Question for LDS "Do you Marry the dead?"

[KathleenGee]

Soren,

Good explanation and background on living water baptisms vs immersion baptisms…We really appreciate your outstanding education…

 

[Inishfree]

Excellent post, soren! Thanks for sharing.

 

[soren1]

Excellent post, soren! Thanks for sharing.

Thank you. Here is a point to add: baptism by pouring does not simply eliminate the symbolism of death and rebirth. St. Thomas discusses it in the Summa, III, q. 66, a. 7, where he poses this objection:
*Further, the Apostle says (Romans 6:3-4): “All we who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in His death: for we are buried together with Him, by Baptism into death.” But this is done by immersion: for Chrysostom says on John 3:5: “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost,” etc.: “When we dip our heads under the water as in a kind of tomb, our old man is buried, and being submerged, is hidden below, and thence he rises again renewed.” Therefore it seems that immersion is essential to Baptism. *
In response, St. Thomas writes:
*Christ’s burial is more clearly represented by immersion: wherefore this manner of baptizing is more frequently in use and more commendable. Yet in the other ways of baptizing it is represented after a fashion, albeit not so clearly; for no matter how the washing is done, the body of a man, or some part thereof, is put under water, just as Christ’s body was put under the earth. *

 

[Inishfree]

I know this is way off topic.

I want to thank the free Mormon genealogy website. Not ancestry.com which I have read is also owned by the LDS?

I was able to get some info. On my Irish Catholic great-great grand father. I now know the date of his death and which cemetery he is buried.

Just saved me a boat load of cash!

Oh and since he was a laborer by occupation. I don’t have to worry about him being, well you know. He was already married to the woman. He chose to love, here on earth.

God bless you Peter K*****. Because of your struggles and hard work. I never went hungry.

1840, the begining of the Irish famine.

 

[rmcmullan]

Oh and since he was a laborer by occupation. I don’t have to worry about him being, well you know. He was already married to the woman. He chose to love, here on earth.

God bless you Peter K*****. Because of your struggles and hard work. I never went hungry.

The title of this thread is unecessarily provocative and misleading. Marriages are sealed in temples. The dead are not married but their marriages are sealed. And children are sealed to their parents. If you don’t believe families and marriages endure past this life, that’s up to you. But Mormons do and they teach this as well.

 

[catholic-rcia]

The title of this thread is unecessarily provocative and misleading. Marriages are sealed in temples. The dead are not married but their marriages are sealed. And children are sealed to their parents. If you don’t believe families and marriages endure past this life, that’s up to you. But Mormons do and they teach this as well.

Christians also teach this, Christ teaches this even today. But in a much different way, a heavenly way. Your faith worships the family, we as Catholics worship God. It is in Him that our family is found, the body of Christ is found. (The Most Holy Trinity)

I believe the family of our one sole Creator continues beyond this life. But I do not believe Gods love is measured as we measure love here on earth. Here we learn to share God with each other, His love as we have none of our own accord. We do not posses love, we share His love.

It is only through Christ our lord and God that we can truly love each other with no strings attached. I have three children gifted to me, leant to me from God. In heaven will I love them more than others? Will I love my wife more than others? Will she be more special to me than others? As a Catholic I can confidently say no. I will love the family of God, all the Saints and angels, all of those I have known on earth equally through Christ Jesus. Our marriage will all be to Christ Jesus where just as the water and blood that sustains us flowed from his side when He was pierced, the fountain of life, likewise will be love.

As Catholics marriage is not a small matter, something that goes away after death. Rather we enter into the larger picture, a larger kind of marriage, the marriage we are all meant to be immersed into. The Most Holy Trinity, to become One with our Creator. True love for all of eternity.

If you love your children could you imagine loving all children the same? We cannot handle that kind of love. It’s too big!

Which ones would you choose to be in your immediate family? How about all of them including yourself. Marriage on earth prepares us for the bigger one. Only God will be at the center of our very being, it will be all about Him and together we will praise Him forever.

The excitement of being engrafted upon Him will never wear out. Will I be in this place with my wife? Of course I will and my love for her will be like no other kind of love. But not just for her, but for all together within the One Body Of Christ. All married to Him, not in an earthy way, rather a heavenly way. What the world offers may look good, very tempting. But we are not of this world. We were made for the next.

 

[rmcmullan]

To Catholica-Rica:

What, Mormons worship the family? I assume you’re exagerrating here, hopefully you don’t mean that literally.

It sounds to me as though you are saying that our wives and children in the afterlife enjoy no special relationship with us any more which sounds very similar to saying the family and our marriages are dissolved or at least insignificant. Hopefully you don’t also believe that about baptism. Or the other works we might have worked in this life, be they for good or evil.

Perhaps what you are saying is that the intense love we feel for our wife and children will be just as deep for everyone. Remember that scene from Fiddler on the Roof where the man sings and ask his wife if he loves her? At first, before she answers with her heart, she answers by going through all the details of their life together, the children they are raising and so on. I have to wonder if these things would even matter if that is what you’re saying. Sure, she answer from her heart, but only after she realises that they really are a force for good, together.

?

 

[KathleenGee]

Catholics innately believe…that we are reunited with all our loved ones with the Lord in the next life, as well as countless others.

Not only will we be able to return and enjoy our loved ones in Christ, we will have eternity to know the Lord better, and to make new relationships with the countless others, all centering our praise and glory to the Lord, and enjoying a new heaven and a new earth, and new discoveries----together in harmony and love.

 

[rmcmullan]

To Kathleen Gee:

Well yeah, but most Christians believe that. But can the promises that a husband and wife make to each other extend to the afterlife? To believe that you have to know somewhat about the nature of the afterlife and there’s not been much said about that, either to Catholics or to Mormons, despite the abundance of the Mormon’s modern revelation. So they take it on faith. But if a family is an advantage in the afterlife, how it is, we don’t know

I’m indulging in a gross speculation here and do not quote it as any sort of Mormon doctrine but I always imagined that the afterlife is similar to raising a family. We’re creators and we try to develop our “children”. Much like the relationship parents/children or God and his believers have. Catholics don’t have that “eternal progression” concept in their bag of theological tools. I don’t think they’re against it, it’s just not developed.

 

[KathleenGee]

What promises can be made for heaven???

I would let God be God …because I think that really, in some ways, even priests admit…that heaven may be boring by just praising all the time…

But St. Paul was taken up for a moment, and he says we have no idea what awaits us…

So I would rather keep God’s surprises in His hand. I think when He defines paradise, as Christ did to the Good Thief next to Him on the cross, I can conjecture up various images…and the Lord says He comes to us in two’s and three’s…

Our relationships will only grow, those that are based in Christ.

My beginning came through my parents and God. They freely chose each other and they had me. I wanted to bring as many children into the world to love Christ and serve Him in others, but some how I ended up seeing myself only having four. I even could sense the gender of each of my children within a few weeks after I knew I was with child. I prayed for my unborn; I miscarried and baptized that one in the womb.

Catholic couples are highly recommended to go to pre-nuptial counselling, but many do not do it.

I also added a comment on ‘Mormons do it better’…a reference for Mormons to study devout Catholic life and see how we live our faith out as family…the family life of St. Therese of Liseaux, the Little Flower.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I think the differences can be easily summed up by the understanding of one teaching.

---

The New and Everlasting Covenant

Catholics (and all Christians) understand this Covenant to be Jesus Christ Himself (as taught in the NT by Jesus Christ Himself). More specific to Catholics, we experience this Covenant in many ways, but especially at the center of our Faith. In the Sacrament of the Eucharist. The Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. The Eucharist, and all the sacraments of the Church, prefigure heaven, just as the sacrificial lamb prefigured the Messiah.

Mormons understand this Covenant to be their marriages. So it appears to a Catholic that the center of Mormonism is marriage, made clear to us by their central sacrament (ordinance). Which is why we view this as worship…the center has been replaced by a relationship to each other, and not with Christ.

---

 

[KathleenGee]

This is why we see the goal of Mormonism is self becoming a god…

Our progression is in Jesus Christ…and the effect of a Christ-filled soul has great influence in the world to bring others to Christ…

Sr. Faustina reflected on her own convent…she said that there are more souls helped in this world through the sick and useless in the convents, than the healthy ones…

Our celibate religious who chose the contemplative life…live solely for Jesus and pray for all the people in the world so that they can be with the Lord in heaven.

 

[Inishfree]

The title of this thread is unecessarily provocative and misleading. Marriages are sealed in temples. The dead are not married but their marriages are sealed. And children are sealed to their parents. If you don’t believe families and marriages endure past this life, that’s up to you. But Mormons do and they teach this as well.

What about un-married Mormons? Aren’t they married by proxy, after they are deceased?

The LDS “married” a Catholic Saint. Who had no wife or children.

 

[rmcmullan]

To Irishfree:

No, unmarried Mormons do not get assigned spouses by others, either before or after their life here. If you have found an instance of that happening all I can say is that sometimes people make mistakes in their geneaology. There isn’t a standard of proof that I know about, especially for living generations. Different cultures have different record keeping too, some of it is only an oral tradition. That’s why most genealogers are very happy when they can find old church or government records of an ancestor, they’re usually authoratative although not without mistakes.

As for the doctrinal side of it, if you read through D&C 132, you’ll see the entire concept is based on “binding” or “sealing” events in this life as eternal. So it has to have happened in this life in order to be continued:

D&C 132:7 … All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise…are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

 

[rmcmullan]

RebeccaJ

You know better than to say something as outlandish as Mormons interpret the new and everlasting covenant to be their marriages. I don’t know why you say such things, surely you don’t believe it? Look at D&C 132:6.

As for your other point, I’m pretty sure that we should be trying to be like Jesus. That’s what the Primary kids are always singing about. We should try to be like God and you’re making that into a bad thing? I thought that was the whole point of Christianity?

KathleenGee says

Our progression is in Jesus Christ…and the effect of a Christ-filled soul has great influence in the world to bring others to Christ…

And I’m going to have to go with that. Maybe we’re just twisted up in words here but I though both Catholics and Mormons were trying to make themselves like Jesus?

 

[RebeccaJ]

RebeccaJ

You know better than to say something as outlandish as Mormons interpret the new and everlasting covenant to be their marriages. I don’t know why you say such things, surely you don’t believe it? Look at D&C 132:6.

Yes, D&C 132 spells out the Mormon doctrine of plural marriage.

As for your other point, I’m pretty sure that we should be trying to be like Jesus. That’s what the Primary kids are always singing about. We should try to be like God and you’re making that into a bad thing? I thought that was the whole point of Christianity?

Yes, and you include marriage as “being like Jesus”.

 

[catholic-rcia]

**To Catholica-Rica:

“What, Mormons worship the family? I assume you’re exagerrating here, hopefully you don’t mean that literally”**

*I mean it literally, *

*I can hear the tempter clearly from where you stand. He says: “Your Church says you will no longer be married in heaven? What about your children? Do you not love them? Don’t you want to be with them in heaven? Sealed to them forever, what kind of god or church would teach this?” *

*What is being offered here to your members as far as marriege is the world as we know it. Keep in mind that my own family is my life here on earth and I thank God every day for lending them to me. Together we go to Mass to give praise to God. My family is not my heavenly goal. God is my goal, to be with Him forever. In that I will find my family. Through my Baptism I have already been sealed to Him and through Him to my family. The Holy Family. *

**“It sounds to me as though you are saying that our wives and children in the afterlife enjoy no special relationship with us any more which sounds very similar to saying the family and our marriages are dissolved or at least insignificant.” **

Re-read what you just wrote. How could you hear my words written this way? This would be a very evil way to think. To the contrary my relationship with all in Heaven will be glorious, magnificent, brilliant, wonderful, marvelous and grand. The light of Christ comes to mind.

It may sound that way to you because of your biased ears, in all humility. How would Christians here what I have written? Our relationship with each other in heaven will be perfect, perfect love. This love that the Father and Son have shared throughout all of eternity. The most special relationship that their will ever be. We will be One Family in Christ Jesus. To say to a Catholic, that a Catholic believes that His or her Marriage are dissolved or at least insignificant after death does not understand Love in the Christian sense. Our lives will no longer be directed to self or to others. Our lives will be directed to God through Christ by the workings of the Holy Spirit. He will be our God and we will be His created children.

Created for Jesus in order for us to have life through and in Him, in order to give Him Glory and Praise forever. My relationship with my wife and children will be placed into perfect relationship with God. I will be able to love all others as God loves each one of us. Again love that is not measured as we measure love on earth. We as Chritsians are not saved in our families, we are saved in Community as we are the Body of Christ.

"Hopefully you don’t also believe that about baptism. Or the other works we might have worked in this life, be they for good or evil."

I was baptized into the death of Christ in order to be raised in Christ. It is Him in me that does good works, not me. I just get to share in these works, giving Him all the credit as a good slave to Him would do. This is freedom on earth. To know your place and to act on it for Him. Giving all credit where credit is due. His love is unchanging for me. As it is on earth so it will be in heaven for all who have surrendered their own lives over to His.

"Perhaps what you are saying is that the intense love we feel for our wife and children will be just as deep for everyone."

Yes of course, but again the kind of love I speak about is Gods love, the one and true love, its origin, as He is love itself.

I am at my best with my wife and children when I place my God above everything else including them. In Heaven we will see all as God see’s all. No one loved more than the other, and this love is the love between the Father and the Son. This love is the Holy Spirit. Unlike any love we will ever fully know here on earth as sinners in transition. We walk by faith.

As a Catholic I am very much in Love through Christ with my wife and children. I have complete faith in what God has in store for us after this life is over. We are one family in One God. We are the Body of Christ. He is the Groom, we are His bride. His Church on earth. We will no longer need marriege as we know it in Heaven. Our marriege will be complete in Him.

 

[KathleenGee]

With the witness Rich has given us here…I see Catholic marriage as exemplary…

 

[Inishfree]

To Irishfree:

No, unmarried Mormons do not get assigned spouses by others, either before or after their life here. If you have found an instance of that happening all I can say is that sometimes people make mistakes in their geneaology. There isn’t a standard of proof that I know about, especially for living generations. Different cultures have different record keeping too, some of it is only an oral tradition. That’s why most genealogers are very happy when they can find old church or government records of an ancestor, they’re usually authoratative although not without mistakes.

As for the doctrinal side of it, if you read through D&C 132, you’ll see the entire concept is based on “binding” or “sealing” events in this life as eternal. So it has to have happened in this life in order to be continued:

Thanks for your reply. But, what is D&C? I don’t mean this as being rude… I am still learning about your faith.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Thanks for your reply. But, what is D&C? I don’t mean this as being rude… I am still learning about your faith.

D&C is Doctrines and Covenants one of four of the LDS “scriptures” the others are the Bible, the BoM, and the Pearl of Great price. The introduction to D&C 132 that Rebecca referred to reads as follows:

Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21–25, The strait and narrow way leads to eternal lives; 26–27, The law is given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation are made to prophets and Saints in all ages; 40–47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48–50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51–57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.

It seems that in spite of Rmcmullan’s protestations that LDS.org does see “celestial marriage” as the new and everlasting covenant.