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ParkerD
Guest
The spirits of the dead can communicate with the living if they have a special reason and if the living person is sensitive to being communicated with, usually in a dream. Sometimes it’s just to let the living person know they are OK, and not to worry about them. In this case, though, it was that they asked for their temple work to be done by making it known in a dream where they spoke their wishes, and said they had been faithful in the assignment they had when they were alive and sacrificed for their country. (It was kind of like, “hey, remember us…we were faithful in our stewardship given to us by God.”)
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ParkerD
Guest
Lax16,
It just shows a significant misunderstanding. The LDS members are to research for their kindred dead, including descendants of direct line ancestors for perhaps three generations of descendants.
The “revisionist view” statement has no bearing in reality, since as I previously noted there are life span dates and ordinance dates including where they were done (in what temple), so anyone who has access and who looks at the dates would have not the slightest question that the person, when living, was not LDS. They would in fact know for sure that they were not a Latter-day Saint, which would be why their temple baptismal work was done at the much later point in time than when they were alive.
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lax16
Guest
All of the Founding Fathers requested this…and to whom did they appear or speak?
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lax16
Guest
Parker - I do not understand…???
Mormons are not related to Jews so going back three generations would not change that…Baptizing Jews from the Holocaust records does not make an ancestral connection…so why do the Mormons baptize them?
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ParkerD
Guest
Lax16,
There are those who actually do have Jewish ancestry and who actually have joined the LDS church. I have no specific knowledge of any case of a submission of the kind you asked about, so I would merely be guessing, but it is possible that an LDS convert with Jewish ancestry could have an ancestor whose descendant (such as a grandchild or great-grand-child) who had some of the atrocities committed against that descendant.
The use of the Holocaust records per se would be against what the members are told and know they are not to do that. However, a descendant could have the kind of case I noted in the above paragraph. There are other sources than the Holocaust records.
I
Inishfree
Guest
I wonder this too. Since, there were no LDS churches or members in many countries where our ancestors came from.
On, a happy note and slightly off topic. I did a better ancestor search, than the LDS would have.
I have gone back at least five generations. Names, places and dates of birth, religion, occupation and etc. I even found two ancestors, Ireland 1776. Catholic parish in Co. Cork.
None of my ancestors were LDS. Catholic and Methodist, for certain.
On, a happy note and slightly off topic. I did a better ancestor search, than the LDS would have.
I have gone back at least five generations. Names, places and dates of birth, religion, occupation and etc. I even found two ancestors, Ireland 1776. Catholic parish in Co. Cork.None of my ancestors were LDS. Catholic and Methodist, for certain.
P
ParkerD
Guest
To Wilford Woodruff, who was serving as president of the St. George LDS temple at the time, so he was open to the communication from spirits because that is the nature of temple work for the deceased–it is a link between the two worlds, and the spirits are very much alive and very much interested in what is going on on this earth.
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Inishfree
Guest
Parker,
Thank you for the explanation. I’m sure many of us appreicate your time to answer questions. I respect your faith, though mine is different. I feel this way about all religions.
Well, not satanic ones. But, you know what I mean.
Thank you for the explanation. I’m sure many of us appreicate your time to answer questions. I respect your faith, though mine is different. I feel this way about all religions.
Well, not satanic ones. But, you know what I mean.
L
lax16
Guest
Mormons Hijack Dead or Alive Jewish Souls
By Bernard I. Kouchel
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (often referred to as the LDS or Mormons) has spent millions of dollars microfilming, indexing and cataloging nearly every document known to man from every country on earth – including millions of Jewish records. Church members are encouraged to find the names of ancestors to baptize by proxy, which they believe gives the dead the opportunity to embrace the faith in the afterlife. They say that those who are dead retain their identity and free will and therefore can either accept or reject the rites performed for them. A hands-on proxy baptism ceremony, called an ordinance, takes place in a Mormon temple, and includes full immersion to wash away sins and commence church membership. It is supposedly performed, commentators say, for people who had believed in Christ, but had not had a chance to be baptized. To be baptized is to publicly acknowledge one’s faith in Christ as Savior and Lord. Originally, the practice was reserved for ancestors of church members, but over the years many other people have been baptized posthumously.
From the founding of their religion in 1830, Mormons have respected Judaism as a religion. Thus in 1994, Jews were outraged when it became known that members of LDS were posthumously baptizing Holocaust victims and other Jewish dead. Many followers of Judaism find the practice highly offensive, something akin to the forced baptism of Jews practiced for centuries in Europe during the Middle Ages. Some see the practice as an implicit bias, an act of intolerance.
The wrongful baptism of Jewish dead, which disparages the memory of a deceased person is a brazen act which will obscure the historical record for future generations. It has been bitterly opposed by many Jews for a number of years. Others say they will never stop being Jews, simply because there is a paper saying they had been baptized, that the act of posthumous baptism is unimportant and should be ignored. We think this to be a narrow, parochial, and shallow view. We will continue opposing this wrongful act which assimilates our dead to the point where it will not be possible to know who was Jewish in their lifetimes.
This author was among the first genealogists to discover the names of thousands of Jewish Holocaust victims in the International Genealogical Index (the “IGI”) 1, the official Mormon index of proxy baptisms for the dead, and quickly exposed this misguided practice.
Names are placed in the IGI by individual Mormon researchers or through Church name extraction programs. The names were extracted 2 mainly from two Holocaust memorial books. Gedenkbuch was extracted by individuals; the Memorbuch was part of the Church’s ‘Extraction Program’, an ongoing program that acquired records and distributed them to trained Church member volunteers who then extracted the names and submitted them for posthumous baptism.3
A protest drive initiated by Jewish genealogists escalated it to a nationally publicized issue that was followed by public outcry. American Jewish leaders considered it an insult and a major setback for interfaith relations. They initiated discussions with the Mormon Church that culminated in a voluntary 1995 agreement by the Church to remove the inappropriate names. Activists continue to monitor Mormon baptismal lists, seeking removal of inappropriate entries.
Has the church done anything to uphold its decade-old agreement with the Jewish community? The bad news is that the Mormons continue to hijack Jewish genocide victims and other Jewish dead. Moreover, when a Jew is baptized, the door is open for all of his deceased ancestors to be baptized as well. Regrettably, their baptismal records place before the public a revisionist view that these deceased Jews were Mormons, a position they would have rejected in life.
We want to say this to all well-meaning Christians: We don’t want to be saved, redeemed, forgiven, reincarnated, resurrected, or enraptured. We just want to be left alone. After 2000 years – is it so much to ask? We find the idea of Jews being posthumously baptized into the Mormon church to be deeply offensive in the extreme and cannot express our disgust, outrage and revulsion at this practice in strong enough terms. If everyone has free will, or “free agency” as Mormons say it, why bother with baptizing the dead who chose not to accept Christ? It takes the spiritual hounding of Jews to new lows; not even the grave is a refuge from over-zealous missionaries!
How can Jews be committed to enumerating descendants when the Mormons distort our family ties and our historic links to Judaism? You may wish to include these disclaimers in your genealogy records –
I note for posterity that if future researchers find records of baptized relatives in Mormon databases, know that these wrongful baptisms were inflicted on those relatives posthumously - - those entries do not reflect changes in religious choice or practice of our deceased ancestors.
If having been subjected to the involuntary Rite of Baptism, I hereby publicly revoke any implications of that Rite
J
Jim_Dandy
Guest
Parker D: “I learned about then Father Damien just a bit before my mission, and I was sure that Gid would not let his being Catholic keep him out of the Celestial Kingdom.”
I so deeply admire Saint Damien that I legally changed my name to Damien in his honor in 1989. I find this highly offensive. Mormons have desecrated his honor by “baptizing” him Mormon and “marrying him” against his will. “Oh, well,” they say. “He doesn’t have to accept it.”
No one can escape the clutches of the Mormons, not even in death.
Jim Dandy
I so deeply admire Saint Damien that I legally changed my name to Damien in his honor in 1989. I find this highly offensive. Mormons have desecrated his honor by “baptizing” him Mormon and “marrying him” against his will. “Oh, well,” they say. “He doesn’t have to accept it.”
No one can escape the clutches of the Mormons, not even in death.
Jim Dandy
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rock17
Guest
PakerD there is no need to find every person wrongfully married and baptised and right the wrong just to give out a statement stating to the different groups affected about how many where affected and that it was wrong.
People find this practice offencive!
People find this practice offencive!
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Inishfree
Guest
Fantastic post, lax and thanks for sharing it.
Though, I don’t blame Parker on a personal level. I do have a problem with the LDS practices. Suppose, a future desendent of mine. Wants to know of their heritage and everything that was true has been wiped away? The reason. I am leaving a “paper trail.”
I certainly, can understand how the Jewish people feel about this. I don’t blame them at all. There is no need of “baptism” of any sort. Since, christians believe Jews were God’s chosen people. Jesus was Jewish.
Though, I don’t blame Parker on a personal level. I do have a problem with the LDS practices. Suppose, a future desendent of mine. Wants to know of their heritage and everything that was true has been wiped away? The reason. I am leaving a “paper trail.”
I certainly, can understand how the Jewish people feel about this. I don’t blame them at all. There is no need of “baptism” of any sort. Since, christians believe Jews were God’s chosen people. Jesus was Jewish.
Z
zaffiroborant
Guest
I don’t think people should have to figure out from “date of death” and “date of baptism” if it was done after they died. All proxy baptisms for the dead should be clearly categorized or labeled “baptized without consent”.
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lax16
Guest
Russians fume as Mormons ‘buy souls’
Share Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
The Observer, Sunday 23 November 2003 01.30 GMT
The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at what it claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead Russians in order to baptise ‘dead souls’ in their faith.
In one archive, in the town of Nizhni Novgorod, east of Moscow, the Church of the Latter Day Saints has paid ten US cents for each page of thousands of names of dead people dating mainly from the late eighteenth century to be put on a microfilm.
The idea, the last-ditch attempt of a cash-strapped archive to fund urgent preservation work, has caused fury among the predominantly Orthodox nation. The Mormon Church is angry at what it sees as an obstruction to its religious practices.
Father Igor Pchelintsov, spokesman for the local Orthodox Church, said: ‘The teaching of the Mormons about the conversion of the dead contradicts reason and naturally causes concern among the faithful and creates a tense situation.’
The work in the archive has been temporarily called off while a local government commission studies it.
Nikolai Cheromin, a local official, said: ‘Their work is not prohibited. It is suspended and a group comprising officials and prosecutors from the four traditional Russian religions - Christian Orthodox, Jews, Buddhists and Muslims - are studying it.’ He said the Mormons had been present in the town for 100 years, albeit clandestinely during the Soviet era.
Viktor Kharlanmov, head of the Nizhni Novgorod regional archive, said the project was the result of an agreement between the Mormon-linked Genealogical Society of the state of Utah and the Russian Society of Historians and Archivists in Moscow. He said it was ‘vital to save an important part of our archives’. Seventy per cent of the Mormon cash goes to the Moscow society, while 30 went to the local archives.
Orthodox experts and officials have expressed their severe concern over the offence the project might cause locals. Professor Alexei Dvorkin, head of the Sectology Department of the Moscow St Tikhon Institute, said: 'The Mormon practice of proxy baptism or ‘baptising the dead’ is a well known ritual described in a lot of books. At the beginning of this practice they were looking for their ancestors with the aim of baptising them, but later they began to baptise everyone - Catholics, Muslims, Jewish, or Orthodox.
‘Any Christian will tell you that these rituals do not harm the soul of the dead. But it hurts the feelings of the believers who see these rituals with the names of the deceased as equal to the desecration of graves by Satanists.’
But Yevgeny Smirnov, from the Nizhni Novgorod Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and adviser to the Moscow Mormon region, said: ‘Our church aims to create a database permitting people to look for their ancestors. Our ceremony is not rebaptism; it only gives the soul of the deceased person the freedom of choice to accept our belief or to reject it.’
Share Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
The Observer, Sunday 23 November 2003 01.30 GMT
The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at what it claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead Russians in order to baptise ‘dead souls’ in their faith.
In one archive, in the town of Nizhni Novgorod, east of Moscow, the Church of the Latter Day Saints has paid ten US cents for each page of thousands of names of dead people dating mainly from the late eighteenth century to be put on a microfilm.
The idea, the last-ditch attempt of a cash-strapped archive to fund urgent preservation work, has caused fury among the predominantly Orthodox nation. The Mormon Church is angry at what it sees as an obstruction to its religious practices.
Father Igor Pchelintsov, spokesman for the local Orthodox Church, said: ‘The teaching of the Mormons about the conversion of the dead contradicts reason and naturally causes concern among the faithful and creates a tense situation.’
The work in the archive has been temporarily called off while a local government commission studies it.
Nikolai Cheromin, a local official, said: ‘Their work is not prohibited. It is suspended and a group comprising officials and prosecutors from the four traditional Russian religions - Christian Orthodox, Jews, Buddhists and Muslims - are studying it.’ He said the Mormons had been present in the town for 100 years, albeit clandestinely during the Soviet era.
Viktor Kharlanmov, head of the Nizhni Novgorod regional archive, said the project was the result of an agreement between the Mormon-linked Genealogical Society of the state of Utah and the Russian Society of Historians and Archivists in Moscow. He said it was ‘vital to save an important part of our archives’. Seventy per cent of the Mormon cash goes to the Moscow society, while 30 went to the local archives.
Orthodox experts and officials have expressed their severe concern over the offence the project might cause locals. Professor Alexei Dvorkin, head of the Sectology Department of the Moscow St Tikhon Institute, said: 'The Mormon practice of proxy baptism or ‘baptising the dead’ is a well known ritual described in a lot of books. At the beginning of this practice they were looking for their ancestors with the aim of baptising them, but later they began to baptise everyone - Catholics, Muslims, Jewish, or Orthodox.
‘Any Christian will tell you that these rituals do not harm the soul of the dead. But it hurts the feelings of the believers who see these rituals with the names of the deceased as equal to the desecration of graves by Satanists.’
But Yevgeny Smirnov, from the Nizhni Novgorod Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and adviser to the Moscow Mormon region, said: ‘Our church aims to create a database permitting people to look for their ancestors. Our ceremony is not rebaptism; it only gives the soul of the deceased person the freedom of choice to accept our belief or to reject it.’
L
lax16
Guest
April 22, 2003
Press Release, Armenian News Network (excerpts)
Armenian Church Condemns Actions of Mormons
The recent report of the Mormon sect’s `baptizing’ notable Armenians is ludicrous, laughable and truly scandalous behavior. They have no right nor authority to ‘baptize’ any deceased Armenian Christian. It is an offensive affront to the people of the Armenian Nation dispersed throughout the world, who have repeatedly suffered martyrdom in the defense of Christianity. Regardless of who the individual is, whether saint or sinner, no one has the right to baptize someone who is deceased. Only Our Lord in Heaven has power over the lives of the deceased.
The Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin, on behalf of the worldwide Armenian Church, condemns this practice in the strongest possible terms. In a statement from the Department of Inter-Church Relations of the Armenian Church, it is noted: `We call on the Mormon authorities to immediately cease this damaging and outrageous behavior. These actions are a violation against common decency.
Press Release, Armenian News Network (excerpts)
Armenian Church Condemns Actions of Mormons
The recent report of the Mormon sect’s `baptizing’ notable Armenians is ludicrous, laughable and truly scandalous behavior. They have no right nor authority to ‘baptize’ any deceased Armenian Christian. It is an offensive affront to the people of the Armenian Nation dispersed throughout the world, who have repeatedly suffered martyrdom in the defense of Christianity. Regardless of who the individual is, whether saint or sinner, no one has the right to baptize someone who is deceased. Only Our Lord in Heaven has power over the lives of the deceased.
The Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin, on behalf of the worldwide Armenian Church, condemns this practice in the strongest possible terms. In a statement from the Department of Inter-Church Relations of the Armenian Church, it is noted: `We call on the Mormon authorities to immediately cease this damaging and outrageous behavior. These actions are a violation against common decency.
L
lax16
Guest
Catholic-Mormon tension over LDS baptism of the dead
May 8, 2008 05:06 EDT
Reuters
The issue of Mormon proxy baptisms has resurfaced with the news that the Vatican has written to Catholic dioceses around the world telling them not to provide parish records to the Genealogical Society of Utah. As the Catholic News Service reported last week, the letter calls proxy baptism using these records “detrimental” and says the Vatican did not want Catholic parishes “to cooperate with the erroneous practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. Mormons use genealogical data to find names of people to baptise posthumously, a practice the Roman Catholic Church rejects on theological grounds.
The LDS Church has not yet replied, but the comments section of the Church-owned Deseret News has erupted with hundreds of entries. Many are from Mormons who cannot understand why anyone would object to their baptism of the dead. Several criticise the Vatican for withholding the data, arguing it actually belongs to the general public. Other blogs have also been commenting for (mostly Mormon — see here, here, here, here, here) and against (mostly Catholic — see here, here, here, here, here). There are also critical comments from Mormons and ex-Mormons (see here, here, here).
Most of this commentary misses the point. There is no way either side is going to agree on proxy baptisms; different religions exist precisely because they disagree on fundamental issues. It is also futile to argue about religious freedom, because obviously both Churches have the right to practise their faith. The idea that one religion’s teachings give it a right to another religion’s data is also a non-starter.
The real issue is not theology, but privacy. The Vatican does not recognise Mormon baptisms anyway, so it has long ignored the proxy baptism issue. However thanks to the Internet, large numbers of names of saints, popes and average Catholics have been published in recent years on Mormon baptism lists that are available for all to see. Pontiffs have even been “sealed” in eternal Mormon marriage to fictitious wives despite the celibacy rule for Catholic clergy. Is publishing names for posthumous baptism on the Internet (in its International Genealogical Index – IGI) an invasion of privacy, especially when done without the permission of the living families of the people concerned?
This is not just an issue for Catholics, Jews asked similar questions in the 1990s, after finding Holocaust victims on the IGI. After strong Jewish protests, the Church agreed in 1995 to stop proxy baptising them, a step that seemed to indicate some recognition of a problem. However, names of Jews have continued to appear over the years, including that of Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal in 2006. According to Helen Radkey, a researcher who specialises on the IGI, “In 2008, the Church is still posthumously baptising Jewish Holocaust victims, against the terms of the agreement it signed with Jewish groups on May 3, 1995.”
(NB: The Vatican has had its own issues with offending Jews and Muslims and was roundly criticised for them.)
We have tried asking about the privacy issue in the past but got no answer. The spokespeople at the LDS Church in Salt Lake City were invariably polite, helpfully provided detailed information about Mormon beliefs and said Mormons were “deeply saddened” to learn that some non-Mormons were offended by seeing co-religionists or deceased family members on the IGI. However, they did not address the key question about publishing this. When asked why they did not at least monitor the list, which includes many noted and notorious names, they said too many Mormons submitted too many names every year for proxy baptism for the Church to vet them all. Mormons were supposed to ask living family members before baptising anyone born in the past 95 years, but the records show this is often ignored.
The question here is not about the rights or wrongs of proxy baptism. That is an internal Mormon issue and, since they are performed secretly in temples that non-Mormons cannot enter, it can stay an internal Mormon issue. When the names of those proposed for baptism are published on the Internet for all to see (even if lists with all details of the baptisms are kept in genealogy centres only open to Mormons), is this still an internal affair or does it enter the public sphere?And if it does, what should the LDS Church do to respond to other faiths offended by this? The usual answers — that this is an important Morman practice, a gift to the dead, one that they can decline — have not convinced Jews or Catholics.
While trying to come up with a counter-example to illustrate this problem, I came across a post by Sharon Lindbloom on the Mormon Coffee blog (whose name alone shows it is not orthodox Mormon). She asked what the LDS Church would think if “a powerful and influential group” created a public database of prominent Mormons and “attached to each name is a letter of resignation from LDS Church membership, sent by proxy to Church headquarters in Salt Lake City.” She concluded: “I suspect Latter-day Saints would be very upset over Mormon pioneer proxy resignations from the LDS Church. They may even believe it to be an injustice to the memories of their loved-ones…"
May 8, 2008 05:06 EDT
Reuters
The issue of Mormon proxy baptisms has resurfaced with the news that the Vatican has written to Catholic dioceses around the world telling them not to provide parish records to the Genealogical Society of Utah. As the Catholic News Service reported last week, the letter calls proxy baptism using these records “detrimental” and says the Vatican did not want Catholic parishes “to cooperate with the erroneous practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. Mormons use genealogical data to find names of people to baptise posthumously, a practice the Roman Catholic Church rejects on theological grounds.
The LDS Church has not yet replied, but the comments section of the Church-owned Deseret News has erupted with hundreds of entries. Many are from Mormons who cannot understand why anyone would object to their baptism of the dead. Several criticise the Vatican for withholding the data, arguing it actually belongs to the general public. Other blogs have also been commenting for (mostly Mormon — see here, here, here, here, here) and against (mostly Catholic — see here, here, here, here, here). There are also critical comments from Mormons and ex-Mormons (see here, here, here).
Most of this commentary misses the point. There is no way either side is going to agree on proxy baptisms; different religions exist precisely because they disagree on fundamental issues. It is also futile to argue about religious freedom, because obviously both Churches have the right to practise their faith. The idea that one religion’s teachings give it a right to another religion’s data is also a non-starter.
The real issue is not theology, but privacy. The Vatican does not recognise Mormon baptisms anyway, so it has long ignored the proxy baptism issue. However thanks to the Internet, large numbers of names of saints, popes and average Catholics have been published in recent years on Mormon baptism lists that are available for all to see. Pontiffs have even been “sealed” in eternal Mormon marriage to fictitious wives despite the celibacy rule for Catholic clergy. Is publishing names for posthumous baptism on the Internet (in its International Genealogical Index – IGI) an invasion of privacy, especially when done without the permission of the living families of the people concerned?
This is not just an issue for Catholics, Jews asked similar questions in the 1990s, after finding Holocaust victims on the IGI. After strong Jewish protests, the Church agreed in 1995 to stop proxy baptising them, a step that seemed to indicate some recognition of a problem. However, names of Jews have continued to appear over the years, including that of Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal in 2006. According to Helen Radkey, a researcher who specialises on the IGI, “In 2008, the Church is still posthumously baptising Jewish Holocaust victims, against the terms of the agreement it signed with Jewish groups on May 3, 1995.”
(NB: The Vatican has had its own issues with offending Jews and Muslims and was roundly criticised for them.)
We have tried asking about the privacy issue in the past but got no answer. The spokespeople at the LDS Church in Salt Lake City were invariably polite, helpfully provided detailed information about Mormon beliefs and said Mormons were “deeply saddened” to learn that some non-Mormons were offended by seeing co-religionists or deceased family members on the IGI. However, they did not address the key question about publishing this. When asked why they did not at least monitor the list, which includes many noted and notorious names, they said too many Mormons submitted too many names every year for proxy baptism for the Church to vet them all. Mormons were supposed to ask living family members before baptising anyone born in the past 95 years, but the records show this is often ignored.
The question here is not about the rights or wrongs of proxy baptism. That is an internal Mormon issue and, since they are performed secretly in temples that non-Mormons cannot enter, it can stay an internal Mormon issue. When the names of those proposed for baptism are published on the Internet for all to see (even if lists with all details of the baptisms are kept in genealogy centres only open to Mormons), is this still an internal affair or does it enter the public sphere?And if it does, what should the LDS Church do to respond to other faiths offended by this? The usual answers — that this is an important Morman practice, a gift to the dead, one that they can decline — have not convinced Jews or Catholics.
While trying to come up with a counter-example to illustrate this problem, I came across a post by Sharon Lindbloom on the Mormon Coffee blog (whose name alone shows it is not orthodox Mormon). She asked what the LDS Church would think if “a powerful and influential group” created a public database of prominent Mormons and “attached to each name is a letter of resignation from LDS Church membership, sent by proxy to Church headquarters in Salt Lake City.” She concluded: “I suspect Latter-day Saints would be very upset over Mormon pioneer proxy resignations from the LDS Church. They may even believe it to be an injustice to the memories of their loved-ones…"
L
lax16
Guest
Thanks and You’re welcome!
I don’t blame Mormons as individuals, however, why don’t they enlighten themselves on this issue? Read the articles (and there are many re: Jewish baptisms) and decide for themselves if it is right to continue baptising them or not.
To claim ignorance of this situation when the internet has many credible sources on this topic is not the correct way to handle it.
P
ParkerD
Guest
Lax16,
Most of the internet sources are not credible, and merely show a lack of understanding just like the issue of anyone thinking someone years from now will take the data and think the person was an LDS member while living. It shows not the slightest level of understanding about the data.
As far as the issue itself, if someone were on a ship and saw a whole group of people in the water, struggling to survive with all their might and perhaps not even seeing the ship, perhaps not even knowing that the ship was in the area and just needed to be looked for,
would the person in the ship be considered honorable and respectful if they just watched and let the people in the group in the water struggle to survive, and just let the ship move on toward its destination with not the slightest thought or consideration about the group of people being left behind–people they rightly love and rightly consider just as important as themselves?
L
lax16
Guest
The Founding Fathers’ Temple Work (edited for length; bold mine)
In 1877 the Founding Fathers appeared in vision to Elder Wilford Woodruff, president of the St. George Temple at the time and one of the Twelve Apostles, and desired their temple work to be done for them:
Before I left St. George, the spirits of the [Founding Fathers] gathered around me, wanting to know why we did not redeem them. Said they, “You have had the use of the Endowment House for a number of years, and yet nothing has ever been done for us. We laid the foundation of the government you now enjoy, and we never apostatized from it, but we remained true to it and were faithful to God.” These were the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and they waited on me for two days and two nights. . . . I straightway went into the baptismal font and called upon Brother McCallister to baptize me for the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and fifty other eminent men, making one hundred in all, including John Wesley, Columbus, and others.6
In the April 1898 General Conference, President Woodruff recalled this sacred experience:
Those men who laid the foundation of this American government and signed the Declaration of Independence were the best spirits the God of heaven could find on the face of the earth. They were choice spirits, not wicked men. General Washington and all the men that labored for the purpose were inspired of the Lord. . . .
Everyone of those men that signed the Declaration of Independence, with General Washington, called upon me, as an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the Temple at St. George, two consecutive nights, and demanded at my hands that I should go forth and attend to the ordinances of the House of God for them.7
President Benson also added his witness:
Shortly after Spencer W. Kimball became president of the Church, we met together in one of out weekly meetings. We spoke of the sacred records that are in the vaults of the various temples of the Church. As I was soon to fill a conference assignment to St. George, President Kimball asked if I would go into the vault at the temple and check the early records. In so doing, I realized the fulfillment of a dream I had had ever since learning of the visit of the Founding Fathers to this sacred place. I saw with my own eyes the records of the work that was done for the Founding Fathers of this great nation, beginning with George Washington. **I was deeply moved on that occasion to realize that these great men returned to this promised land by permission of the Lord and had their ordinance work done for them. If they had not been faithful men, if they had not been God-fearing men, would they have come to the elders of Israel to seek their temple blessings? **I think not. The Lord raised them up, sanctioned their work, and proclaimed them “wise men.” Moreover, a president of the Church declared them to be the “best spirits the God of heaven could find on the face of the earth,” and testified that they were “choice spirits” and “inspired of the Lord.”8
What are choice spirits? Is this why you baptize Catholic saints and the Jews, God’s chosen people?
So you actually believe that when we die, instead of meeting God and Jesus and speaking to them about our destiny, we need to come back to earth and plead to a Mormon for our eternal salvation?
- Status