Question for LDS "Do you Marry the dead?"

[rock17]

Baptism has to be performed in a mortal state before the resurrection either to one personally or on behalf of one if dead. In the spirit world they neother baptize nor perform baptisms, they can only accept what is done on their behalf in mortality.

Regarding St Damien, I have never heard the claim that he was married to someone by proxy in the temple before, and would not know how to validate or invalidate the claim. It is consistent with the perception I described of how things can be done and have been done in the past. St. Damien is significant as he was so revered in Hawaii, and Hawaii was such a hotbed of LDS activity at the same time, that many Hawaiian converts would have highly revered him (kind of like the way every Christian denomination likes to claim C. S. Lewis). One way to look at it is that such an act would be the LDS way of saying “We’re sure he gets the highest place in heaven too.” I learned about then Father Damien just a bit before my mission, and I was sure that Gid would not let his being Catholic keep him out of the Celestial Kingdom.

I’ll try to answer the last several all at once. LDS do not recognize the Didache as a valid teaching of the apostles anyway. their Biblical support (not basis-nothing in Mormonism is Biblically based except Joseph Smith’s impetus to pray resulting in his first vision) Biblical support is Paul’s argument supporting resurrection saying it is stupid to baptize for the dead if the dead rise not at all. There are nummerous other ways to explain it than as evidence of it being a valid Church practice, but my favorite is that we are all baptized in the name of someone “dead” when we take a confirmation name.

1.) lets say we can be baptised after we die, lets say i am baptised right after i die but it takes longer for me to accept the BOM and all the other things to that sort, After I am baptised how long would I have to make a decision?
2.) So Damien could have been sealed to a women even though he was not married on earth? And ofcourse him being a Catholic priest who devoted his life to the work of God did not keep him out of Heaven! He married himself to God’s work! Does that not go against the rule of unmarried men can only make it to heaven if God says so? Why would he be sealed if he chose to be celibate?
3.) Thats interesting they don’t accept the handbook of the original Apostles so where the original also in Apostasy if what they wrote was not correct.
And when we are confirmed we choose a PATRON! Someone we want to model after. We where already baptized now we are recieving the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Patron is a saint to model after.

 

[Peter_John]

1.) lets say we can be baptised after we die, lets say i am baptised right after i die but it takes longer for me to accept the BOM and all the other things to that sort, After I am baptised how long would I have to make a decision?
2.) So Damien could have been sealed to a women even though he was not married on earth? And ofcourse him being a Catholic priest who devoted his life to the work of God did not keep him out of Heaven! He married himself to God’s work! Does that not go against the rule of unmarried men can only make it to heaven if God says so? Why would he be sealed if he chose to be celibate?
3.) Thats interesting they don’t accept the handbook of the original Apostles so where the original also in Apostasy if what they wrote was not correct.
And when we are confirmed we choose a PATRON! Someone we want to model after. We where already baptized now we are recieving the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Patron is a saint to model after.

You are mixing catholic and LDS paradigms. i am trying to help see the LDS practice from a Catholic perspective. His being a priest would not, in LDS perspective, help him get into the Celestial Kingdom, and might even hinder it normally.

As far as how much time LDS doctrine would give you in the next life (or whether or not you even qualify to so choose in the next life) nothing says.It depends on when and where you receive a witness of the Holy Ghost that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and a revealer of Christ, and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true and living church (which used to be a question on the baptismal interview, and I expect still is). Only God can judge when you received that witness and if you accepted it.

Mormon theology teaches that if you reject that witness in mortality you do not get a second chance in the spirit world. They do temple work for those that may seem to reject it (people who leave the church or some who get excommunicated) because only God can say if they received that witness from the Holy Ghost.
They generally wait a year after someone dies to perform work for them.

I said – to make it clear – I do not know what they did with Father Damien’s name, but in their belief system it would have no value if he does not accept it. The ordinance does not change any records about his life and activity on Earth.

We take on the names of Patrons who no longer live, at least among us on Earth. We do this at our baptism or associated confirmation. They are, by literal definition, dead, even if they still live in Spirit and are in heaven. My point is that the only Bible verse that can have any application to support the Mormon practice of baptism for the dead could just as easily indicate an early Christian practice similar to our taking on Saint’s names now. Most theologians interpret that verse otherwise, as far as I know.

I hope that clarifies things. Your responses need not be so combative. I am not arguing with you, but trying to answer your questions.

 

[lax16]

Okay, but my question is this:

in the case of Blessed John Paul II and Blessed Mother Theresa…would they be married to someone in order to achieve the highest level of heaven? The were baptized, confirmed, then…???

Why stop there?

This is my fourth request for an answer from an LDS person. Parker???

 

[lax16]

Not according to this article about Saint Damien of Molokai. Apparently he has been “sealed” to a woman named Marie even though he was a celibate priest.

Wow - unbelievable article. Thanks for posting this.

If they have done this for Saint Damien, I am pretty sure they have done it for other saints.

 

[zaffiroborant]

And is there any validity to Z’s post about St. Damien.

I’m just curious but why would Peter John be a more accurate source for information on this than The Salt Lake Tribune, a newspaper that has been recognized nationally for religious reporting and the source of the article I linked.? Even the Mormon Times doesn’t dispute that this occurred in their op-ed piece here all that is questioned is Ms. Radkey and the SLCT’s motives in publishing the article on St. Damien.

 

[Inishfree]

Wow - unbelievable article. Thanks for posting this.

If they have done this for Saint Damien, I am pretty sure they have done it for other saints.

Most likely. I haven’t been able to google any info. On what other saints.

 

[ParkerD]

This is my fourth request for an answer from an LDS person. Parker???

Lax16,

I had thought there was enough conversation on the topic that it would be redundant answer to your question.

Since they had no marriage during this life, there would be no valid reason to submit either name for a sealing in marriage. The reason an overzealous member might submit their work of baptism for the dead and sealing to their parents, might be that they might qualify for a place in the celestial kingdom since there are “three levels or degrees” there. But such a submittal should have been only by a relative (with some kind of pedigree connection) who is a Latter-day Saint member.

In the case of women who weren’t married in this life, one can assume that if a sealing in marriage needs to happen for some who so qualify through their desires they had in this life but didn’t fulfill, it will be made known to someone on earth during the Millennium before the resurrection of that person.

Have a splendid day.

 

[lax16]

Most likely. I haven’t been able to google any info. On what other saints.

I am sure that once they heard that the info on Saint Damien got accessed they put it under lock and key.

Which is why we are still waiting for an answer about Blesseds John Paul II and Mother Theresa…I know that these faithful Catholics are quite popular among the Mormons here in Utah. Several have said to me that they consider JP II to have been a very special man.

I told an LDS woman that I know, actually she overheard me telling a Catholic woman, that the beatification of JP II was going to be on TV on May 1st. The Catholic said, “oh I don’t care about that kind of stuff” and the LDS woman said “oh, I just love him. In fact, I just got goose bumps all over my arms when you mentioned his name!”

Recently, we had an LDS friend over for dinner and all he could talk about was Blessed Mother Theresa - funny, he would not accept the fact that she was a Catholic nun!

 

[lax16]

Lax16,

I had thought there was enough conversation on the topic that it would be redundant answer to your question.

Since they had no marriage during this life, there would be no valid reason to submit either name for a sealing in marriage. The reason an overzealous member might submit their work of baptism for the dead and sealing to their parents, might be that they might qualify for a place in the celestial kingdom since there are “three levels or degrees” there. But such a submittal should have been only by a relative (with some kind of pedigree connection) who is a Latter-day Saint member.

In the case of women who weren’t married in this life, one can assume that if a sealing in marriage needs to happen for some who so qualify through their desires they had in this life but didn’t fulfill, it will be made known to someone on earth during the Millennium before the resurrection of that person.

Have a splendid day.

Hi Parker - No, my question is specific to Blesseds John Paul II and Mother Theresa.

If Saint Damien was sealed to someone then are you saying he told someone while he was alive that he wanted to be married?

Also, were Blessed John Paul II and Mother Theresa sealed to anyone after their deaths?
Yes or No.

 

[SalesianSDB]

Hi Parker - No, my question is specific to Blesseds John Paul II and Mother Theresa.

If Saint Damien was sealed to someone then are you saying he told someone while he was alive that he wanted to be married?

Also, were Blessed John Paul II and Mother Theresa sealed to anyone after their deaths?
Yes or No.

I remember a year or so ago I found a website that had a list of people who were baptized in the church. I remember searching people like the founding fathers and other dead celebrities. This website had all the records for people who were baptized both while alive and dead. I’m trying to find it, but I don’t seem to have any luck with it. I would say if you try looking see if you could find it. It may end this debate once and for all.

 

[rock17]

You are mixing catholic and LDS paradigms. i am trying to help see the LDS practice from a Catholic perspective. His being a priest would not, in LDS perspective, help him get into the Celestial Kingdom, and might even hinder it normally.

As far as how much time LDS doctrine would give you in the next life (or whether or not you even qualify to so choose in the next life) nothing says.It depends on when and where you receive a witness of the Holy Ghost that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and a revealer of Christ, and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true and living church (which used to be a question on the baptismal interview, and I expect still is). Only God can judge when you received that witness and if you accepted it.

Mormon theology teaches that if you reject that witness in mortality you do not get a second chance in the spirit world. They do temple work for those that may seem to reject it (people who leave the church or some who get excommunicated) because only God can say if they received that witness from the Holy Ghost.
They generally wait a year after someone dies to perform work for them.

I said – to make it clear – I do not know what they did with Father Damien’s name, but in their belief system it would have no value if he does not accept it. The ordinance does not change any records about his life and activity on Earth.

We take on the names of Patrons who no longer live, at least among us on Earth. We do this at our baptism or associated confirmation. They are, by literal definition, dead, even if they still live in Spirit and are in heaven. My point is that the only Bible verse that can have any application to support the Mormon practice of baptism for the dead could just as easily indicate an early Christian practice similar to our taking on Saint’s names now. Most theologians interpret that verse otherwise, as far as I know.

I hope that clarifies things. Your responses need not be so combative. I am not arguing with you, but trying to answer your questions.

I am very sorry if I came off a combative, I to am just trying to get to the bottom of this and can sometimes get annoyed, nothing I said was a personal attack and I hope you can forgive me.

 

[Inishfree]

I am sure that once they heard that the info on Saint Damien got accessed they put it under lock and key.

Which is why we are still waiting for an answer about Blesseds John Paul II and Mother Theresa…I know that these faithful Catholics are quite popular among the Mormons here in Utah. Several have said to me that they consider JP II to have been a very special man.

I told an LDS woman that I know, actually she overheard me telling a Catholic woman, that the beatification of JP II was going to be on TV on May 1st. The Catholic said, “oh I don’t care about that kind of stuff” and the LDS woman said “oh, I just love him. In fact, I just got goose bumps all over my arms when you mentioned his name!”

Recently, we had an LDS friend over for dinner and all he could talk about was Blessed Mother Theresa - funny, he would not accept the fact that she was a Catholic nun!

That is funny. Everyone knows Blessed Mother Thereas was a Catholic nun. I guess the Mormons never watched the news or don’t care.

 

[Peter_John]

I am very sorry if I came off a combative, I to am just trying to get to the bottom of this and can sometimes get annoyed, nothing I said was a personal attack and I hope you can forgive me.

Oh, I didn’t see any personal attack. Nothing to forgive. It just seemed that some of your responses took what I wrote to unjustified extremes.

 

[rock17]

I would like Parker to answer this but anyone can if they want to,

I know that baptizing an marrying the dead does not change records but when it comes to cases such as people who where celebate does it not seem disrespectful to seal them to somebody? Like in the case of St. Damien. Or baptise someone who clearly showed no interest here on earth and was a leader of a different faith? These people who believed in the Trinity so they would not even accept the way the lds baptise because it may seem same in practice but you are baptising in a different name.
I am just wondering if you can see how this can be considered disrespectful?

 

[ParkerD]

I would like Parker to answer this but anyone can if they want to,

I know that baptizing and marrying the dead does not change records but when it comes to cases such as people who where celibate does it not seem disrespectful to seal them to somebody? Like in the case of St. Damien. Or baptise someone who clearly showed no interest here on earth and was a leader of a different faith? These people who believed in the Trinity so they would not even accept the way the lds baptise because it may seem same in practice but you are baptising in a different name.
I am just wondering if you can see how this can be considered disrespectful?

Rock17,

I can see why someone might feel it to be disrespectful in either kind of case, but on the other hand, it could also be considered by the person who did the submission to be “very respectful” because they were showing that they loved the person so much, and respected the sincerity of their “Christian way of life” meaning how they treated others and loved God, that they might think “once this person realizes (in the spirit world) that it really does take the authority that Christ had to give and to take away and to restore, then there seems to be a reasonable chance they will really want the gift of the Holy Ghost to help them become sanctified and prepare for the Celestial glory”.

(That could be in such a member’s mind who made a submission, even if they were being overzealous by it not being one of their own relatives or even if they made a mistake about a marriage by not being careful in how they looked at records.)

As far as St. Damien, I think whoever did that was making a mistake in that he had a brother who was evidently married to someone named Maria. (I saw that today when I looked it up, but there is no ordinance information given for either brother.)

LDS members don’t walk through some kind of door that says “now whatever you do is perfect”, so there can certainly be errors and misjudgments and overzealousness, just like for anyone else in the world. So it takes a person on the other end of that to just say to themselves, “People make mistakes and I guess it’s better if I forgive rather than carry a grudge.” In the spirit world, it will mean absolutely nothing if someone on earth made a mistake in submitting a wrong name or wrong marriage. They might be expected to not even know it happened at all, since what counts for them is when they actually have an interest in having their work done through a choice they make. It could be compared to having someone issue them a “pass” that they can activate for it to be valid, or just leave it hanging out there as something that was offered that was never validated by them and was thus inconsequential for them.

 

[zaffiroborant]

As far as St. Damien, I think whoever did that was making a mistake in that he had a brother who was evidently married to someone named Maria. (I saw that today when I looked it up, but there is no ordinance information given for either brother.)

Quite frankly I don’t see how it could be a mistake. While people may not have an understanding of Catholicism one thing anyone who’s heard of Catholicism does know is that Catholic priests are not married. And I find it particularly unbelievable that LDS who focus so much on the necessity of marriage to get to heaven would be unaware of this Catholic discipline.

 

[campeador]

Hi, Campeador,

I was and am aware that some people think Jesus was married. I also am aware as that link noted, that there is not an official statement of Latter-day Saint belief that either affirms or says He was not married. So, the President of the Quorum of the Twelve could have a studied opinion, and others could, and they could have differing opinions, and the answer is “we don’t know”.

Nor do I agree that “most LDS” hold it as true–perhaps a majority, perhaps not–I don’t know, having not seen a survey nor heard it discussed often enough to think I have a sampling of the pros and cons as a valid statistical sample.

As you say. However I’m not sure if you’re sincere or just following the directives of your prophet.

 

[ParkerD]

As you say. However I’m not sure if you’re sincere or just following the directives of your prophet.

Campeador,

I was being sincere. I have never heard the matter discussed in any class, nor privately among friends. I have read speculation by a couple of people–that’s all, and it simply doesn’t seem important to spend time puzzling over it.

I think there are stronger reasons that He wasn’t given His young age, than that He was just to “set an example”. He was already setting a perfect example of how to treat people, how to be loving, how to honor His Father and His Father’s will, how to be compassionate and forgiving, how to nurture, how to be courageous in the midst of being ridiculed and mocked, and etc. in countless other aspects of His perfection. He needed no other experience to be perfect.

 

[campeador]

Campeador,

I was being sincere. I have never heard the matter discussed in any class, nor privately among friends. I have read speculation by a couple of people–that’s all, and it simply doesn’t seem important to spend time puzzling over it.

I think there are stronger reasons that He wasn’t given His young age, than that He was just to “set an example”. He was already setting a perfect example of how to treat people, how to be loving, how to honor His Father and His Father’s will, how to be compassionate and forgiving, how to nurture, how to be courageous in the midst of being ridiculed and mocked, and etc. in countless other aspects of His perfection. He needed no other experience to be perfect.

Are you saying that the LDS prophet Joseph Fielding Smith was wrong?

 

[rock17]

I once had a conversation about Jesus’ marrriage status with a group of mormons and one of them said He might of been married and the rest of them became annoyed with him saying that it was not cannonized doctrine and should not be brought up, another one said that He meaning Jesus could have even been a polygamous the others really became annoyed with this statement claiming that it is not cannonized doctrine.