Question for LC-MS Members!

[jinc1019]

Hi, I have a question for those of you on Catholic Answers who are a part of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, who have been members in the past, or who know a lot about it…

How much conformity does the LCMS require for lay members? In other words, if an LCMS member has a different view of predestination or perhaps the view that the office of the Pope is the Anti-Christ, can a member continue being in good standing in the LC-MS and receive communion? Or, must everyone accept every word of the confessions?

In short, just HOW much of the Lutheran confessions are members in good standing required to agree with? Is there absolutely NO ROOM for dissent? I realize that in some situations, there couldn’t be…but what about issues that are clearly up for debate, like the office of the Pope being the Anti-Christ? Lutherans accept Luther and his early followers and colleagues were not perfect, so how can they treat their writings as such?

Thanks in advance!

 

[benjohnson]

Happy Easter! He has risen!

In the LCMS experience that I’ve had - there is room for personal disagreement, but no room for public disagreement on serious matters. In very strong terms, we are to lead each other to the narrow path despite our own sins and problems accepting God’s Law and Gospel. The LCMS is filled with many people are struggling with very severe and persistent sins - but part of the repentance we need is that we don’t encourage others into sin.

“It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble.”

The LCMS can appear to be rather strict - and indeed this is often the case. But what can be missed is that the Gospel is preached with great joy. Indeed the Law condemns us, but the Gospel is stronger.

…

As for the office of the Pope being an Anti-Christ: Please be aware that our declaration on this is conditional on the Pope having the marks of the Anti-Christ in the Bible AND is also conditional on the Pope preaching something other than God’s Salvation through the cross.

For me, Popes have proved time and time again that they neither have the marks, and they preach the Gospel with great strength. Defiantly not an Anti-Christ.

That’s not to say were not watching very very closely.

 

[jinc1019]

Happy Easter! He has risen!

In the LCMS experience that I’ve had - there is room for personal disagreement, but no room for public disagreement on serious matters. In very strong terms, we are to lead each other to the narrow path despite our own sins and problems accepting God’s Law and Gospel. The LCMS is filled with many people are struggling with very severe and persistent sins - but part of the repentance we need is that we don’t encourage others into sin.

“It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble.”

The LCMS can appear to be rather strict - and indeed this is often the case. But what can be missed is that the Gospel is preached with great joy. Indeed the Law condemns us, but the Gospel is stronger.

…

As for the office of the Pope being an Anti-Christ: Please be aware that our declaration on this is conditional on the Pope having the marks of the Anti-Christ in the Bible AND is also conditional on the Pope preaching something other than God’s Salvation through the cross.

For me, Popes have proved time and time again that they neither have the marks, and they preach the Gospel with great strength. Defiantly not an Anti-Christ.

That’s not to say were not watching very very closely.

Hi Ben…Thank you so much for your points, both of them are very instructive.

However, I was wondering if you could clarify on both counts. On the first, I was referring to Luther’s (or other followers of his) interpretations in the Book of Concord only. In other words, I understand the Trinity is non-negotiable…But what about Luther’s interpretation of a particular passage of scripture? Is that also non-negotiable? The view of the Pope as the Anti-Christ? Six days of creation instead of allegory? Things like that. I understand Lutherans are called to believe the Bible, my interest was more in the interpretations of the Book of Concord. Perhaps your comments apply to both, but I just wanted to be sure.

Second, excellent information about the office of the Pope…Do you have some kind of an official church position on that? I would like to read more about it being conditional on the criteria you listed. In the Frequently Asked Questions section of LCMS.org, it doesn’t seem conditional at all, but that isn’t an official church position. Thanks in advance!

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Hi Ben…Thank you so much for your points, both of them are very instructive.

However, I was wondering if you could clarify on both counts. On the first, I was referring to Luther’s (or other followers of his) interpretations in the Book of Concord only. In other words, I understand the Trinity is non-negotiable…But what about Luther’s interpretation of a particular passage of scripture? Is that also non-negotiable? The view of the Pope as the Anti-Christ? Six days of creation instead of allegory? Things like that. I understand Lutherans are called to believe the Bible, my interest was more in the interpretations of the Book of Concord. Perhaps your comments apply to both, but I just wanted to be sure.

Second, excellent information about the office of the Pope…Do you have some kind of an official church position on that? I would like to read more about it being conditional on the criteria you listed. In the Frequently Asked Questions section of LCMS.org, it doesn’t seem conditional at all, but that isn’t an official church position. Thanks in advance!

For both LCMS and WELS, strictly speaking the only documents that a lay member has to subscribe to are the Catechism and the Augsburg Confession.

 

[JonNC]

For both LCMS and WELS, strictly speaking the only documents that a lay member has to subscribe to are the Catechism and the Augsburg Confession.

Both the Small and Large Catechisms, and of course the Creeds, and pretty much the Apology of the Augsburg Confession.

Where the layman has room for divergent views is in areas of adiaphora, things indifferent. Such as most of the marian doctrines (except the virgin birth and Holy Theotokos). Another might be whether or not one considers Absolutiona sacrament, or an extension of Baptism.

Jon

 

[mark_a]

For both LCMS and WELS, strictly speaking the only documents that a lay member has to subscribe to are the Catechism and the Augsburg Confession.

Both the Small and Large Catechisms, and of course the Creeds, and pretty much the Apology of the Augsburg Confession.

(except the virgin birth and Holy Theotokos).

These aren’t considered dogmas, are they?

 

[jinc1019]

Both the Small and Large Catechisms, and of course the Creeds, and pretty much the Apology of the Augsburg Confession.

Where the layman has room for divergent views is in areas of adiaphora, things indifferent. Such as most of the marian doctrines (except the virgin birth and Holy Theotokos). Another might be whether or not one considers Absolutiona sacrament, or an extension of Baptism.

Jon

Thanks for the answer Jon…I appreciate it. Any official sources on this? I haven’t found anything on the LCMS website. I trust your answer, I am just curious to read the thought process behind it!

 

[jinc1019]

For both LCMS and WELS, strictly speaking the only documents that a lay member has to subscribe to are the Catechism and the Augsburg Confession.

Thanks for this as well!

 

[just_came_back]

Happy Easter! He has risen!

In the LCMS experience that I’ve had - there is room for personal disagreement, but no room for public disagreement on serious matters. In very strong terms, we are to lead each other to the narrow path despite our own sins and problems accepting God’s Law and Gospel. The LCMS is filled with many people are struggling with very severe and persistent sins - but part of the repentance we need is that we don’t encourage others into sin.

“It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble.”

The LCMS can appear to be rather strict - and indeed this is often the case. But what can be missed is that the Gospel is preached with great joy. Indeed the Law condemns us, but the Gospel is stronger.

…

As for the office of the Pope being an Anti-Christ: **Please be aware that our declaration on this is conditional on the Pope having the marks of the Anti-Christ in the Bible AND is also conditional on the Pope preaching something other than God’s Salvation through the cross. **

For me, Popes have proved time and time again that they neither have the marks, and they preach the Gospel with great strength. Defiantly not an Anti-Christ.

That’s not to say were not watching very very closely.

Pray tell us where or when has any Pope preached a different message? Luther added “faith alone” to the Bible and removed 7 books that he felt were “unworthy.” All in love. I was LCMS for a year so I won’t knock it but I did come back to the RCC. Even the Popes in the middle ages who did blatently sin never taught bad doctrine. Again, we won’t see eye to eye, which is the greater loss, but I’m stunned.

What are we judged on when we die? What passes through the fire? Works. Because FAITH WITHOUT WORKS is dead? I am still waiting on ANY protestant to show me proof where ANY catholic in the last 21 centuries has stated point blank that “works save us.”

None have. PAX CHRISTI!

 

[jinc1019]

Pray tell us where or when has any Pope preached a different message? Luther added “faith alone” to the Bible and removed 7 books that he felt were “unworthy.” All in love. I was LCMS for a year so I won’t knock it but I did come back to the RCC. Even the Popes in the middle ages who did blatently sin never taught bad doctrine. Again, we won’t see eye to eye, which is the greater loss, but I’m stunned.

What are we judged on when we die? What passes through the fire? Works. Because FAITH WITHOUT WORKS is dead? I am still waiting on ANY protestant to show me proof where ANY catholic in the last 21 centuries has stated point blank that “works save us.”

None have. PAX CHRISTI!

I appreciate the effort…However, this isn’t really the right thread for this question. Considering the person you are citing actually defended the papacy, you are being a bit overzealous. At any rate, there are MANY threads which address papal infallibility, papal authority, etc. where you can deliver this argument. In this thread, it’s off-topic. I don’t mean any offense at all, but it’s just really easy to get dragged into a debate about papal authority and infallibility on Catholic Answers and I want to avoid that.

 

[jinc1019]

Pray tell us where or when has any Pope preached a different message? Luther added “faith alone” to the Bible and removed 7 books that he felt were “unworthy.” All in love. I was LCMS for a year so I won’t knock it but I did come back to the RCC. Even the Popes in the middle ages who did blatently sin never taught bad doctrine. Again, we won’t see eye to eye, which is the greater loss, but I’m stunned.

What are we judged on when we die? What passes through the fire? Works. Because FAITH WITHOUT WORKS is dead? I am still waiting on ANY protestant to show me proof where ANY catholic in the last 21 centuries has stated point blank that “works save us.”

None have. PAX CHRISTI!

Also, your view of “bad doctrine” is subjective. Many throughout history have argued bad doctrine has plagued the Catholic Church so I am sure a Lutheran will have plenty to point out in his or her view.

 

[Jeff77]

Both the Small and Large Catechisms, and of course the Creeds, and pretty much the Apology of the Augsburg Confession.

Where the layman has room for divergent views is in areas of adiaphora, things indifferent. Such as most of the marian doctrines (except the virgin birth and Holy Theotokos). Another might be whether or not one considers Absolutiona sacrament, or an extension of Baptism.

Jon

Yes…I agree. I hold the view that confession and Holy Absolution is indeed a sacrament, because Jesus is present, through the pastor, and it is a means of grace. I don’t really understand the baptism extension…I have heard it explained, but I tend to set the two apart. I also tend to lean towards anointing with oil as sacramental too, because of the passage in James.

 

[just_came_back]

Also, your view of “bad doctrine” is subjective. Many throughout history have argued bad doctrine has plagued the Catholic Church so I am sure a Lutheran will have plenty to point out in his or her view.

You mean the many that can’t even agree with themselves over doctrine, the means of salvation, the real presence, etc, etc.?

You mean the many who wouldn’t even have Sacred Scripture without the Holy Spirit inspiring the universal church to compile and put it together? ALL of it?

Please tell me more. And I’m not offended in any way. PAX CHRISTI!

 

[just_came_back]

And again, not prodding. I was LCMS for a year and loved the people but ultimately could not accept their doctrine and left. I still maintain some contact with one of the members who is actually in Lutheran seminary for the ACLC(?) or some other conservative branch of Lutheranism.

 

[jinc1019]

Yeah I understand your view…but again…it’s not the place for it. It’s way off topic.

 

[just_came_back]

Yeah I understand your view…but again…it’s not the place for it. It’s way off topic.

It pertains to one of the original questions asked by the original poster.

 

[benjohnson]

The view of the Pope as the Anti-Christ? Six days of creation instead of allegory?

Ah HA! One of my favorite subjects - the literal six days of creation. Given that I’m a scientist you’d think it would drive me nuts that the LCMS maintains the six literal days of creation, and indeed I thought it was preposterous!

But, I realized that the “Bible was meant to be believed” and understood that to mean that the six days of creation were God’s time. While each creative act took one day, the effects of his six creative acts could be felt by us on a different scale of time.

As for viewing the Pope as the Anti-Christ, please be aware that it has nothing to do with recent popes and then only if the papal office maintains what we though was wrong back in the 1500’s. Sure… you’ll find some LCMS members that foam at the mouth about the Pope, but for me, he’d be welcome in my home with the best hospitality I could muster.

During the Papal elections, my church even prayed for your church’s electors that they would make a wise choice.

Now to answer you question directly, I could certainly think that a good LCMS member could have private misgivings about Genesis or the Pope, but we would certainly ask that they keep this to themselves.

We certainly not tolerate promulgation of any private idea that would hurt the salvation of any other person.

 

[jinc1019]

It pertains to one of the original questions asked by the original poster.

I am the original poster. And no it doesn’t.

 

[jinc1019]

Ah HA! One of my favorite subjects - the literal six days of creation. Given that I’m a scientist you’d think it would drive me nuts that the LCMS maintains the six literal days of creation, and indeed I thought it was preposterous!

But, I realized that the “Bible was meant to be believed” and understood that to mean that the six days of creation were God’s time. While each creative act took one day, the effects of his six creative acts could be felt by us on a different scale of time.

As for viewing the Pope as the Anti-Christ, please be aware that it has nothing to do with recent popes and then only if the papal office maintains what we though was wrong back in the 1500’s. Sure… you’ll find some LCMS members that foam at the mouth about the Pope, but for me, he’d be welcome in my home with the best hospitality I could muster.

During the Papal elections, my church even prayed for your church’s electors that they would make a wise choice.

Now to answer you question directly, I could certainly think that a good LCMS member could have private misgivings about Genesis or the Pope, but we would certainly ask that they keep this to themselves.

We certainly not tolerate promulgation of any private idea that would hurt the salvation of any other person.

Thanks Ben for the information…I find your view incredibly interesting about creation given that you are a conservative Lutheran. Most people certainly would not expect the response you gave! Again, your view on this has been very helpful.

Justin