman tradition of having patron lords. same thing as Christmas being a substitute for the winter solstice. as far as the canonization of scripture i don’t disagree with the catholic church we know that Mark wrote the gospel because we have hundreds of manuscripts that we can use to prove this. all truth comes from God. Praying to saints is different from having saints pray for you. i have a host of people who pray for me on my behalf but they are living. However when i pray i pray to God the Father in the power of the Holy Spirit and Christ himself intercedes before the Father on my behalf his stored righteousness is more then enough to cover me.

 

[David]

i have a host of people who pray for me on my behalf but they are living.

Hello Kra130
Can you prove the saints in heaven are not alive?

see Mark 12:27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living;

Peace
David

 

[Della]

If all Christians are saints then why do some attain sainthood in the Catholic church and is it not more probable that the idea of having patron saints comes from the Roman tradition of having patron lords. same thing as Christmas being a substitute for the winter solstice. as far as the canonization of scripture i don’t disagree with the catholic church we know that Mark wrote the gospel because we have hundreds of manuscripts that we can use to prove this. all truth comes from God. Praying to saints is different from having saints pray for you. i have a host of people who pray for me on my behalf but they are living. However when i pray i pray to God the Father in the power of the Holy Spirit and Christ himself intercedes before the Father on my behalf his stored righteousness is more then enough to cover me.

The canonized saints are examples to the faithful–it merely means they are listed as saints whose lives, writings, etc. can be trusted to show us Christ. The Church celebrates all other saints, the “unknown” ones, on the Feast of All Saints Day, November 2.

Patron saints are those saints whose lives involved some aspect of the groups they are patrons of. St. Joseph, for example is the patron of husbands and fathers, among other groups, such as carpenters.

Christmas is not a substitute for the winter solstice. Winter solstice is the 21st, Christmas is on the 25th. If anything, it took the place of the Roman sun god whose day was celebrated on the 25th because it is evident that the days are getting longer, once again, hence the sun has “triumphed” over the darkness. An apt day to adopt for the Son of God whose rays of eternal light have triumphed over the ultimate darkness of eternal damnation. To put it another way, the 25th was “baptized” as a Christian holiday rather than a pagan one. Still, Christmas wasn’t a solemnity on par with Easter for a long time. It was merely a Mass celebrated to remember the Nativity of the Lord. A little real history goes a long way towards dispelling myths.

Praying to saints is exactly the same as having a friend pray for you. Praying is not worship. In order for there to be worship a sacrifice must be offered. We do not offer any sacrifices to saints when we ask their intercession and heavenly aid (which is accomplished not through their power but that of the Holy Spirit). Of course, anyone can go directly to God in prayer. We Catholics do that all the time. We have a special liturgy (service) just for that called the Liturgy of the Hours in which our religious (nuns, monks, brothers, etc.) pray throughout the day. Lay people can also pray it. I happen to do the first hour, Morning Prayer, as well as Evening Prayer every day (at least I try to).

Some days are dedicated to our saints, who pray with us and for us. We ask them to pray for us because they are alive with God (as the Scriptures verses showed), they can no longer sin, and they only have God’s interest at heart so when we ask them to pray for us we are asking that God’s will be done, without any self-interest on our part or fudging of the truth, etc. Their prayers are always pure, while we come with a host of conflicting desires. They sort out what is best for us because they pray for us as our friends, and friends of God, as well.

Christ’s rigtheousness is enough to “cover” all of us. But we aren’t just “covered”, we are cleansed through baptism and reconciliation. Saints are the “Church Triumphant” while we here on earth are the “Church Militant”, fighting against sin in ourselves and in the world. But, we are all one family, one Body of Christ, not divided. As St. Paul told us, “neither death nor life can separate us from the love of God”. I often ask my heavenly family to pray for me and to aid me because they are the part of the Body of Christ that is perfect and whose prayers are pure in intention. They help make me holy/perfect as the Father is holy/perfect, just as Christ commanded us to be. St. Paul told us that we are one body, with one baptism for the forgiveness of sins and one doctrine, not many. Through our baptism we are one, even if we are nota all members of the same ecclesiatical community. Anyone can ask for prayer from anyone here on earth or in heaven. That truth should give us all joy instead of be a source of division.

 

[Newsy]

If all Christians are saints then why do some attain sainthood in the Catholic church and is it not more probable that the idea of having patron saints comes from the Roman tradition of having patron lords. same thing as Christmas being a substitute for the winter solstice. as far as the canonization of scripture i don’t disagree with the catholic church we know that Mark wrote the gospel because we have hundreds of manuscripts that we can use to prove this. all truth comes from God. Praying to saints is different from having saints pray for you. i have a host of people who pray for me on my behalf but they are living. However when i pray i pray to God the Father in the power of the Holy Spirit and Christ himself intercedes before the Father on my behalf his stored righteousness is more then enough to cover me.

I have never heard anyone, Catholic or protestant, pray in any other name than Jesus. You are misunderstanding the idea. The same action is happening whether someone uses the terms, “asking for intercession”, “asking them to pray for me” or some still use the phrase “prayer to saints”. Christ is always our intercessor and our hope, prayer of the saints is just asking somebody in heaven to pray for you also. Kinda reminds me of the “prayers of a righteous man availeth much” passage.

 

[pablope]

If all Christians are saints then why do some attain sainthood in the Catholic church and is it not more probable that the idea of having patron saints comes from the Roman tradition of having patron lords. same thing as Christmas being a substitute for the winter solstice.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

If all Christians are saints then why do some attain sainthood in the Catholic church and is it not more probable that the idea of having patron saints comes from the Roman tradition of having patron lords. same thing as Christmas being a substitute for the winter solstice. as far as the canonization of scripture i don’t disagree with the catholic church we know that Mark wrote the gospel because we have hundreds of manuscripts that we can use to prove this. all truth comes from God.** Praying to saints is different from having saints pray for you. i have a host of people who pray for me on my behalf but they are living. However when i pray i pray to God the Father in the power of the Holy Spirit and Christ himself intercedes before the Father on my behalf his stored righteousness is more then enough to cover me**.

Um, we ask the saints to pray for us. And since when is praying to the saints wrong? Pray doesn’t equal worship. Saints in heaven are living. And I won’t respond to the “cover me” part in order to not derail the thread and the Christmas part, but the saints are praying with you like any other Christian (except they are outside of time and perfected in God, so their prayers are a LOT more effective). When saints are canonized we can know that they are in heaven, versus some random person who may be in purgatory or we’re not sure.

 

[Newsy]

However when i pray i pray to God the Father in the power of the Holy Spirit and Christ himself intercedes before the Father on my behalf his stored righteousness is more then enough to cover me.

What do you mean by, “his stored righteousness is more then enough to cover me”? Maybe we could start another thread so as not to derail this one.

 

[anodos]

I have NO idea. It was this question that tore me AWAY from Christianity for some time so… I asked it of myself and had no answer and so tossed the Bible aside and began to live my own version of Christianity…

This was also my experience until I became interested in Catholicism.

As a younger teenager, though, when I still accepted “Scripture Alone”, I would have told you that the canon of scripture in my bible was correct because it had been divinely preserved; thus the Greek Matthew was really scripture and the rumored Aramaic Matthew was simply a book that probably used to exist but had disappeared. (“Fairytales” like Tobit and Judith were excluded; they were religious myths, not scripture. Even at the time, I wasn’t sure why Tobit was a myth and Jonah was not.) But this was me as a kid; grownups adhering to “sola-scriptura” probably have firmer arguments for scripture being more than just a man-made tradition.

 

[EricFilmer]

Hello all,
When you were Protestant how would you have answered this question? Why isn’t the canon of Scripture a tradition of men?

Peace
David

When I was a Protestant, these kinds of questions never occurred to me.

When I finally started pondering such things, my journey into Catholicism began.

 

[SaintPatrick333]

In all my 20 years in the Assemblies of God I never once heard that the books of the Bible were chosen by the Catholic Church. Never. The Bible had simply fallen out of heaven, as far as we were concerned. The Apostles wrote the NT and it was preserved by the “real Christians” who managed to rid it of the “bad books” and restore it to the purity of the early Church, we were told.

We were taught that everything Catholics believed, except the very few pearls scattered amongst the dung of Catholicism, was a “tradition of men” invented to ensnare Catholics and keep them bound in servitude to the pope. I kid you not. I hope the rhetoric has modified over the years, but the very word “tradition” meant “lie” to me then. I was ignorant on so many levels I can’t begin to describe it.

I know what you mean. An ex girlfriend of mine several years ago belonged to an assembly of God church. This was long before I was searching for a church myself, I was simply content believing in God, thinking that was enough. Towards the end of the relationship I was considering the Catholic Church. That did not go over well with her parents since she was the youngest of three, the eldest married a catholic, the middle engaged to a catholic and they couldn’t deal with losing their baby to the presumedly “pagan” catholic church lol I attended one service at the naperville, il church and it was a truly scary experience. I knew in my heart I wasn’t where I was supposed to be. Thankfully with great patience, God guided me home to His Church and I’ll never leave! God Bless you for heeding God’s call and seeing through the lies and distortions found in the assemblies of God. Loving people in my personal experience with them, but with an ingrained distaste for the Catholic Church. I pray they can all someday, see the error of their ways and come home to Christ in His Church. God Bless!

 

[David]

Thank each and everyone of you who responded to my initial question.

It appears that this question is very difficult for Protestants to address.

If the canon of Scripture is a tradition of man it would not be binding. Yet the Bible is their sole authority.

If the the early church had the authority of God, then the canon is not a tradition of man. Yet if the early church had the authority of God, why do they not now?

So, love it or hate it, you have to admit the Catholicism is more consistent than Protestantism.

Thanks again for the education.
Peace to all
David

 

[thistle]

Such a question never crossed my mind.

 

[Subrosa]

If all Christians are saints then why do some attain sainthood in the Catholic church

We recognize those who, by their virtues, have attained the goal of living in the heavenly kingdom. Sounds like works, but is not. It is obedience to God. It is a continuation, of sorts, of those recognized in Hebrews 11. We consider their way of life and strive to imitate their faith. (Heb 13:7)

is it not more probable that the idea of having patron saints comes from the Roman tradition of having patron lords

No. This statement is conjecture. We understand that God gives great responsibilities to those who persevere in faith. (Matthew 25:14-30.) We understand what those responsibilities are through their works here on earth. (Matthew 7:15-20). As we know false prophets, we also true prophets: by their fruits… i.e. their works here on earth. Patron saints are those whose works here on earth are also recognized in heaven.

same thing as Christmas being a substitute for the winter solstice

Again, partially a conjecture. Early Christianity chose to substitute pagan holidays with Christian holidays in order to eradicate the pagan holiday, a way of “making your enemies your footstool.” (Heb 1:13, Ps 110:1, Mt 22:44) Christian holidays in essence “step” on pagan holidays.

as far as the canonization of scripture i don’t disagree with the catholic church. we know that Mark wrote the gospel because we have hundreds of manuscripts that we can use to prove this.

All have the same tradition…that the gospel was written by Mark. None claim to have Mark as author.

Praying to saints is different from having saints pray for you

The saints present our prayers to God. Rev 8:1-4

i have a host of people who pray for me on my behalf but they are living.

Exactly the point: the saints in heaven are alive and remain a part of the Body of Christ.

However when i pray i pray to God the Father in the power of the Holy Spirit and Christ himself intercedes before the Father on my behalf his stored righteousness is more then enough to cover me.

Are you saying that you have never asked anyone to pray on your behalf or those whom you love? A person in the hospital for instance? Read and contemplate Tim 2:1-5. You will see that Christ, the One Mediator empowers us to pray for others, even those who we ask to pray for us. It is precisely because we are a part of His mystical body that we can do this. Those saints alive in heaven are empowered the same way.

Subrosa