Lax16,Hi Parker - I wonder if our friend asked if it would be okay. I will find out.
Won’t there always be known living family members as long as there are grandchildren, great grandchildren etc? So it stays in the database unaccessible forever for what reason?
Zaffiroborant,What safe guards are in place to insure that members follow these standards? And what consequences do LDS members face if they do not comply with standards?
ParkerD yes we should be kept to honor but America’s Government was founded on the “expect the best and prepare for the worst” idea I am not sure of what ideological time period you are referring to. And when you are dealing with peoples family members there needs to be restrictions on what can happen.Zaffiroborant,
The honor code is what it is, and what it used to mean in the United States of America. It means people are expected to comply on their honor, and that no policemen or detectives are expected to be looking over the shoulder. It means people are being trusted, period. There is a complete expectation of trust and trustworthiness. To do otherwise would be to say that there is suspicion that people are untrustworthy in this kind of spiritually-motivated work, and when that happens then the gospel and its message is a waste of time because it means people don’t believe that service with honor at its core is possible–that there are always hidden motives in the behavior of people.
Joseph Smith put it succinctly:
“I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves.”
Rock17,ParkerD yes we should be kept to honor but America’s Government was founded on the “expect the best and prepare for the worst” idea I am not sure of what ideological time period you are referring to. And when you are dealing with peoples family members there needs to be restrictions on what can happen.
And about privacy, you may keep these records private from the public but who sees it in the temple?
I’m sorry when you said “what it used to mean in the USA” I was just trying to figure out at what point did people live like that, from the start you had smugelers, thieves, corporate monopolisers, gangs, racists, corupt politicians, slave traders ect. just about in every time period of America there was corruption so I was just kind of confused.Rock17,
That would be a “level one” standard, and I agree the government has to have in place laws to protect about “preparing for the worst” behavior, but that doesn’t mean religions can’t have a higher standard in place than “level one”.
People are expected to read the rules and comply with them, and to do it honorably.
I suppose you have heard the term, “his word is his bond”. That would be the time period I was referring to.
All the sealer sees is a name and a birth date associated with the deceased person for whom a marriage sealing (or a baptism for the dead) is being done. A witness sees the name on the page or card being looked at by the sealer or the baptizer, to witness that the ordinance was correctly done.
Rock17,And I was also wondering does the sealer and witness have to take an oath of silence or anything about the information they see everytime they deal with someones family member?
Brotherly love? Are you kidding me? Meekness and humility - who are you talking about Parker?Rock17,
Not an “oath of silence”, but certainly an expectation of respect, confidentiality regarding the sacredness, non-boastfulness, and always seeking to live by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which means living by an attitude and behavior of gratitude, meekness, brotherly love, humility, helpfulness, a regard for the feelings of the person one is talking to, etc. as taught in the New Testament.
So you are saying the LDS have rights to my father-in-law’s info that the immediate family does not have access to - and that future family members will not have access to it - only the LDS church and its members?Lax16,
I meant immediate family members–living children–not grandchildren. The reason is for privacy of individuals who are still alive. A person who does family history research, LDS or not, is familiar with the term “living” in the context of a “family tree” with dates and so forth, and that it means there is data that is being protected for privacy reasons.
The fine print said “seeking to live by the guidance of the Holy Spirit,” which is what a person who has received the gift of the Holy Ghost is supposed to do, but that doesn’t mean they stop being human, (nor that one person will be able to be perfect in not making assumptions about another person, some of the time inaccurate assumptions). I live in an area of Utah that really does have unusual people–sort of the non-judgmental kind of people, and the go-out-of-your-way-to-be-helpful kind of people.Brotherly love? Are you kidding me? Meekness and humility - who are you talking about Parker?
I live in Utah - no way is what you are saying true.
I have to assume you mean a temple ordinance baptismal date. I was meaning that no LDS member has access to that either when the immediate family is “living”. But you could ask the member who told you whatever they told you, and see if they know the date and so forth.So you are saying the LDS have rights to my father-in-law’s info that the immediate family does not have access to - and that future family members will not have access to it - only the LDS church and its members?
I live in the part of Utah where people are extremely discourteous drivers, people send Christmas “cards” bragging about their kids, teenagers perform acts of vandalism for fun (and according to my LDS neighbor are "ward kids), eagle scout soon-to-be’s urinating on people’s property, neighbor telling us that it is “okay” that we’re Catholic but don’t forget who rules the roost around here…and these are all devout LDS.The fine print said “seeking to live by the guidance of the Holy Spirit,” which is what a person who has received the gift of the Holy Ghost is supposed to do, but that doesn’t mean they stop being human, (nor that one person will be able to be perfect in not making assumptions about another person, some of the time inaccurate assumptions). I live in an area of Utah that really does have unusual people–sort of the non-judgmental kind of people, and the go-out-of-your-way-to-be-helpful kind of people.
If the LDS member took the info and (name removed by moderator)ut into the database, they have access to it.I have to assume you mean a temple ordinance baptismal date. I was meaning that no LDS member has access to that either when the immediate family is “living”. But you could ask the member who told you whatever they told you, and see if they know the date and so forth.
Thanks for the clarification. So the LDS church is basically lying when they say they will not baptize a given group because they have no intention of following up in any manner to insure that it doesn’t happen.Zaffiroborant,
The honor code is what it is, and what it used to mean in the United States of America. It means people are expected to comply on their honor, and that no policemen or detectives are expected to be looking over the shoulder. It means people are being trusted, period. There is a complete expectation of trust and trustworthiness. To do otherwise would be to say that there is suspicion that people are untrustworthy in this kind of spiritually-motivated work, and when that happens then the gospel and its message is a waste of time because it means people don’t believe that service with honor at its core is possible–that there are always hidden motives in the behavior of people.
Joseph Smith put it succinctly:
“I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves.”
No–I think if you will study the actual agreements they do not “insure” that something of a temple ordinance where someone submitted a name and was not following the rules that are in place could not happen. They have reiterated that the rules for submission are in place, and are emphasized to the members.Thanks for the clarification. So the LDS church is basically lying when they say they will not baptize a given group because they have no intention of following up in any manner to insure that it doesn’t happen.
So when the living relative dies, I can have my families names taken off? How would I go about this? No one else in my family is Mormon. We are Catholic or Traditional Protestant. Whom, all have already recieved the sacrament of baptism at our parishes.Lax16,
I meant immediate family members–living children–not grandchildren. The reason is for privacy of individuals who are still alive. A person who does family history research, LDS or not, is familiar with the term “living” in the context of a “family tree” with dates and so forth, and that it means there is data that is being protected for privacy reasons.
I think so too, Lax.If the LDS member took the info and (name removed by moderator)ut into the database, they have access to it.
In the cases of Pres. Obama’s mother, St. Damien, and Jewish Holocaust victims, I think you might have to agree that the whole “honor code” thing isn’t working out so well.Zaffiroborant,
The honor code is what it is, and what it used to mean in the United States of America. It means people are expected to comply on their honor, and that no policemen or detectives are expected to be looking over the shoulder. It means people are being trusted, period. There is a complete expectation of trust and trustworthiness. To do otherwise would be to say that there is suspicion that people are untrustworthy in this kind of spiritually-motivated work, and when that happens then the gospel and its message is a waste of time because it means people don’t believe that service with honor at its core is possible–that there are always hidden motives in the behavior of people.
Joseph Smith put it succinctly:
“I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves.”
This is also in line with a recent event where one of the LDS church leaders made some unflattering remarks at general conference, which sparked some outrage. (I think it was related to homosexuality, but I could be wrong) After it was all said and done, the transcript was changed to reflect what he “meant” to say.I think so too, Lax.
Parker,
Not to be disrespectful, but what gives the LDS the right to do this? How do I know that generations from now. When I am long gone. My family history might be changed. My ancestors left Ireland because of the famine. I’m sure there wasn’t an LDS church any where in the Emerald Isle.
I think perhaps, LDS members don’t understand. How important our family trees are to us.
My ancestors went through enough hardship, because of their religion. Imagine going from being one of the Four Tribes of Galway. Owning what is now, Co. Rosscomon and western Galway. To near starvation, centuries later. My ancestors were Gaelic Celts. Dating back to before the Norman Invasion. I have even traced a linage to an ancient sept in Co, Cork. The Gaelic version of the name is so old. Irish historians are not sure. When they settled upon the land.
Is anyone safe?The Mormon Church baptized John Paul II into it after his death.