Question for LDS "Do you Marry the dead?"

[lax16]

Before I respond to KathleenG’s invitation, I would like to know if you (or any other LDS here) would be upset if a Catholic relative of a Mormon who died had a Mass offered on their behalf? If Catholic relatives prayed Rosaries for them?

How would you consider such actions? I know how I would have felt as a Mormon, but I do not want to put any words in anyone’s mouth.

Peter John - When one of our children was born, she was in great danger of serious health complications and lay in the neo-natal intensive care unit at our local hospital.

Protestants that I had never even met came in to see her when I wasn’t even there, leaving notes that they had come by to visit her and that many at their church were praying for her (I belonged to a bible study at their church though I attended the Catholic Church). We were so grateful!

Two of our LDS friends, who are considered priests in their own faith, came by and prayed over her. We were so grateful!

Praying for someone and offering the sacrifice and prayers of the mass for people IS NOT THE SAME as baptizing them.

If our Protestant and Mormon friends said they were coming by to baptize our baby daughter we would have never allowed it.
Praying for one another is not even close to baptizing each other.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I will hope Peter John can step in to explain this, and give us perspective…

Also, it makes me wonder what else Mormonism is hiding…I did contact my friend who has associations at the Vatican…

Of course, their rites have no effect on us…but I experience this chagrin more for those of the sacrament of Holy Orders and the Blessed/Saints…too many hands on that which is consecrated…follow me?..and in JPII’s case, not just that he is baptized, but that he is now considered a member of the Mormon church.

Yes, I hope we can have some more balance perspective here…

Thanks, Gatewood.

Kathleen,

The Mormon Church has repeatedly broken agreements to stop baptisms by proxy. Here are a few articles on the subject.

Vatican Warns of Mormon 'Baptism of the Dead’
* By Chaz Muth
* 5/3/2008
* Catholic News Service (www.catholicnews.com)
Link: catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=27825

U.S. Jewish group to Mormons: Stop baptizing Holocaust victims
Holocaust survivors end negotiations, saying church has repeatedly violated 13-year-old agreement.
Link: haaretz.com/jewish-world/news/u-s-jewish-group-to-mormons-stop-baptizing-holocaust-victims-1.256935

**Mormons, Jews Reach Accord Over Proxy Baptism **
Joanna Brooks
September 2, 2010
Link: religiondispatches.org/dispatches/joannabrooks/3263/mormons,_jews_reach_accord_over_proxy_baptism/

IMO: probably the most ironic baptism by proxy is that of Adolf Hitler.

The Mormon Church Attempts to Conceal
Temple Records for Adolf Hitler
By Helen Radkey
Link: utlm.org/onlineresources/hitlertemplework.htm

Peace,
Anna

 

[Peter_John]

Peter John - When one of our children was born, she was in great danger of serious health complications and lay in the neo-natal intensive care unit at our local hospital.

Protestants that I had never even met came in to see her when I wasn’t even there, leaving notes that they had come by to visit her and that many at their church were praying for her (I belonged to a bible study at their church though I attended the Catholic Church). We were so grateful!

Two of our LDS friends, who are considered priests in their own faith, came by and prayed over her. We were so grateful!

Praying for someone and offering the sacrifice and prayers of the mass for people IS NOT THE SAME as baptizing them.

If our Protestant and Mormon friends said they were coming by to baptize our baby daughter we would have never allowed it.
Praying for one another is not even close to baptizing each other.

This discusses what is done for the living. The issue at hand is how the varied faiths show the same concern for the dead.

Since the Vatican now considers even normal LDS baptism invalid, how can their practice of proxy baptism for the dead, from a Catholic perspective, be anything but a well-intentioned gesture?

Even within their own faith Mormons believe that the ordinances (sacraments in Catholic terms) they perform on behalf of those who have died carry no weight without the consent in the afterlife of those for whom they are performed. Nothing they do alters the history of the person’s life. Nothing makes them actual members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They do not even claim to know if the ordinances are accepted by those for whom they are performed, except for a few anecdotal accounts involving specific individuals who purportedly so manifested either to themselves or Church leaders. In a Catholic perspective, it carries no more weight than a well-intentioned prayer for the dead.

 

[lax16]

This discusses what is done for the living. The issue at hand is how the varied faiths show the same concern for the dead.

Since the Vatican now considers even normal LDS baptism invalid, how can their practice of proxy baptism for the dead, from a Catholic perspective, be anything but a well-intentioned gesture?

Baptism and prayer are not the same thing. Baptism is for membership. I don’t know anyone who would object to prayers for their dead or living.

from the official lds website:

Baptism

Baptism by immersion in water by one having authority is the first saving ordinance of the gospel and** is necessary for an individual to become a member of The Church of Jesus ****Christ of Latter-day Saints **and to receive eternal salvation. All who seek eternal life must follow the example of the Savior by being baptized and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Even within their own faith Mormons believe that the ordinances (sacraments in Catholic terms) they perform on behalf of those who have died carry no weight without the consent in the afterlife of those for whom they are performed. Nothing they do alters the history of the person’s life. Nothing makes them actual members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They do not even claim to know if the ordinances are accepted by those for whom they are performed, except for a few anecdotal accounts involving specific individuals who purportedly so manifested either to themselves or Church leaders. In a Catholic perspective, it carries no more weight than a well-intentioned prayer for the dead.

Are you listening? **We don’t want the LDS accessing our family members **info and baptizing them - do you understand??!!

Don’t justify their actions by saying Catholics don’t recognize LDS baptism.

Baptism = membership
prayers = God hears all of us

 

[Peter_John]

Kathleen,

The Mormon Church has repeatedly broken agreements to stop baptisms by proxy. Here are a few articles on the subject.

Vatican Warns of Mormon 'Baptism of the Dead’

• By Chaz Muth
• 5/3/2008
• Catholic News Service (www.catholicnews.com)
  Link: catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=27825

U.S. Jewish group to Mormons: Stop baptizing Holocaust victims
Holocaust survivors end negotiations, saying church has repeatedly violated 13-year-old agreement.
Link: haaretz.com/jewish-world/news/u-s-jewish-group-to-mormons-stop-baptizing-holocaust-victims-1.256935

**Mormons, Jews Reach Accord Over Proxy Baptism **
Joanna Brooks
September 2, 2010
Link: religiondispatches.org/dispatches/joannabrooks/3263/mormons,_jews_reach_accord_over_proxy_baptism/

IMO: probably the most ironic baptism by proxy is that of Adolf Hitler.

The Mormon Church Attempts to Conceal
Temple Records for Adolf Hitler
By Helen Radkey
Link: utlm.org/onlineresources/hitlertemplework.htm

Peace,
Anna

I think I am going to ask to schedule a mass for Osama Bin Laden.

As far as I know when LDS Church members or sympathetic non-members request ordinances for anyone to whoim they are related – however distant – that does not contradict any of these agreements. However many family members may not like it, it only takes one to give consent. If a member can establish that 20 generations ago they share a common ancestor with your late grandmother, that work will likely get done.

The thing is, you do not have to go that far back to find common ancestors among most people of European descent. Twenty generations past have more than a half-million concurrent ancestors, and another half-million in between (granted, that far back you become your own distant cousin as your distant great-grandparent on one line also becomes your distant forebear on another).

If they find that someone – such as families in the holocaust – with no surviving family or descendants, they can argue a responsibility to tend to the work, as no known living family can see to it. They have a standard procedure for dealing with public figures, particularly government leaders. As they lean on the KJV they apply verses that once reinforced the divine right of Kings as one doctrinal basis for believing individual governments beinbg as they are for God’s own purposes.

 

[lax16]

I think I am going to ask to schedule a mass for Osama Bin Laden.

Are you using this as a threat or to prove a point?

Personally, I have prayed for his soul many times. I would hope you have done the same.

Interesting - do you think the Mormons baptized him? Or prayed for him?

 

[lax16]

As far as I know when LDS Church members or sympathetic non-members request ordinances for anyone to whoim they are related – however distant – that does not contradict any of these agreements. However many family members may not like it, it only takes one to give consent. If a member can establish that 20 generations ago they share a common ancestor with your late grandmother, that work will likely get done.

Perhaps you have not been following this thread very closely…

Our LDS friend had my Jewish father-in-law baptized after his death.
They are NOT RELATED.

The thing is, you do not have to go that far back to find common ancestors among most people of European descent. Twenty generations past have more than a half-million concurrent ancestors, and another half-million in between (granted, that far back you become your own distant cousin as your distant great-grandparent on one line also becomes your distant forebear on another).

Oh this is great - when they go back 20 generations and see that the Irish relatives WERE ALWAYS CATHOLIC does this then disprove THE APOSTASY?

If they find that someone – such as families in the holocaust – with no surviving family or descendants, they can argue a responsibility to tend to the work, as no known living family can see to it. They have a standard procedure for dealing with public figures, particularly government leaders. As they lean on the KJV they apply verses that once reinforced the divine right of Kings as one doctrinal basis for believing individual governments beinbg as they are for God’s own purposes.

If someone is Jewish, whether or not they have living relatives, they have a right to be protected from LDS baptism by a Rabbi and that has already been done.

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . . Nothing they do alters the history of the person’s life. Nothing makes them actual members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They do not even claim to know if the ordinances are accepted by those for whom they are performed, except for a few anecdotal accounts involving specific individuals who purportedly so manifested either to themselves or Church leaders. In a Catholic perspective, it carries no more weight than a well-intentioned prayer for the dead.

Peter John,

Are you defending the LDS practice of Baptism by proxy? It matters to me. It matters to the Jewish people, and to many Christians, including your own Church.

Even a formal resignation in life does not prevent the Mormon Church from performing proxy rites for a person after death.

This link takes you to Mormon Temple & quotInitiatory" Ceremonies: lds-mormon.com/veilworker/rituals.shtml

Even though Mormons will tell you that the dead are offered this Baptism, there is no choice written into the temple rites.

This is the Reconfirmation rite for those who have been excommunicated or had their names removed from the records of the Church while they were still living.

**RECONFIRMATION

This ceremony restores temple blessings lost through excommunication or by one’s name having been removed from the records of the Church.**

Brother _______, in the name of Jesus Christ, we lay our hands upon your head [for and in behalf of _______, who is dead], and confirm you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and say unto you, Receive the Holy Ghost, and confirm upon you all your former Church and Temple blessings. Amen.

. . . .On Oct 21, 2009, I called the Member Records Division, LDS Church, 1-800-453-3860, x22053. Brother ??? (refused to give his name) looked up my name and said they received my letter of resignation, and it was processed in May 1997.

I asked Brother ??? if he would send me a copy of my letter of resignation. He refused, saying my letter is now “property of the church.”

I asked him how my name appeared in LDS baptismal records, or any other rites performed for me. He said he was not allowed to give me that information.

I told him I am aware that baptisms and other rites are performed by proxy. He told me this would not be done, “while you are still living.” I told him I did not want rites performed by proxy after my death; and that I would send a letter stating the same. He was silent on the issue.

So, even though I clearly rejected Mormonism in life, my name would still be there for the LDS church to use as they see fit, once I am deceased. Very disturbing.

Peace,
Anna

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, Peter John for stepping in…I am going out the door…I have no problem Mormons praying for me, whatever their intentions.

Incorporating someone by Mormon baptism is invalid, papal defined by John Paul II himself.

Baptism incorporates one into the Body of Christ…you can say people are baptized into the universal, apostolic faith through Catholic Christian baptism…The Catholic Church authored the rite of baptism.

And it can never be washed off…and a person with the age of reason…cannot or should not be baptized against their will. God honors one’s intentions.

But even though we Catholics accept baptism for all Christians, we also know that to be Catholic, one must profess the Creed and believe in the presence of Christ within the sacraments…then they are formally accepted as Catholics – without any fanfare… The former Protestant goes to the pastor, informs him of his faith in the Apostolic/Nicene creed and belief Christ in the sacraments, and they can participate immediately in full communion at Mass.

They must consent with full consent, and with full belief in the Church’s teachings.

If anything, to claim one of the greatest popes in history – who himself invalidated Mormon baptisms – and is recognized as a member by the Mormon Church is needs to be brought to attention of the Vatican.

But thanks for posting and giving some perspective.

 

[Peter_John]

Baptism and prayer are not the same thing. Baptism is for membership. I don’t know anyone who would object to prayers for their dead or living.

from the official lds website:

Baptism

Baptism by immersion in water by one having authority is the first saving ordinance of the gospel and** is necessary for an individual to become a member of The Church of Jesus ****Christ of Latter-day Saints **and to receive eternal salvation. All who seek eternal life must follow the example of the Savior by being baptized and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Are you listening? **We don’t want the LDS accessing our family members **info and baptizing them - do you understand??!!

Don’t justify their actions by saying Catholics don’t recognize LDS baptism.

Baptism = membership
prayers = God hears all of us

Your citation refers to convert baptisms only. Baptism for the dead is a distinct ordinance (sacrament) from baptism itself. It also looks like I erred in my prior post about Holocaust victims:

As required by Church doctrine, a temple baptism is noted on Church records. However, the Church does not list persons as members of the Church or “Mormons” merely because proxy baptisms have been performed. Church doctrine teaches that at some point the spirit of the deceased person will be informed that a baptism has been performed on his or her behalf and will be given the opportunity to accept or reject it. ***The Church has no way of knowing whether a person has accepted the baptism and thus does not consider such persons Church members. ***In this way, Church members extend the opportunity to accept the Church’s message and faith to all people.

Although the Church teaches that temple baptisms must eventually be performed for everyone who did not receive them in this life, from the beginning Church members have been taught to focus their efforts on their own relatives. Hundreds of thousands of members throughout the world conduct private genealogical research to determine the names of their departed relatives and then submit those names to temples for the performance of proxy baptisms. The process for submitting names is relatively open and depends on the accuracy and good-faith of Church members around the world. Because any Church member can research and submit names for temple baptisms, errors and duplications sometimes occur.

Church members are specifically instructed not to submit the names of persons not related to them. Before performing temple baptisms for a deceased family member born within the last 95 years, members are instructed to get permission from the person’s closest living relative. Out of deference to the unique place Holocaust victims hold in world history, the Church also has a policy that temple baptisms for Jewish Holocaust victims cannot be performed unless the Church member is an immediate family member or has the permission of all living immediate family members or the closest living relative if no immediate family members are living. The Church removes from its “International Genealogical Index” (IGI) names identified as submitted against Church policy.

newsroom.lds.org/article/background-explanation-of-temple-baptism

It actually looks like the current policies are more tight then they used to be, specifying closer relationships for some things.

The records they use are public records, and realize it or not their peculiar practice has done everyone a favor. They have secured the preservation of millions of public records that might otherwise be threatened by any manner of disaster. For more recent records they depend on living LDS members and sympathizers. If you can convince any living relatives who may be LDS NOT to submit your common ancestors names for temple work, go ahead. Otherwise there really is nothing you can do about it.

Better to just consider it what it is: a charitable gesture.

Don’t get mad – Get even!

Mormons think they are the only ones who do work for the dead, but our tradition dates back to centuries before Christ (1 Maccabees).

Get a copy of the handbook of indulgences and start doing things to earn plenary indulgences, then pray for the indulgence to go to some Mormon who has passed away (Joseph Smith might be a good one-enough people do that, it might take.) If that does not seem enough, post a website showing for whom you have done this, and get a long catalog going.

Or, if you have LDS relatives who have passed away, schedule a mass on their behalf and invite living LDS relatives to attend – Better yet…

Take it a step they cannot go: Have a mass said for a living LDS relative – it will do them better than 100 said after they die, whether they attend or not. Gain a plenary indulgence and do the same.

Let Mormons do all the work they want on behalf of the dead. God is the God of the living, and unlike Mormons, Catholics can do work beyond simple personal prayers and evangelization on behalf of those still living.

 

[Peter_John]

Perhaps you have not been following this thread very closely…

Our LDS friend had my Jewish father-in-law baptized after his death.
They are NOT RELATED.

Oh this is great - when they go back 20 generations and see that the Irish relatives WERE ALWAYS CATHOLIC does this then disprove THE APOSTASY?

If someone is Jewish, whether or not they have living relatives, they have a right to be protected from LDS baptism by a Rabbi and that has already been done.

The baptism of your Jewish father-in-law should not have happened, and someone would have to have misrepresented the relationship. By LDS doctrine any ordinance performed under pretense is not valid anyway in the eyes of God.

Regarding the Apostasy question, from an LDS perspective that would actually prove the Apostasy. My point is we are all more closely related than we think. We might be surprised with what people we have common ancestors.

If a rabbi can help with suuch a thing, more power to them. I cannot speak to a Jewish perspective. From a Catholic perspective worrying about the consequences of LDS ordinances for the dead constitutes nothing but superstition. From that perspective their organization has no valid divine authority, and denies Christ’s true apostolic succession. You might as well be worried about a voodoo ritual – except that in this case the people performing ardently belive in the divinity of Christ and consider this the best they can do for those who have died. Remember that doing work on behalf of those who have dies of any religion is an inherent part of Catholicism, and always has been. We just make it simpler, trusting God to keep track of who is related to whom?

 

[Peter_John]

Peter John,

Are you defending the LDS practice of Baptism by proxy? It matters to me. It matters to the Jewish people, and to many Christians, including your own Church.

Even a formal resignation in life does not prevent the Mormon Church from performing proxy rites for a person after death.

This link takes you to Mormon Temple & quotInitiatory" Ceremonies: lds-mormon.com/veilworker/rituals.shtml

Even though Mormons will tell you that the dead are offered this Baptism, there is no choice written into the temple rites.

This is the Reconfirmation rite for those who have been excommunicated or had their names removed from the records of the Church while they were still living.

So, even though I clearly rejected Mormonism in life, my name would still be there for the LDS church to use as they see fit, once I am deceased. Very disturbing.

Peace,
Anna

I am not defending the practice. I merely affirm that it is nothing with which to be concerned. It does not put someone’s name on their membership roles. In fact, the mere fact they practice proxy baptisms for the dead figures strongly in the Vatican decision to declare LDS baptism invalid. All of the assumptions on which the practice is based are erroneous to begin with. It can do no harm, but in the context of representing prayers of concern for the dead it may even help.

From a Jewish perspective, maybe consider it the LDS way of praying Kaddish.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I am not defending the practice. I merely affirm that it is nothing with which to be concerned. It does not put someone’s name on their membership roles. In fact, the mere fact they practice proxy baptisms for the dead figures strongly in the Vatican decision to declare LDS baptism invalid. All of the assumptions on which the practice is based are erroneous to begin with. It can do no harm, but in the context of representing prayers of concern for the dead it may even help.

From a Jewish perspective, maybe consider it the LDS way of praying Kaddish.

Peter John,
I disagree. I don’t want Mormon rites or their prayers to a god who is an exalted man. IOW, I don’t want pagan prayers offered for me or my family.
Anna

 

[lax16]

The baptism of your Jewish father-in-law should not have happened, and someone would have to have misrepresented the relationship. By LDS doctrine any ordinance performed under pretense is not valid anyway in the eyes of God.

Regarding the Apostasy question, from an LDS perspective that would actually prove the Apostasy. My point is we are all more closely related than we think. We might be surprised with what people we have common ancestors.

If a rabbi can help with suuch a thing, more power to them. I cannot speak to a Jewish perspective. From a Catholic perspective worrying about the consequences of LDS ordinances for the dead constitutes nothing but superstition. From that perspective their organization has no valid divine authority, and denies Christ’s true apostolic succession. You might as well be worried about a voodoo ritual – except that in this case the people performing ardently belive in the divinity of Christ and consider this the best they can do for those who have died. Remember that doing work on behalf of those who have dies of any religion is an inherent part of Catholicism, and always has been. We just make it simpler, trusting God to keep track of who is related to whom?

Peter John - I understand - I tell people it is like ‘fairy dust’.

However, that is no consolation to those who do not believe as we do - the Jews for example.

To not respect the wishes of religious institutions is down-right rude. It is alienating and offensive.

In all honestly, I think a big reason they do all of this busy work is to keep their members busy. Temple ordinance this and that…

Also, I am still trying to hammer home the weirdness of someone tampering with my family info.

btw - do they MARRY the dead as well? Has this ever been answered?
We have read that Blessed John Paul II has been baptized and confirmed - WHAT ABOUT MARRIED??

 

[zaffiroborant]

It actually looks like the current policies are more tight then they used to be, specifying closer relationships for some things.

There is nothing tight about their “policies”, there is nothing in place to see that they are followed and no consequences for failure to follow them. There is an utter lack of sincerity from the LDS church in regards to these “policies”.

 

[Inishfree]

Perhaps you have not been following this thread very closely…

Our LDS friend had my Jewish father-in-law baptized after his death.
They are NOT RELATED.

Oh this is great - when they go back 20 generations and see that the Irish relatives WERE ALWAYS CATHOLIC does this then disprove THE APOSTASY?

If someone is Jewish, whether or not they have living relatives, they have a right to be protected from LDS baptism by a Rabbi and that has already been done.

My ancestors are so Irish. I think. They may have been baptised by Saint Patrick. Two ancient gaelic bloodlines for certain. There may be more. I still searching.

Kidding aside. I am shocked the LDS church baptised Blessed John Paul. They had no right to do this. To me, it is saying that my childhood protestant faith and now catholic. Do not matter.

I hope the Jewish people can stop them. It will open the doors for catholics and protestants. I have close protestant friends, different denominations and not one of them has even heard of baptisim of the dead. This is not a christian practice.

 

[sojo]

Yes, if you reread the first few pages, it is confirmed they do temple marriage sealings for folks who were married in life but not in the temple. And possibly also for others who they have some reason to believe deserve it. And possibly (not confirmed) a few temple marriage sealings for celibates.

I am of mixed mind with the baptisms. I know it is just silly foolishness, and I know actual Mormon youth who claim they believed in the first few proxy baptisms but then it became rote and silly and they just felt water-logged and put upon to waste time getting dunked over and over.

But being Jewish by birth, I know how devoutly my relatives held, through much suffering and pogroms and torture to their belief in ONE God. Monotheism is the cornerstone of their faith. Millions have died for that for many more years than Christians even existed. To sit through a devout Passover is to understand how devoutly these people cherish the first commandment.

To have these devout souls baptized (which is actually biblical and very Jewish) in the name of what they perceive to be 3 gods (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), and for one of those gods to be human being, an actual man declaring himself God (the ultimate blasphemy)… it is beyond belief how Mormons who claim to love mankind can be so insensitive and cruel.

It does cast a light on exactly how “Christian” such folks who desperately try to claim they are Christians really are.

It seems when the light of public opinion shone on this issue (the baptism of holocaust Jews), they made official backtracks, but in reality, they still do what they mean to do. Just like the “milk before meat” stuff where you don’t get the full faith when you are being evangelized, but over time, you learn the big Mormon secrets. The LDS is still quite Masonic in make-up. Just like the Masonic signs embroidered on their underwear.

 

[Inishfree]

Well said Sojo and I agree. It is very disrespectful that the LDS church is invalidating another person’s religious belief.

In America, they are covered under the religious freedom laws. But, where is your’s and my religious freedom?

I think the LDS should honor my wishes and take off the family names. I have requested. If my grand parents were still living. There is no way on God’s earth they would have become Mormons. Both recieved the sacrament of baptism as infants and were devout Christians.

 

[Peter_John]

There is nothing tight about their “policies”, there is nothing in place to see that they are followed and no consequences for failure to follow them. There is an utter lack of sincerity from the LDS church in regards to these “policies”.

I said more tight than they used to be. They used to get the lists and start the baptisms.

 

[Peter_John]

Peter John - I understand - I tell people it is like ‘fairy dust’.

However, that is no consolation to those who do not believe as we do - the Jews for example.

To not respect the wishes of religious institutions is down-right rude. It is alienating and offensive.

In all honestly, I think a big reason they do all of this busy work is to keep their members busy. Temple ordinance this and that…

Also, I am still trying to hammer home the weirdness of someone tampering with my family info.

btw - do they MARRY the dead as well? Has this ever been answered?
We have read that Blessed John Paul II has been baptized and confirmed - WHAT ABOUT MARRIED??

They do marry the dead, that is couples who were married in life but not married in the temple. They perform this for time and all eternity so they may have the option oif choosing. I recall some talk and indication from my years of study and attendance that they at least used to seal women who died single to authorities of the Church, again subject to acceptance in the afterlife. I cannot confirm this an actual practice, though it at least appears to have been experimented with back in the days of isolation in Utah.

The tough part with arguing the overal practice of proxy ordinances is that when the policies are followed it can do nothing to infringe on the religious rights of the person who has died, but restricting it infringes on what the living LDS relatives consider a religious responsibility – that is when it is done right.

I agree with those who say oversight fails, as indicated by my cousin’s experience drawing my LDS grandfather’s name.