Question for goitalone or any other Adventist

[MarysRoses]

He did say so in His 4th commandment.

Sad that so many have forgotten and cannot see how plain as day that is.

This is a circular argument.

My original questions have not been answered.

How do Adventists know that Saturday must be kept to fulfill the commandment?

While flameburns generously undertook defending the Adventist position, He was not able to give a clear, biblical command binding on Christians to keep Saturday holy. In fact, in his last post he said: “Again, you and I agree that the principles expounded by Paul give us liberty to worship on Sunday.”

And secondly, how do Adventists know for sure the day they are keeping is the Saturday they believe the commandment requires?

If God intended we keep a specific day of the week as the sabbath, and it was so important that to worship on the wrong day would cost us our salvation, don’t you think He not only would have been explicit in His direction to do so, (there is NO explicit command for Christians to keep sabbath in the NT), but also have made it easy to identify which day was the sabbath?

The ‘seventh day’ varies with locale and culture. The date line is an entirely man made artifact, arbitrary and of entirely human invention.

Why does this matter? When Adventists are rushing around on Samoa on Friday evening, finishing their work for the week and preparing to begin their sabbath, at the very same time, watching the same setting sun, Adventists on Fiji, Tonga and New Zealand are watching Saturday evening pass away, and with it their sabbath. Whether its Friday or Saturday, depends on where you live in relation to the dateline. The sun sets in Tonga only a few minutes after Samoa, but becuase of the dateline, its an entirely different day.

worldatlas.com/aatlas/infopage/dateline.htm

Adventists on Hawaii and Kiribati (another South Pacific Island) have an even stranger problem. Kiribati, by an act of their government, moved the dateline so that all the islands in their country would be on the same side, and have the same dates.

Kiribati is south of Hawaii, would be in the same time zone, except for the date. So, on Saturday, while Adventists are going to church in Hawaii, Christians in Kiribati are going to Church at the very same time, on SUNDAY! Adventists in Kiribati would be going around doing their secular work and recreation on Sunday, while its Sabbath in Hawaii.

Who’s keeping the ‘real’ sabbath? How can we know?

Where does the biblical sabbath begin in relation to the dateline?

Again, i’m not against keeping a sabbath on whatever day you want to, I’m pointing out it is not easy to be sure exactly when and were this Saturday sabbath can be found.

The usual answer is ‘keep it wherever you are’ or ‘do your best’.

I find those answers more in keeping with Christian freedom from Jewish law than in keeping with the idea sabbath must be Saturday to ‘count’.

Remember, Adventists not only say sabbath is/will be a matter of salvation, they make out the Papacy to be the ‘beast’ for ‘changing’ it. (I don’t agree anything was ‘changed’ but thats a topic for another thread).

MarysRoses

 

[goitalone]

Well let’s slow down here a bit…you type too much in each reply lol…too confusing especially when I am trying to get my PC fixed back to where I want it.

I would say, you must be very careful where you get yer info from…for example, I have seen things that made me seriously wonder about this new Wikipedia:

Does Wikipedia need to be fixed?
Posted September 17 | 18 comments
Marshall has a post up about Citizendium. Wikipedia co-founder Larry Sanger is the founder and it will be a forked version of the popular site with experts who have the final say on whether or not changes will go through.

Marshall asks whether wikipedia really needs to be “fixed” and suggests it doesn’t.

I think it does. While wikipedia appears to be open to all, I’ve seen numerous examples of changes getting immediately deleted for what appears to be political reasons rather than the pursuit of pure knowledge. And I’ve also seen people be attacked for making changes that appear to be factual and correct.

The TechCrunch listing on wikipedia has a number of errors. But there is no way in hell I’d ever think about fixing those errors. The wikipedia community has completely intimidated me to the point where making a change to that site is unthinkable.

So I do think Wikipedia needs to be fixed.

and…

Wikipedia Condemned By World News Media

Wikipedia has been dismissed by both professional journalists and
the academic community as a site which censors facts and serves as a gossip and rumor mill.

Jerusalem ----July 6…From Reuters, The Chicago Tribune, PC Magazine, and CNN to The Washington Post, Sydney Morning Herald, USA Today and ZDNet, the world’s global news media is today clearly questioning the credibility of Wikipedia.

(I had already felt there was something wrong before I even read these things)

I believe the Bible…its been around longer and has been protected by God as I have faith His seven day weekly cycle has also since the creation week of Genesis. : )

Still busy fixing PC…more to come…

 

[MarysRoses]

Wikipedia has been dismissed by both professional journalists and
the academic community as a site which censors facts and serves as a gossip and rumor mill.

yeah, this is EXACTLY my point, about the only secular, non religious source refering to that battle is wikipedia. Not a reliable source! I was not depending on wiki, but pointing out its one of the few places that references it.

If Adventist prophecy interpretations are correct, the dates should be verifyable from secular, historically reliable sources.

I believe the Bible…its been around longer and has been protected by God as I have faith His seven day weekly cycle has also since the creation week of Genesis. : )

Still busy fixing PC…more to come…

You have faith, and of course faith is a good thing. But what reasons can you give me to have faith in Adventist interpretations? I remember being taught in Adventist sabbath school that the 7 day week was universal around the world and in all cultures, and that was proof of Adventist teaching.

Then I started reading non adventist books about other cultures and discovered that it was not universal.

Just one example, the Chacabo indians in Bolivia do not have a seven day week in their culture. They do not even have a word for ‘seventh’. They do not even have a number system that counts up to seven. When and what day should they keep the sabbath?

MarysRoses

I’ll try to make shorter posts, there’s just so much to say!

 

[goitalone]

Are you single? I think you need a little SDA in… …nm, just kidding…LOL!

You sure are stubborn…if you want to believe the dates are wrong then no one can stop you. It’s perfectly clear to me all I have seen, heard, read and have studied.

I will never understand why some people can’t see the Sabbath truth of the Bible…I guess they have their reasons tho.

I am not sure how in God’s universe anyone could possibly deny these prophecies and Sabbaths truths or that they could mean anything other than what it plainly shows and describes but…the Bible foretells that these things would been sealed up and then opened in the last days for us to understand.

Yet tho…it also predicts what is going on now too… armageddon is going on as we speak…the spirtiual war of who will worship the beast and who worship God…the sealing of God and the 666 is going on right now I believe.

So, I pray God’s blessings for you.

I am pretty sure this thread has run it’s course, become pretty pointless and honestly feel it a waste of both of our time. I have other more important work to do.

So, you take care!

Charlie (goitalone)

P.S. This is the link that started all of this…I will leave it one last time and pray it will help guide someone to what I truely believe are God’s last days message of truth to ALL.

Videos ALL Should See!

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Charlie:

One question for you. As an Adventist, you take great stock in the Bible and the words of our Lord.

I have two questions that Adventists (including my sister-in-law) have never been able to answer, maybe you could help.

1. If at Cana, Jesus changed the water into ‘grape juice,’ why is the Greek word “oinos” used which has only one meaning: wine?
2. Why pick and choose the dietary rules from the OT when Jesus said, “Hear and understand. It is not what enters one’s mouth that defiles that person; but what comes out of the mouth is what defiles one.” in Matthew 15:10-11?

I hope I hear soon

 

[MarysRoses]

Are you single? I think you need a little SDA in… …nm, just kidding…LOL!

You sure are stubborn…if you want to believe the dates are wrong then no one can stop you. It’s perfectly clear to me all I have seen, heard, read and have studied.

Its not a matter of belief, its a matter of history. The date I commented on, which Adventists claim is the date of the establishment of papal authority is WRONG. According to secular, written, historical records. If the dates are wrong, the interpretation is wrong. I’m not saying Adventists are bad people or that they don’t love Jesus and believe the bible. I AM strongly saying their interpretations do not stand up to actual history and close examination.

I will never understand why some people can’t see the Sabbath truth of the Bible…I guess they have their reasons tho.

Yes we have our reasons, chief among them St. Paul’s comment:

Colossians 2:16-17

16
Let no one, then, pass judgment on you in matters of food and drink or with regard to a festival or new moon or sabbath. 8
17
These are shadows of things to come; the reality belongs to Christ.

I am not sure how in God’s universe anyone could possibly deny these prophecies and Sabbaths truths or that they could mean anything other than what it plainly shows and describes but…the Bible foretells that these things would been sealed up and then opened in the last days for us to understand.

Yet tho…it also predicts what is going on now too… armageddon is going on as we speak…the spirtiual war of who will worship the beast and who worship God…the sealing of God and the 666 is going on right now I believe.

You havn’t shown me any reason I should believe your interpretations.

I am pretty sure this thread has run it’s course, become pretty pointless and honestly feel it a waste of both of our time. I have other more important work to do.

I’ve enjoyed our discussion. I have similar conversations with Adventist friends and family. I’ve never gotten any answers, people are always enthusiastic to convince me, then when they hear my views, it gets dropped. The only thing I can think is that they don’t have any answers.

So, you take care!

Charlie (goitalone)

You too!

MarysRoses

 

[Katie1723]

Something I never quite understood. I thought the days of the week as we know them is a rather recent innovation. Maybe a better question is when did the days of the week officially get the names they have today? Unless I am mistaken, Genesis doesn’t say, On Monday, God said “Let there be light”…

Kathy

 

[goitalone]

No, there were no English days of the week as there was no English back then, however, in over 105 languages the name for the seventh day, or Saturday, is “the Sabbath.” For example, Saturday in Spanish is “Sabado.” In Italy, “Sabbato.” In Russia, “Subbota.” In Poland, “Sobota.” Etc.

Under Constantine, the first day of the week was named after the sun, followed by the moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn

Another easy way to confirm the day is to just look up Saturday in any normal dictionary. Here are two. Saturday n. the seventh day of the week; day after Friday; day of worship among Jews and some Christians. Saturday n. the seventh and last day of the week: the Sabbath.

Archaeologists have uncovered many clay tablets, and on some are recorded eclipses. These are Babylonian Tablets, made many years before Christ. Any astronomer will testify to the accurate timing of the movements of heavenly bodies such as the sun, moon and stars. An eclipse can be predicted with split second timing. Examining the Babylonian tablets it can be calculated that we have not lost one thousandth of a second in time, let alone a whole day.

Luke 23:54-24:1 “And that day was the PREPARATION, and the sabbath drew on. And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and RESTED THE SABBATH DAY ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT. Now upon the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.”

The Sabbath was so important to them, they did not even finish embalming His body til Sunday morning!

 

[Dabnagit]

Jonathan,
I know you directed your questions to Charlie, so I hope you don’t mind my two cents.

Charlie:

One question for you. As an Adventist, you take great stock in the Bible and the words of our Lord.

I have two questions that Adventists (including my sister-in-law) have never been able to answer, maybe you could help.

1. If at Cana, Jesus changed the water into ‘grape juice,’ why is the Greek word “oinos” used which has only one meaning: wine?

I can see your point on this, it is listed only as wine. I guess "grape juice” is something of a moral thinking rooted in Jesus and not supporting drunkenness? I don’t know, unless there is some other scriptural reference that can be used that points otherwise, the text “oinos” has to stand on its own as it is written.

1. Why pick and choose the dietary rules from the OT when Jesus said, “Hear and understand. It is not what enters one’s mouth that defiles that person; but what comes out of the mouth is what defiles one.” in Matthew 15:10-11?

I hope I hear soon

This seems to me not a dietary rule, but Jesus’ answer to the washing of hands before eating. (Matthew 15
1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they wash not their hands when they eat bread. )

And as you stated: “Hear and understand. It is not what enters one’s mouth that defiles that person; but what comes out of the mouth is what defiles one.” in Matthew 15:10-11?

Just keep reading and Jesus makes clear his point is not dietary.

"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man. Matt. 15:19-20
Jeff

 

[goitalone]

Thank you… I was just in the middle of answering Jonathan’s questions in a private message about the wine, but hadn’t quite gotten as far as the the second of his two questions…but you have done great in answering.

Jeff has shown you what Jesus has made clear later in that same chapter.

Well done Jeff!

God truths and blessings to you both!

 

[goitalone]

Well, What kind of wine did Jesus drink? Jesus performed this miracle in the Biblical account in Cana making water into wine…but, the word WINE, however, should not be necessarily applied to fermented beverage.

It just means a product of the vineyard.

We can find it too when it is applied to cider which can be used either for the fermented cider or the non fermented one.

As a matter of fact Jesus regarded to non fermented wine when He said “no one pours new wine into old bags”. My Bible says: No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.

Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Matthew 9:16,17 (KJV)

In the Septuagint (A Greek version of the Hebrew Scriptures that dates from the 3rd century B.C.), the hebrew word for grape juice, TIROSH, is translated at least 33 times by the greek word OINOS which means wine, and the adjective “new” is not present. Thus OINOS can clearly represent a non fermented product in the New Testament.

It is fairly unconceivable the fact that Jesus, after the annointment of the Holy Spirit, had produced forbidden substances in wine, knowing what the biggest opponent of an spiritual life is “And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit (Ephesians 5:18).

It can not be accepted that He prepared fermented wine, which is corrupted.

Had Jesus done such thing, He would have spoiled one of the two great symbols of Communion. “For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes”, Paul said referring to wine in the Holy Supper. The Lord’s death was different to every other kind of death in the fact that His Body did not suffer “corruption”.

His Body (soma) never turned into a corpse (ptoma) (Acts 2:27-31).

This word ptoma is never mentioned in the Biblical accounts of passion and death of our Lord.

New researches made by modern Physiology clearly state the contrast between the Lord’s Cup and the Demon’s Cup.

The fruit of the vineyard contains elements that are considered as essential for human body development. The general information about the nutrients it has is the following: 2,8% of albumens, 83.7% of carbohydrates, 1.2% of acids and extracts. And 2.3% of mineral salts. Fermentation destroys 98.5% of albumens, 98% of carbohydrates, 47% of acids and extracts and 76% of mineral salts.

The soma of this grape fruit becomes a ptoma, a liquid corpse…could Jesus, being the Creator, produce a destructive beverage?.

During his earthly ministry, there were two events where He used his creative power – by making water into wine in Cana and when He created bread to feed the hungry people beside the mountain.

Could He have created bread with yeast? Or rotten fishes? Or fermented wine?. It would be absurd thinking that way.

This wine which Jesus produced in Cana was pure grape juice. Jesus is God and God can not contradict Himself and his teachings.

(to be continued)

 

[goitalone]

…continued

Now, let’s see the three hebrew terms used in Old Testament referring to the modern word wine.

1. Yayin, Gen. 9:21

It is the most used, as it appears 140 times. This word is used interchangeably without considering if it is fermented or not

1. Tirosh, Deut. 12:17

It is used 38 times.

Quite the opposite, this word shows this wine is NOT fermented.

Sometimes it is translated as NEW WINE or MUST as well.

1. Shekar, Prov. 31:6

It has the negative meaning and normally it is translated as “strong beverage”. The writers in Old Testament used this term 23 times.

“Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts” Prov 31:6

It is quite interesting to highlight how the Septuagint (a hebraic traduction for greek people, made by 70 wise jews) the word “OINOS” was used to translate the hebrew words YAYIN and TIROSH, but NEVER for SHEKAR or strong (alcoholic) beverage.

The book of Proverbs is full of warnings against the indulgence before wine and alcoholic (strong) beverages (Prov. 20:1; 21:17; 23: 30-31; 31:4, etc.).

Wine laughs at people who drink it (Prov. 20:1), and it “rewards” them with woes, pain, fights and hurt (Prov. 23:29-30).

Wine in New Testament.

References to wine in the New Testamente are not that much as in Old Testament.

The writers of the Old Testament used three greek terms too

1. Oinos It’s the most used of these three terms. It appears 36 times.

It has the same meaning as YAYIN in the hebraic and Septuagint translates it as TIROSH.Then it’s definitely non fermented wine.

1. Síkera This word just appears once in Luke.1:15 where it says “John the Baptist did not drink wine (OINOS) and strong beverage (Síkera)”.
2. Gléukos This word appears only one time too.

Acts 2:13 where it says But others said, scoffing, “They have had too much new wine.” (Gléukos)".

Wine used by Jesus in the Holy Supper.

We can assure with full knowledge that wine used in this event was not fermented. This statement is certain because of the following:

In Passover’s ceremony there could not be any ferment at home as it was symbol of sin. If bread without yeast did not have ferment as its name easily suggests, it is easy to assume that wine could not be fermented.

The whole reading of these verses bring us to this conclusion: Gen. 19:3; Exo. 13:6-7; Lev. 23:5-8; Luc. 22:1.

Therefore wine prepared by Jesus in Cana and wine used in the Holy Supper, they both were not fermented as Jesus would never accept, under no circumstances, to use something that is clearly condemned in the Bible

Hope that helps!

charlie

 

[MarysRoses]

This seems to me not a dietary rule, but Jesus’ answer to the washing of hands before eating. (Matthew 15
1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they wash not their hands when they eat bread. )

And as you stated: “Hear and understand. It is not what enters one’s mouth that defiles that person; but what comes out of the mouth is what defiles one.” in Matthew 15:10-11?

Just keep reading and Jesus makes clear his point is not dietary.

"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man. Matt. 15:19-20

                                                     Jeff

I do not agree this only refers to washing ones hands, but I can see the possibility.

However, Christians are not bound by Jewish dietary law. St. Paul makes that perfectly clear:

Colossians 2:16:

Let no one, then, pass judgment on you in matters of food and drink or with regard to a festival or new moon or sabbath.

Romans 14: 5 & 6:

(For) one person considers one day more important than another, while another person considers all days alike. Let everyone be fully persuaded in his own mind. Whoever observes the day, observes it for the Lord. Also whoever eats, eats for the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while whoever abstains, abstains for the Lord and gives thanks to God.

And one of my favorites:

Romans 14:2 (New International Version)

2 One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.

Adventists are often Vegetarian, I remember some of my earliest questions about the validity of Adventism came when listening to sabbath school teachers try to explain away that verse.

MarysRoses

 

[MarysRoses]

Well, What kind of wine did Jesus drink? Jesus performed this miracle in the Biblical account in Cana making water into wine…but, the word WINE, however, should not be necessarily applied to fermented beverage.

It just means a product of the vineyard.

We can find it too when it is applied to cider which can be used either for the fermented cider or the non fermented one.

As a matter of fact Jesus regarded to non fermented wine when He said “no one pours new wine into old bags”. My Bible says: No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.

Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Matthew 9:16,17 (KJV)

In the Septuagint (A Greek version of the Hebrew Scriptures that dates from the 3rd century B.C.), the hebrew word for grape juice, TIROSH, is translated at least 33 times by the greek word OINOS which means wine, and the adjective “new” is not present. Thus OINOS can clearly represent a non fermented product in the New Testament.

The flaw in this reasoning is that juice from freshly picked grapes contain no alcohol, and that something must be done to the grape to bring about fermented wine.

Grapes begin the process of fermentation on the vine. Its an entirely natural process. Birds and insects in the vineyard get woozy from eating ripe grapes before they are even picked.

Naturally fermented grape juice cannot sustain any micro-organisms harmful to humans. This gives wine a long and ancient heritage of use as drink, medicine and disinfectant. Without the natural fermentation, wine would not have been useful to disinfect wounds.

Fermentation increases as the wine ages. This process was sometimes slowed by putting wine in bottles and storing them in cool places. The resulting wine was milder than some other kinds, but still fermented and still contained alcohol

It is fairly unconceivable the fact that Jesus, after the annointment of the Holy Spirit, had produced forbidden substances in wine, knowing what the biggest opponent of an spiritual life is “And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit (Ephesians 5:18).

A prohibition to drinking to the point of intoxication is not a prohibition against wine itself. Many good things become sinful when abused.

It can not be accepted that He prepared fermented wine, which is corrupted.

Where does it say wine is corrupted?

Had Jesus done such thing, He would have spoiled one of the two great symbols of Communion. “For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes”, Paul said referring to wine in the Holy Supper. The Lord’s death was different to every other kind of death in the fact that His Body did not suffer “corruption”.

His Body (soma) never turned into a corpse (ptoma) (Acts 2:27-31).

Incorruptability is a mark of holiness. Many great saints of the Church have also been granted the priviledge of their body being incorruptable in death. However when a body does decay, it is a process of putrification, not fermentation.

A topic for another thread, but just a comment. You refer to the elements of Holy Communion as ‘symbols’. How can you read the sixth chapter of the Gospel of John and call them mere symbols?

New researches made by modern Physiology clearly state the contrast between the Lord’s Cup and the Demon’s Cup.

‘Demon’s Cup’? Your Victorian roots are showing!

The fruit of the vineyard contains elements that are considered as essential for human body development. The general information about the nutrients it has is the following: 2,8% of albumens, 83.7% of carbohydrates, 1.2% of acids and extracts. And 2.3% of mineral salts. Fermentation destroys 98.5% of albumens, 98% of carbohydrates, 47% of acids and extracts and 76% of mineral salts.

The soma of this grape fruit becomes a ptoma, a liquid corpse…could Jesus, being the Creator, produce a destructive beverage?.

Wine in moderation is not a toxic or destructive beverage. In ancient times, it was the best readily available disinfectant and kept thousands from dying of infected wounds. It aids digestion, lowers cholesterol and helps keep heart disease at bay. Moderate wine drinking is a social pleasure. Nowhere in the bible is it explicit that the moderate use of drink is prohibited. Abuse and over indulgence is prohibited. Gluttony is condemned, should we then just never eat anything? Of course not. Food is a gift from God. Abusing it and over indulging is harmful, not using it as intended.

MarysRoses (Cont.)

 

[MarysRoses]

(Cont. from previous post)

During his earthly ministry, there were two events where He used his creative power – by making water into wine in Cana and when He created bread to feed the hungry people beside the mountain.

Could He have created bread with yeast?

Do you have a problem with yeast breads as well? The bible does not say this bread was unleavened, or that yeast breads are ‘bad’.

Or rotten fishes?

There was no refrigeration at that time. Fish were preserved in a number of ways; salting, drying, pickling and yes, fermentation! Fermented fish were common on tables throughout the Roman Empire. Its unlikely the fish offered and multiplied at that event were fermented as liquamen (fermented fish paste) was not very portable, but its likely they were not fresh. Even if caught the day before, some putrification would have begun to set in, making it likely they were preserved in some way.

Or fermented wine?. It would be absurd thinking that way.

Fermentation is natural. Birds feeding on the grapes prick the skins allowing the naturally present microbes to begin working on the sugars. Freshly picked grapes have already begun this process.

This wine which Jesus produced in Cana was pure grape juice. Jesus is God and God can not contradict Himself and his teachings.

(to be continued)

To keep grape juice free of the microbes that cause fermentation, it must be pasteurized. Something not possible until the 1800’s. Jesus, as God, could of course have caused this to happen, but there is no evidence that he did, as fermented wine was customary.

ABUSE is forbidden, not moderate drinking. God does not contradict himself, or this verse in deuteronomy would not exist:

“And before the Lord your God, in the place which he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstlings of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always. And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to bring the tithe . . . then you shall turn it into money, and bind up the money in your hand, and go to the place which the Lord your God chooses, and spend the money for whatever you desire, oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves, and you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household” (Deut. 14:23-26).

Notice it includes ‘strong drink’ as well as ‘wine’. I chose this passage, out of many, becuase it included strong drink, which makes the debate about whether all wine was fermented irrelevant. Strong drink cannot be sinful if God recomends it for celebration, can it?

Mary

 

[goitalone]

Truely this is the battle of Amrageddon

Vegetarians are “weak in faith” (Rom. 14:1)
Paul wrote to the Romans that “the weak man eats only vegetables” (14:2). At that time, Jews were banned from Rome, and a kosher butcher would have been arrested. Unable to obtain kosher meat, many Jews abstained from meat altogether, for fear of eating meat that had been offered to a pagan god. Paul maintained that eating meat, even if offered to idols, was not a spiritual concern, because the pagan gods didn’t exist. Only the “weak in faith” failed to appreciate that sacrifices to fictitious gods were meaningless. Paul said that meat-eaters should not condemn those who abstain, and vice versa (14:3). It appears that Paul wrote this to the Romans because Paul was concerned about differences on diet dividing the church. Paul was not justifying meat-eating per se.

 

[Dabnagit]

I do not agree this only refers to washing ones hands, but I can see the possibility.

Well, this cannot be made much clearer a question was asked, and a answer was given all from Jesus. I know the problem isn’t within Jesus’ word.

However, Christians are not bound by Jewish dietary law. St. Paul makes that perfectly clear:

Colossians 2:16:

Let no one, then, pass judgment on you in matters of food and drink or with regard to a festival or new moon or sabbath.

Colossians, I think we could agree is not written to the Jews that were just converted. So the people that Paul is refering to as passing judgement would also not be Jews. So, if its not Jews, who is it he’s writting to. Gentiles that come from a pagan background. So, if in that context colossians is read, then we have Paul telling newly converted pagans that they should not let people (other pagans) judge them in matters of food or sabbaths. If you read collossians the way you suggest then we have gentiles being told by Jewish people what to eat or not and we know that would never happen because the Jews would never associate with gentiles. I think your coming from the wrong percpective because the pagans never followed clean or unclean foods.
Jeff

 

[goitalone]

Listen to this…

Is the reference to Sabbath days in Colossians 2:16 referring to the Seventh day Sabbath of the Lord or the various Ceremonial Sabbaths? Should it be translated as Sabbaths, clearly indicating that ceremonial Sabbaths are being referred to, or is it Singular which would cast some doubt as to if Paul was referring to the fourth commandment?

Since Paul is unmistakably referencing the ordinances (ceremonial law) in Colossians 2:14 and everything else he refers to in Colossians 2:16-17 are also part of the sanctuary system which was observed when the moral law was broken. The chances that Paul would be referring to the fourth commandment is probably less than 0.01%. It just would not fit the context of the passage in the slightest. All these issues and questions will now be clearly answered.

Those guilty of antinomianism or anti-sabbatarians often like to quote Bible translations that are not true to the original Greek text to support their argument while falling from truth. It does not necessarily mean these are bad translations as they are sometimes just trying to clarify a verse. The NASB is quite often used by these people, but note how it moves seriously away from the original meaning of the verse. Compare the KJV with the NASB and see which matches the original Greek text using the table below. The Greek New Testament which matches the KJV with Strongs is also given. The KJV gives much more clarity to what is being spoken about such as there is a big difference between “contrary to us” and “hostile to us”. Handwriting and ordinances are very important keywords also. How are people supposed to interpret “having cancelled out the certificate of debt”? What debt? Handwriting on the other hand (pardon the pun) has to be Moses who wrote down the ordinances which can now be clearly seen as the ceremonial law.

 

[MarysRoses]

I am not going to waste space debating the different words for wine. I have already discussed the miss perception that new wine and must are not fermented. The process begins on the vine and pasteurization and refrigeration were not available. Passover was in the spring, the grape harvest was in the fall. Even the best attempts to explain how fresh juice could have been available eventually have to assume some process to preserve the juice that we are not now aware of. Becuase Josephus claims mossada had ‘fresh’ grapes throughout their seige, then there must have been some way unknown to modern science to preserve them. The problems with that are that Josephus is not a model of accurate reporting, he often made exagerated claims, and what does ‘fresh’ mean to a society where refrigeration is unknown? Grapes were often kept and thier juices would concentrate (on their way to becoming raisins.) This would slow, but not eliminate fermentation. These grapes were then often squeezed directly into cups for consumption. The resulting product while not traditional wine, would not be free of alcohol and would not meet modern expectations of ‘pure’ juice, either.

Wine used by Jesus in the Holy Supper.

We can assure with full knowledge that wine used in this event was not fermented. This statement is certain because of the following:

In Passover’s ceremony there could not be any ferment at home as it was symbol of sin. If bread without yeast did not have ferment as its name easily suggests, it is easy to assume that wine could not be fermented.

Passover wines are fermented. Fermentation was a natural process. Kosher wines are not contaminated by additives have no added yeast, but they are the naturally fermented product of the vine.

abarbanel.com/history.shtml

The whole reading of these verses bring us to this conclusion: Gen. 19:3;

This verse says Lot baked his visitors bread with no yeast. Leavened bread took time, his visitors were unexpected. So maybe this is becuase of haste?

Exo. 13:6-7;

This is in reference to bread. Do not make bread with yeast.

It mentions nothing about wine. Passover wines are not made with added yeast but allow the naturally occuring microbes (which are a type of yeast, but people of biblical times would not have known that) to work.

Lev. 23:5-8;

There is only one reference to a drink offering, and it says wine. Nothing about it being a special wine. The prohibition on yeast is in reference to bread.

Luc. 22:1.

References the feast of Unleavened Bread, Passover.
Again, the prohibition against yeast was in reference to bread.

Passover wines were fermented.

(continued next post)

 

[goitalone]

Well, hmm… Sabbath or Ceremonial Law?

Lets see…

Romans 14:5

As with Colossians 2:16, some people also believe that Romans 14:5 refers to God’s Seventh day Sabbath. Could this be true or is it the same misunderstanding as Colossians 2:16?

Having now adequately covered Colossians 2:16 and Galatians 4:9-10 which are the two main passages on this most misunderstood topic of the ceremonial law and the Sabbath, let’s now conclude with this final scripture of Romans 14:5 that so many also misunderstand as seems to always be the case when it comes to God’s law of love and the temporary ceremonial law which pointed the way to Christ. I have also chosen five well respected Bible Commentaries to cover Romans 14:5, as they give very thorough explanations on this verse. The scripture concerned, is mainly Romans 14:5, but so the context of the passage can be seen, I have given the surrounding verses also. Romans 14:1-6, “Him that is weak in the faith receive you, but not to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God has received him. 4 Who are you that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yes, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he does not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.”
It becomes clear from Romans 14 and 15 chapters, that many misunderstandings existed between Jewish and Gentile Christians in relation to certain customs which were sacredly observed by one but disregarded by the other. The main subject of dispute was concerning meats and days. The converted Jew retaining respect for the law of Moses abstained from certain meats and observed ceremonial days while the converted Gentile understood that Christianity put him under no such obligation or regard to ceremonial points. It also appears that mutual and heartless judgments existed among them and that brotherly love and reciprocal tolerance did not always prevail. Paul exhorts that in such things no longer essential to Christianity, that even though both parties had a different way of thinking they might and probably do still have an honest and serious regard for God. Paul further explains they should not therefore let different sentiments hinder Christian fellowship and love, but they should mutually refrain and withhold and make allowance for each other and especially not carry their Gospel liberty so far as to prejudice a weak brother or a Jewish Christian.
When the passage is about a law of bondage as referred to in Galatians 4 or foods and days as in Colossians 2:16 and Romans 14:5, especially when associated with the sanctuary service, then we must realize that the Ten Commandments are not being referred to. When the Ten Commandments are being referenced, you can always tell as the context of the passage will always be centred around love, as that is what the Ten Commandments are. The Bible tells us in 1 John 4:8 “He that loves not, knows not God; for God Is Love.“ As God is eternal, then Love also must be eternal. 1 John 4:16 says, “And we have known and believed the love that God has to us. God is love; and he that dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him.“ Love is inseparable from God and the true Christian, as God is Love and Love is God. We were created in Love and for Love and no other reason. This is why the Ten Commandments are eternal and unchanging, as God changes not, and love changes not, and the guidelines on loving God and man also changes not. Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 that He did not come to destroy the law and that till heaven and earth pass, not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law. He also warned against not teaching the law and said great is he that does teach and uphold the law. Jesus then raises the bar even higher and tells us that if we think the crime we have done the crime as verse 27 goes on to say. Jesus is in no way implying the Ten Commandments are going to be abolished or change, but to the contrary Jesus shows they will become even stricter. To imply that Colossians 2:16, Galatians 4:10 or Romans 14:5 refer to the Ten Commandments takes them out of context and they then also fail to line up with other scripture throughout the Bible as well as contradicting other scriptures. The remainder of this topic on Romans 14:5 is best left to some of the world’s past, but best theologians.

(continued)