Question for goitalone or any other Adventist

[MarysRoses]

Therefore wine prepared by Jesus in Cana and wine used in the Holy Supper, they both were not fermented as Jesus would never accept, under no circumstances, to use something that is clearly condemned in the Bible

Hope that helps!

charlie

It is still unclear to me why you think the Bible forbids wine.

Consider the following:

I am unconvinced the greek word oinos means anything but wine. I do have some grounds for saying that from personal experience, as I took three years of NT greek in college. It is helpful to remember that a dictionary or lexicon can often reflect the biases of the author, and that any word study should use varied sources and many primary sources of the word in context in writings of the same time as the usuage under study in order to arrive at valid conclusions.

Passover was six months AFTER the harvest. The technology did not exist to pasteurize and preserve ‘pure juice’.

I have heard all kinds of suppositions. That palestine’s climate did not allow grapes to ferment. That caves in palestine were the perfect temperature to prevent fermentation. That juice was boiled and stored at the bottoms of lakes. That there was some mysterious method not recorded

All of the above are easily disproven with just a little research.

Jews have used fermented wines for passover as far back in history as we have written records of the observance.

So… When did Christians begin to used non alcoholic, pasteurized juice for communion?

Interestingly, the question of whether to use wine or juice did not come about in protestant circles until a pasteurized product was available. This happened in the 1800’s.

Before then, it wasn’t a possibility, and so it wasn’t an issue.

Victorian times brought temperance to the attention and interest of many protestant groups. A methodist lay minister, who was a steward of communion, became concerned about using wine in communion. A dentist by profession, he had heard of the discovery of Louis Pasteur that kept milk from spoiling and wondered if it would work with grapes. So he picked concord grapes from his farm and cooked up the first batch of Welch’s grape juice. He hot processed (removes any natural alcohol already present as well as killing the yeast) and antiseptically packaged the result. As communion steward, he was responsible for providing the elements for communion, and he began using the pasteurized juice at his church. His son, Charles, picked up on the process and began marketing the product to churches as ‘biblical wine’.

As the temperance movement spead, Charles Welch quit dentistry and began to market the pasteurized juice nationwide to protestant churches as an alternative to wine.

In 1864 the Methodist Episcopal Church recomended the pasteurized juice over wine. In 1916, they forbid the use of wine altogether.

In 1881 the Church of the Bretheren recomended the pasteurized juice, in 1889 they made it mandatory, excluding wine.

I havn’t looked up other groups, but the pattern is clear. Using unfermented juice is a novelty, only about 150 years old, becuase before that, the possibility did not exist.

MarysRoses

 

[goitalone]

(continued)

This way you are hearing from highly respected theologians rather then myself since I have only studied this topic for about four thousand hours for my current level of understanding and there is still more to learn.
John Wesley’s Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible, Romans 14:5 - One day above another - As new moons, and other Jewish festivals. Let every man be fully persuaded - That a thing is lawful, before he does it.
Notice how the Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge, which primarily references other verses that are referring to the same topic, has referenced the passages that Paul discussed with the Romans, Galatians and Colossians regarding the ceremonial law also. This as we have now seen is because all these verses are referring to the ceremonial law.
Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge. Romans 14:5 - esteemeth: Galatians 4:9, Galatians 4:10; Colossians 2:16, Colossians 2:17
Adam Clarke’s Commentary on the Bible, Romans 14:5 - One man esteemeth one day above another - Perhaps the word day, is here taken for time, festival, and such like, in which sense it is frequently used. Reference is made here to the Jewish institutions, and especially their festivals; such as the Passover, Pentecost, feast of tabernacles, new moons, jubilee, etc. The converted Jew still thought these of moral obligation; the Gentile Christian not having been bred up in this way had no such prejudices. And as those who were the instruments of bringing him to the knowledge of God gave him no such injunctions, consequently he paid to these no religious regard.
Another - The converted Gentile esteemeth every day - considers that all time is the Lord’s, and that each day should be devoted to the glory of God; and that those festivals are not binding on him. We add here alike, and make the text say what I am sure was never intended, viz. that there is no distinction of days, not even of the Sabbath: and that every Christian is at liberty to consider even this day to be holy or not holy, as he happens to be persuaded in his own mind. That the Sabbath is of lasting obligation may be reasonably concluded from its institution (see the note on Gen 2:3) and from its typical reference. All allow that the Sabbath is a type of that rest in glory which remains for the people of God. Now, all types are intended to continue in full force till the antitype, or thing signified, take place; consequently, the Sabbath will continue in force till the consummation of all things. The word alike should not be added; nor is it acknowledged by any MS. or ancient version.
Let every man be fully persuaded - With respect to the propriety or non-propriety of keeping the above festivals, let every man act from the plenary conviction of his own mind; there is a sufficient latitude allowed.
Albert Barnes’ Notes on the Bible, Romans 14:5 - One man esteemeth - Greek “judgeth” krinei. The word is here properly translated “esteemeth;” compare Act 13:46; Act 16:15. The word originally has the idea of “separating,” and then “discerning,” in the act of judging. The expression means that one would set a higher value on one day than on another, or would regard it as more sacred than others. This was the case with the “Jews” uniformly, who regarded the days of their festivals, and fasts, and Sabbaths (i.e. ceremonial Sabbaths) as especially sacred, and who would retain, to no inconsiderable degree, their former views, even after they became converted to Christianity.
Another “esteemeth - That is, the “Gentile” Christian. Not having been brought up amidst the Jewish customs, and not having imbibed their opinions and prejudices, they would not regard these days as having any special sacredness. The appointment of those days had a special reference “to the Jews.” They were designed to keep them as a separate people, and to prepare the nation for the “reality,” of which their rites were but the shadow. When the Messiah came, the Passover, the feast of tabernacles, and the other special festivals of the Jews, of course vanished, and it is perfectly clear that the apostles never intended to inculcate their observance on the Gentile converts. See this subject discussed in the second chapter of the Epistle to the Galatians.
Every day alike - The word “alike” is not in the original, and it may convey an idea which the apostle did not design. The passage means that he regards “every day” as consecrated to the Lord; Romans 14:6. The question has been agitated whether the apostle intends in this to include the Christian Sabbath. Does he mean to say that it is a matter of “indifference” whether this day be observed, or whether it be devoted to ordinary business or amusements? This is a very important question in regard to the Lord’s day. That the apostle did not mean to say that it was a matter of indifference whether it should be kept as holy, or devoted to business or amusement, is plain from the following considerations.

(continued)

 

[goitalone]

(continued)

(1) the discussion had reference only to the special customs of the “Jews,” to the rites and practices which “they” would attempt to impose on the Gentiles, and not to any questions which might arise among Christians as “Christians.” The inquiry pertained to “meats,” and festival observances among the Jews, and to their scruples about partaking of the food offered to idols, etc.; and there is no more propriety in supposing that the subject of the Lord’s day is introduced here than that he advances principles respecting “baptism” and “the Lord’s supper."
(2) the “Lord’s day” was doubtless observed by “all” Christians, whether converted from Jews or Gentiles; see 1Corinthians 16:2; Acts 20:7; Revelation 1:10; compare the notes at John 20:26. The propriety of observing “that day” does not appear to have been a matter of controversy. The only inquiry was, whether it was proper to add to that the observance of the Jewish Sabbaths, and days of festivals and fasts.
(3) it is expressly said that those who did not regard the day regarded it as not to God, or to honor God; Romans 14:6. They did it as a matter of respect to him and his institutions, to promote his glory, and to advance his kingdom. Was this ever done by those who disregard the Christian Sabbath? Is their design ever to promote his honor, and to advance in the knowledge of him, by “neglecting” his holy day? Who knows not that the Christian Sabbath has never been neglected or profaned by any design to glorify the Lord Jesus, or to promote his kingdom? It is for purposes of business, gain, war, amusement, dissipation, visiting, crime. Let the heart be filled with a sincere desire to “honor the Lord Jesus,” and the Christian Sabbath will be reverenced, and devoted to the purposes of piety. And if any man is disposed to plead “this passage” as an excuse for violating the Sabbath, and devoting it to pleasure or gain, let him quote it “just as it is,” that is, let “him neglect the Sabbath from a conscientious desire to honor Jesus Christ.” Unless this is his motive, the passage cannot avail him. But this motive never yet influenced a Sabbath-breaker.
Let every man… - That is, subjects of this kind are not to be pressed as matters of conscience. Every man is to examine them for himself, and act accordingly. This direction pertains to the subject under discussion, and not to any other. It does not refer to subjects that were “morally” wrong, but to ceremonial observances. If the “Jew” esteemed it wrong to eat meat, he was to abstain from it; if the Gentile esteemed it right, he was to act accordingly. The word “be fully persuaded” denotes the highest conviction, not a matter of opinion or prejudice, but a matter on which the mind is made up by examination; see Romans 4:21; 2 Timothy 4:5. This is the general principle on which Christians are called to act in relation to festival days and fasts in the church. If some Christians deem them to be for edification, and suppose that their piety will be promoted by observing the days which commemorate the birth, and death, and temptations of the Lord Jesus, they are not to be reproached or opposed in their celebration. Nor are they to attempt to impose them on others as a matter of conscience, or to reproach others because they do not observe them.
The People’s New Testament (1891) by B. W. Johnson, Romans 14:5-9 - One man esteemeth one day above another. A second difference of opinion is now cited. Some, Jewish converts or Gentiles who did not understand that the old covenant was ended, believed that the Jewish Sabbaths and new moons should be kept sacred. Compare Colossians 2:16, and Galatians 4:10.

Of course, we are all free to eat, drink and worship what we will…it’s a free world…the Church is not to a police organization, but if we want to go by what God really says, we have to go by what our He and His Bible truely teaches.

I want to do what the God’s Bible really teaches.

The Bible says many will not accept the love of the truth and I personally think you have to ask yerself…am I accepting the truths of the Bible, or do I have some things hidden away inside of me?

Perhaps things I feel I cannot or do not want to give up to accept the truth?

I know I have had to personally.

May His Kingdom come soon. May His will be done here on earth,. just as it is in heaven.

There will be no meat eating or alcohol in Heaven friends…and we will worship on His holy Sabbath day there as well.

charlie

 

[MarysRoses]

Listen to this…

Is the reference to Sabbath days in Colossians 2:16 referring to the Seventh day Sabbath of the Lord or the various Ceremonial Sabbaths? Should it be translated as Sabbaths, clearly indicating that ceremonial Sabbaths are being referred to, or is it Singular which would cast some doubt as to if Paul was referring to the fourth commandment?

Since Paul is unmistakably referencing the ordinances (ceremonial law) in Colossians 2:14 and everything else he refers to in Colossians 2:16-17 are also part of the sanctuary system which was observed when the moral law was broken. The chances that Paul would be referring to the fourth commandment is probably less than 0.01%. It just would not fit the context of the passage in the slightest. All these issues and questions will now be clearly answered.

Those guilty of antinomianism or anti-sabbatarians often like to quote Bible translations that are not true to the original Greek text to support their argument while falling from truth. It does not necessarily mean these are bad translations as they are sometimes just trying to clarify a verse. The NASB is quite often used by these people, but note how it moves seriously away from the original meaning of the verse. Compare the KJV with the NASB and see which matches the original Greek text using the table below. The Greek New Testament which matches the KJV with Strongs is also given. The KJV gives much more clarity to what is being spoken about such as there is a big difference between “contrary to us” and “hostile to us”. Handwriting and ordinances are very important keywords also. How are people supposed to interpret “having cancelled out the certificate of debt”? What debt? Handwriting on the other hand (pardon the pun) has to be Moses who wrote down the ordinances which can now be clearly seen as the ceremonial law.

You will be hard pressed to find any concept of ‘ceremonial law’ in the Bible. Jews did not recognize any difference amoun all of the law. Neither did early Christians, this is an invention to try to draw distinction between laws some want to keep, so they can exclude the ones not to their liking. St. Paul says to observe part of the law is to take on obligation to it all.

MarysRoses

 

[goitalone]

Mary, you drink all the fermented wine, beers and liquor you want and eat at all the pork, and unclean things you like too ok?

Cheers!

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Truely this is the battle of Amrageddon

Vegetarians are “weak in faith” (Rom. 14:1)
Paul wrote to the Romans that “the weak man eats only vegetables” (14:2). At that time, Jews were banned from Rome, and a kosher butcher would have been arrested. Unable to obtain kosher meat, many Jews abstained from meat altogether, for fear of eating meat that had been offered to a pagan god. Paul maintained that eating meat, even if offered to idols, was not a spiritual concern, because the pagan gods didn’t exist. Only the “weak in faith” failed to appreciate that sacrifices to fictitious gods were meaningless. Paul said that meat-eaters should not condemn those who abstain, and vice versa (14:3). It appears that Paul wrote this to the Romans because Paul was concerned about differences on diet dividing the church. Paul was not justifying meat-eating per se.

Where did you get this information ??? What are your sources??

I answered you via PM because you sent me your bizarre reasoning via the same method.

Again: no word or concept for ‘grape juice’ in the WORLD prior to the 20th century.

You take some things literally (thanks Dagnabit for biting on that one) and others in a “symbolic” way such as the body and blood of Christ in Communion.

You can’t have it both ways. Picking and choosing what to follow from the OT and ignoring all history and early writings of the Church. Unless of course, you believe like your predecessors the Millerites that the Bible is some secret code for predicting the end of the world. Then again, you do believe that: you’re Seventh Day Adventists.

 

[MarysRoses]

Truely this is the battle of Amrageddon

Vegetarians are “weak in faith” (Rom. 14:1)
Paul wrote to the Romans that “the weak man eats only vegetables” (14:2). At that time, Jews were banned from Rome, and a kosher butcher would have been arrested. Unable to obtain kosher meat, many Jews abstained from meat altogether, for fear of eating meat that had been offered to a pagan god. Paul maintained that eating meat, even if offered to idols, was not a spiritual concern, because the pagan gods didn’t exist. Only the “weak in faith” failed to appreciate that sacrifices to fictitious gods were meaningless. Paul said that meat-eaters should not condemn those who abstain, and vice versa (14:3). It appears that Paul wrote this to the Romans because Paul was concerned about differences on diet dividing the church. Paul was not justifying meat-eating per se.

An interesting rationalization, but with a consequence you overlooked. If St. Paul was adjusting laws or rules to accomodate the local situation, then he was using authority you claim the Church does not have. Catholics have no problem with our priests and bishops making allowances for difficult circumstances and local customs.

MarysRoses

 

[goitalone]

Again: no word or concept for ‘grape juice’ in the WORLD prior to the 20th century.

You asked me why the word oinos was used and I answered…but now I see it was a waste of my time even trying to help.

 

[JonathanKinsman]

In the Septuagint (A Greek version of the Hebrew Scriptures that dates from the 3rd century B.C.), the hebrew word for grape juice, TIROSH, is translated at least 33 times by the greek word OINOS which means wine, and the adjective “new” is not present. Thus OINOS can clearly represent a non fermented product in the New Testament.

It can not be accepted that He prepared fermented wine, which is corrupted.

Sorry, Goitalone, I could not let this boner of yours go by without publicly addressing it.

1. The Septuagint was the earliest full manuscript we have of the Jewish Tanakh. The rabbis at the village of Jamnia in 90 AD used it to retranslate back into Hebrew what the early Church knew and used as the OT. Those rabbis changed some words and phrases to avoid the OT prophecies concerning Jesus as the Messiah for Jews and Gentiles. Protestants use the Jamnian version of the Septuagint for their Textus Receptus. Again: this is AFTER the NT documents were written (Gospels, Acts and Letters). If you want to accept that post-Jesus, post-Apostle, post-witness version of the Septuagint as YOUR OT, go for it!
2. There is NO HEBREW or ARAMAIC word for ‘grape juice.’
   The word you are trying to transcribe is for WINE. FERMENTED JUICE OF WINE BEARING GRAPES (vitis vinifera). To pretend otherwise is juvenile and self-deluding.
3. Answer Mary Rose publicly: why is wine ‘corrupted’ in your perverse view of exegesis and etymology?

 

[JonathanKinsman]

You asked me why the word oinos was used and I answered…but now I see it was a waste of my time even trying to help.

Oinos

was used because it means FERMENTED GRAPE JUICE, otherwise known as, WINE !!!

I asked you why you deny it is wine and pretend it is grape juice when the Greek is clear.

You avoid it with all sorts of histrionics about words and phrase which have no bearing on the question.

 

[MarysRoses]

(continued)

This way you are hearing from highly respected theologians rather then myself since I have only studied this topic for about four thousand hours for my current level of understanding and there is still more to learn.

So you are admitting you havn’t fully examined the stuff you are lifting and pasting here. (be careful you are not violating copyright laws!).

I’m not about to write a paper on each quote here, but I find something interesting:

Here’s the webpage on which you can find all these:
godrules.net/commentary-index.html

And, surprise, its an Adventist site.

Of course I can’t know for sure you used this exact site, but whether this one or a similar one, until you start to research on your own, you will always arrive at the same conclusions. These commentaries are handpicked to support the views of the web page’s owner. Thats to be expected. But real research involves seeing what other people have to say on the same topic.

I have posted quite a lot of material, and it is all my own work, not stuff lifted from a webpage.

You still have not begun to address my questions and concerns, you are only cutting and pasting from a webpage that supports your views.

You would probably be shocked to find out some of the theologians you quoted actually disagree with you when you study their entire work.

Please stay and discuss, but tell me why YOU think i’m wrong, or what reason you have to disagree.

I too, could find some great theologians to support my views… but thats not the intention of this forum.

MarysRoses

 

[goitalone]

Wouldn’t surprise me you are all drunk right now, sitting around yer pc’s trying yer best to twist and deny the truth so you can feel justified about eating yer next cancerous diseased filled, possible trichinosis infected pork chop’s or drinking yer next glass of wine filled with the Spirit of the devil.

What a waste of time.

So long Catholics!

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Adventists:

This is from a Protestant writer in the OUP Companion to the Bible (He’s not one of your guys or one of ours). It is found under the heading of ‘WIne’ on page 799, 1993 edition:

"Wine was a staple of life (Sir 39:26), as the formula “grain, wine, and oil” shows (Deut 11:14; Joel 1:10). It was a source of pleasure for both humans (Eccles 10:19; Sir 31:27-28; 32:5-6;40:20) and the gods (Judg 9:13) and was thus a regular component of ritual (Exod 29:40; Lev 23:13). Wine was a divine gift (Deut 7:13; Psalms 104:15; Hos 2:8) and would be provided abundantly in the end time (Jer 31:12; Joel 3:18; Amos 9:13-14)…

The generally positive attitude of biblical writers toward moderate consumption of wine posed a problem for modern advocates of total abstinence (‘temperance’) as both a personal and a social ideal. How could those who accepted the Bible as supreme authority reject its teaching that wine was good, a teaching exemplified by the practice of Jesus (Luke 7:24; Mark 14:23; John 2:1-11) and others?"

From Michael D. Coogan’s essay in the OUP Companion to the Bible (OUP, London, 1993)

That highlighted sentence says it all for you Johnny-come-latelies to biblical history and teaching: the Millerites and the Mormons and all those early 1800 sects were a reaction against popular culture (people drank while working and drunkeness was endemic) and sought refuge in private revelation about who gets to Heaven, who doesn’t, and when the bus leaves for the Pearly Gates. Hence, we have Seventh Day Adventists and Seventh Day Baptists and Messianic Jews and a slurry of David Korash wannabes who have private knowledge as to what wine ‘means’ and communion ‘means’ and Revelation ‘means.’

That’s the irony of it: these heresies were rampant in the early centuries prior to the organization and orthodox teaching of the Church.

Goitalone: you’re part of the same old same old.

 

[MarysRoses]

Mary, you drink all the fermented wine, beers and liquor you want and eat at all the pork, and unclean things you like too ok?

Cheers!

I feel very sad for you that you are stuck in the same legalistic prison that I used to be locked in as well.

One sad sad story I remember having read to me from Ellen White’s books, I was young, was a story about people climbing a mountain. It was a very dreary, winding trail with an abyss at the side. People would stumble fall off the trail and be swallowed up, with no possibility of gaining acess to the trail again. The sabbath school teacher then told us that the trail represented the Adventist path, and the abyss, being eternally lost. She told us we should take care, becuase if we fell into the errors of eating meat, reading fiction, or going to the movies, those sins would cause us to stumble and fall off the path. Those people that fell would be lost forever. She also told us, quoting from Ellen White book ‘Early Writings’, that maybe only one in twenty Adventists would be saved, that unless we guarded and perfected our characters, we would fall.

The impression this story left on us, of a harsh, cruel God who sets up impossibly difficult challenges stayed with me for a long time.

Jesus did stress a narrow way, but he also taught that God is Love, and that those who want to find him, will.

Adventists are missing out on all the good gifts we have. Our pastor told a story in a homily last week. A little boy wanted to go to the circus, and got permission from his mom. So he went downtown, and as he was walking, he saw a circus wagon and sat down. He then saw the clowns, and elephant, and some acrobats marching down the street. He got up and ran home and excitedly started telling his mom about his trip to the circus. Imagine his reaction when his mom told him that he never made it to the circus at all! Just the parade.

Adventism as a belief system is like that. Adventists love Jesus, they want to obey God, but somehow they got stuck along the way and are missing out on the fullness of Christianity, concerned with what people eat and drink or what day they worship on. They worry about having correct views, rather than living the Gospel. Not that truth isn’t important, but do we get points for ‘being right’ or for living out what we know is right?

God Bless and I will be praying for you, and asking all the angels and saints including our Blessed Mother, to pray for you as well! Family is so wonderful, isn’t it.

MarysRoses

As far as eating and drinking, CHEERS! Its New Year’s eve and we are having tamales and champagne.

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Looks like goitalone as gotupandleft.

 

[Maria1212]

Wouldn’t surprise me you are all drunk right now, sitting around yer pc’s trying yer best to twist and deny the truth so you can feel justified about eating yer next cancerous diseased filled, possible trichinosis infected pork chop’s or drinking yer next glass of wine filled with the Spirit of the devil.

What a waste of time.

So long Catholics!

Dear Goitalone,

I am sorry you are filled with such anger and hatred toward Catholics. I am also sorry you appeared to have misunderstood the other posts. I will keep you in my prayers and hope others will join me.

Sincerely,
Maria1212

 

[RNRobert]

I don’t know if this has been pointed out yet…

1 Timothy 6:23-

“Stop drinking only water, but have a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.”

 

[adventistnomore]

Wouldn’t surprise me you are all drunk right now, sitting around yer pc’s trying yer best to twist and deny the truth so you can feel justified about eating yer next cancerous diseased filled, possible trichinosis infected pork chop’s or drinking yer next glass of wine filled with the Spirit of the devil.

What a waste of time.

So long Catholics!

goitalone,

Please realize that you could be kicked off the forums for making such irresonsible statements. I don’t want that to happen, because I believe that God has placed you here for a reason (as you probably also do).

I was a dedicated, conservative Adventist who dreamed of becoming a pastor someday. My dreams were shattered when I realized that so much of what I believed as an Adventist was wrong. After three years of studying and soul-searching (while attending an Adventist university), God led me to the Catholic Church. I am not here to “twist and deny the truth”; I am here to share the truth I discovered with others.

Also, I should add, I do not drink, I do not smoke, and I’m a vegan. I can demonstrate from the New Testament that the old Levitical restriction against pork is no longer binding, without eating a bite of it myself (after all, it is unhealthy). Accordingly, I hope you cease from making personal attacks on the Catholics (calling them drunks), especially considering the fact that they were more than encouraging when you discussed your addictions on another thread.

Finally, I invite you to visit my website sometime:

diesdomini.com

And remember, even if you have the truth, there is a right and wrong way to share it. Reflect the meekness of Christ always.