Question for LDS folks.

[lax16]

**So I take it the early mormon church was NOT pro-life? **

Ya think?

Brigham Young:
*I will tell you a dream I had last night. . . . I saw two ruffians, whom I knew to be mobbers [sic] and murderers, and they crept into a bed, where one of my wives and children were. I said, “You that call yourselves brethren, tell me, is this the fashion among you?” They said, “O, they are good men, they are gentlemen.” With that I took my large bowie knife, that I used to wear as a bosom pin in Nauvoo, and cut one of their throats from ear to ear, saying, “Go to hell across lots.” The other one said, “You dare not serve me so.” I instantly sprang at him, seized him by the hair of the head, and, bringing him down, cut his throat, and sent him after his comrade; then told them both, if they would behave themselves they should yet live, but if they did not, I would unjoint their necks. At this I awoke. I say, rather than that apostates should flourish here, I will unsheathe my bowie knife, and conquer or die. Journal of Discourses Volume 1 Page 83 (1853)

If you want to know what to do with a thief that you may find stealing, I say kill him on the spot, and never suffer him to commit another iniquity. Journal of Discourses Volume 1 Page 108 (1853)

I will take the Government of the United States, and the laws of Missouri and Illinois, from the year 1838 to 1845, and if they had been carried out according to their letter and spirit, they would have strung up the murderers and mobocrats who illegally and unrighteously killed, plundered, harassed, and expelled us. I will tell you how much I love those characters. If they had any respect to their own welfare, they would come forth and say, whether Joseph Smith was a Prophet or not, “We shed his blood, and now let us atone for it;” and they would be willing to have their heads chopped off, that their blood might run upon the ground, and the smoke of it rise before the Lord as an incense for their sins. I love them that much. But if the Lord wishes them to live and foam out their sins before all men and women, it is all right, I care not where they go, or what they do. Journal of Discourses Volume 2 Page 186 (1855)*

 

[KathleenGee]

Janderich,

In response to your post, 417, then how do you explain the LDS position that all creeds are abomination and that the true church faded away…implying just a few cults remaining???

How do you explain your religion’s constant opposition to Catholicism?..why doesn’t it take on Islam or Protestantism or atheism?

Your religion, no matter the white washing, is essentially anti-Catholic and wants to overcome it.

As Anna was saying earlier, it is our duty to bring forth the truth, especially in a religion that places itself in opposition to all creeds and faith, and in particular, makes up false stories to validate itself, aka Great Apostasy, in defiance of witness in documentation, and likewise promoting false ideas that have no verifiable documentation.

God created the universe, and He also had a gathering of spirit world around Him at the same time who were not creators…how did this come about…you speak how Catholicism has no logic in its understanding of God, but then it ignores academic scholarship of logic in the ‘Summa Theologicae’ by St. Thomas Aquinas using the Greek tradition of the greatest philosopher, Aristotle, Cause and Effect.

You cannot have a myriad of causes with different effects.

What you are wanting is justification for man becoming god like Christ was once a god who became man who became god again…round and round…and no documentation out there in earliest times professing such a belief.

I still say Mormonism needs to completely break from Judeo Christianity that believes in only One God. It is trying to hijack Christianity and the Catholic Church, and wants to replace it with its belief, which I find incredulous, without continuity, that are merely another form of paganism…polytheism and false gods.

Rather for us even the Holy Name of Jesus is sacred. Mormonism is using His name in vain by attributing to HIm what He is not, putting Him at some type of conflict with His own believers claiming our creed is false.

Mormonism is not directed really at any other creeds it deems as false or corrupt. It is only directed its accusations against the Catholic Church, Christ’s only church He instituted.

You can go around and around and around, you get pulled into Mormon think and circular thinking and denial. I try to spend more time praying than getting pulled into the spin, and then using CAF as a platform to show people here Mormon beliefs.

Mormonism has its history of beliefs, and former Mormons or others who have been in it for awhile know its teachings and bring them forward. It is their Christian duty to lead people to the truth.

The Catholic Church is Christ’s Church that brings us the full deposit of faith; Protestant churches bring much of the truth of Jesus Christ, depending on which denomination. All believe in the Holy Trinity.

 

[lax16]

Please notice the timeline for BY’s quotes range from** 1853-1869.**

Sixteen years is a long time for a prophet not to be speaking for God.

from the** LDS manual:**
Primary 5: Doctrine and Covenants: Church History

Brigham Young Leads the Church
Testimony

Bear your testimony that Brigham Young was chosen by the Lord to lead the Church after Joseph Smith’s death and that the living prophet has been chosen by the Lord to lead the Church today. Express your gratitude that the Savior has organized his church so that the right man is always chosen as the next prophet. Tell how thankful you are for the Twelve Apostles and their role as special witnesses of Jesus Christ. You may want to share an experience you have had listening to an Apostle, either in person or in a conference broadcast.

So, children are taught that Brigham Young was chosen by God to lead the LDS church, but they are not to pay attention to 16 years of sermons?

 

[RebeccaJ]

However, so-called “blood atonement,” by which individuals would be required to shed their own blood to pay for their sins, is not a doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We believe in and teach the infinite and all-encompassing atonement of Jesus Christ, which makes forgiveness of sin and salvation possible for all people. deseretnews.com/article/7…nt.html?pg=all

This leaves out D&C 42:18, which teaches that murder is an unforgivable sin.

President Joseph Fielding Smith emphasized that the
Ten Commandments are part of the laws of God and
that they are as binding today as they were in the
days of Moses (see Church History and Modern
Revelation, 1:185). The Lord repeats these
commandments in section 42 as a part of His law
and gives for each the penalty (see also D&C 64:12).
Murder (vv. 18–19). “John says there are two kinds
of sins [see 1 John 5:16–17]. One kind that can be
forgiven; the other kind a sin unto death, for which
there is no forgiveness. Murder is one of the latter
class. That is where one deliberately sheds innocent
blood. . . . There is a forgiveness for all those who truly
repent and forsake their sins and show their sincerity
by their continued repentance to the end of their
mortal lives. The mercy of the Almighty, through the
atonement of Jesus Christ, reaches out and embraces
every soul who will forsake his sins, except those who
have wilfully sinned, as John says, ‘unto death.’”
(Joseph Fielding Smith, The Restoration of All Things,
pp. 204–5.)

This is where Young’s blood atonement comes in. He taught that blood was required for blood. From a Christian POV, it shows a lack of understanding of the Atonement. Jesus’ blood was not enough for all sin???

I know more than a few Mormons who still believe that blood is required for blood. It influences their support for the death penalty of convicted murderers.

It is an idea that is supported in the Book of Mormon:

Alma 54
12 And behold, if ye do not this, I will come against you with my armies; yea, even I will arm my women and my children, and I will come against you, and I will follow you even into your own land, which is the land of aour first inheritance; yea, and it shall be blood for blood, yea, life for life; and I will give you battle even until you are destroyed from off the face of the earth.

 

[SteveVH]

I’m trying to imagine not being able to defend what our Pope says. He speaks to us in weekly audiences and in encyclicals. Never does he say anything contrary to doctrine. The idea that a man is a prophet and yet no one can distinguish when he is speaking the word of God or not is preposterous. But this is what happens when the foundation of one’s religion is based upon the imagination and cunning of a man rather than the Savior himself.

 

[TexanKnight]

Apparently, Brigham Young didn’t get the memo.

*“I am here to answer. I shall be on hand to answer when I am called upon, for all the counsel and for all the instruction that I have given to this people. If there is an Elder here, or any member of this Church, called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who can bring up the first idea, the first sentence that I have delivered to the people as counsel that is wrong, I really wish they would do it; but they cannot do it, for the simple reason that I have never given counsel that is wrong; this is the reason.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 16, p. 161). Brigham Young

“I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom…I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 95). Brigham Young*

Janderich ignores this when he tries to distance himself from BY

 

[TexanKnight]

This leaves out D&C 42:18, which teaches that murder is an unforgivable sin.

This is where Young’s blood atonement comes in. He taught that blood was required for blood. From a Christian POV, it shows a lack of understanding of the Atonement. Jesus’ blood was not enough for all sin???

I know more than a few Mormons who still believe that blood is required for blood. It influences their support for the death penalty of convicted murderers.

and remember, the promise to kill and be killed was, and might still be, part of the temple ceremony. I stopped going in 1989, so it has likely changed…most of LDS doctrine eventually does

 

[lax16]

This leaves out D&C 42:18, which teaches that murder is an unforgivable sin.

This is where Young’s blood atonement comes in. He taught that blood was required for blood. From a Christian POV, it shows a lack of understanding of the Atonement. Jesus’ blood was not enough for all sin???

I know more than a few Mormons who still believe that blood is required for blood. It influences their support for the death penalty of convicted murderers.

It is an idea that is supported in the Book of Mormon:

Alma 54
12 And behold, if ye do not this, I will come against you with my armies; yea, even I will arm my women and my children, and I will come against you, and I will follow you even into your own land, which is the land of aour first inheritance; yea, and it shall be blood for blood, yea, life for life; and I will give you battle even until you are destroyed from off the face of the earth.

Isn’t this why a man chose to be shot by a firing squad at the prison here in Utah - to shed his blood for his sins?

 

[TexanKnight]

Please notice the timeline for BY’s quotes range from** 1853-1869.**

Sixteen years is a long time for a prophet not to be speaking for God.

from the** LDS manual:**
Primary 5: Doctrine and Covenants: Church History

Brigham Young Leads the Church
Testimony

Bear your testimony that Brigham Young was chosen by the Lord to lead the Church after Joseph Smith’s death and that the living prophet has been chosen by the Lord to lead the Church today. Express your gratitude that the Savior has organized his church so that the right man is always chosen as the next prophet. Tell how thankful you are for the Twelve Apostles and their role as special witnesses of Jesus Christ. You may want to share an experience you have had listening to an Apostle, either in person or in a conference broadcast.

So, children are taught that Brigham Young was chosen by God to lead the LDS church, but they are not to pay attention to 16 years of sermons?

but he never gave a sermon that was not Scripture…

how horribly confusing…

 

[TexanKnight]

Geez…look at all the info we produce…

I LOVE my Catholic Family here!

 

[RebeccaJ]

Janderich ignores this when he tries to distance himself from BY

The real conundrum this puts LDS in, is, Young and his Mormon followers of the time did not view his teachings as opinion. They believed him, and acted in ways that showed their belief. “Earth must atone for the blood of that man” in the hymn “Praise to the Man”. Mountain Meadows Massacre, was a whole Mormon community acting on the premise that someone’s blood should atone for Smith’s blood.

Now, Mormons and their leaders say, “Eh, it was all just one man’s opinion.” Which, appears to me, to be just another opinion.

But LDS members don’t think on which opinion is correct, they just go with the latest opinion and call it good.

I go with, they are both false. Just one opinion overlaying another, based on societal norms and what people will find acceptable for the day.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Geez…look at all the info we produce…

I LOVE my Catholic Family here!

I think if I were LDS, it would be overwhelming. Who can come up with a decent explanation? I don’t expect that any LDS could.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Such discourses from Brigham Young are fairly well known. The term for this teaching from Brigham has come to be known as blood atonement. Anti-Mormons love to bring such quotes to the forefront and parade them around as core doctrine. They are not. The church issued a statement saying:

In the mid-19th century, when rhetorical, emotional oratory was common, some church members and leaders used strong language that included notions of people making restitution for their sins by giving up their own lives.

Janderich,

How does a Deseret News article trump the words of a Mormon prophet? It would be more helpful if you would quote from your doctrinal sources.

Prophets of the Restoration
Since Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ ushered in the Restoration of the gospel and re-established the Church, the voice of the President of the Church has been a witness of divine, eternal truth. Although the means by which the prophet’s voice is heard has changed through the years, that voice has always been a clarion call to come unto Christ. A video and an article now provide an opportunity to receive the words of every President from Joseph Smith to Thomas S. Monson.

How do you know which words of the prophets to receive, since the Presidents have been “witnesses of divine, eternal truth?”

 

[Anna_Scott]

I think if I were LDS, it would be overwhelming. Who can come up with a decent explanation? I don’t expect that any LDS could.

RebeccaJ,

I don’t think they really can.

I think many Mormons are unfamiliar with the Journal of Discourses. I noticed on lds.org; Mormons are encouraged to concentrate on other things; and if they do read the JD, they are told "to avoid getting caught up in their uniqueness."

**lds.org: I’ve been reading the Journal of **** Discourses ****with a great deal of interest and pleasure, but I notice that they are not printed by the Church. Can you tell me how authoritative I should consider them to be? Gerald E. Jones, director, LDS Institute of Religion, Berkeley, California

"Though the First Presidency endorsed the publication of the Journal, there was no endorsement as to the accuracy or reliability of the contents. There were occasions when the accuracy was questionable. The accounts were not always cleared by the speakers because of problems of time and distance. This was especially true during the persecution of the 1880s which finally forced the cessation of publication. . . .

We also should be aware of priorities in our studies. It seems to me that we should first become very familiar with the four books of Scripture accepted as standard works. The words of our current living prophet are also most valuable for us in our time. The official statements of the First Presidency are standards for doctrine and practice in the Church. We should be familiar with the manuals and courses of study provided for us in our day. . . .

. . . .If we find the time to read them, however, we should avoid getting caught up in their uniqueness and should concentrate on the inspiring thoughts and experiences related to us by choice men.**

---

Anna

 

[TexanKnight]

Isn’t this why a man chose to be shot by a firing squad at the prison here in Utah - to shed his blood for his sins?

Yes…Gary Gilmore.

Chose firing squad over hanging because he needed his blood spilled due to the Mormon Blood Oath

 

[lax16]

but he never gave a sermon that was not Scripture…

how horribly confusing…

:hypno:

 

[lax16]

. .

. . . .If we find the time to read them, however, we should avoid getting caught up in their uniqueness and should concentrate on the inspiring thoughts and experiences related to us by choice men.

---

Anna

In other words, put it on the shelf.

 

[lax16]

The real conundrum this puts LDS in, is, Young and his Mormon followers of the time did not view his teachings as opinion. They believed him, and acted in ways that showed their belief. “Earth must atone for the blood of that man” in the hymn “Praise to the Man”. Mountain Meadows Massacre, was a whole Mormon community acting on the premise that someone’s blood should atone for Smith’s blood.

Now, Mormons and their leaders say, “Eh, it was all just one man’s opinion.” Which, appears to me, to be just another opinion.

But LDS members don’t think on which opinion is correct, they just go with the latest opinion and call it good.

I go with, they are both false. Just one opinion overlaying another, based on societal norms and what people will find acceptable for the day.

Rebecca - Can you image having a priest/pastor/bishop/rabbi that went around saying outlandish things most of the time, but then, every once in a while, you were supposed to take him serious and put aside all of the negative things?

I highly doubt Mormons would put up with the hypocrisy today with any of their current leadership.

 

[lax16]

Geez…look at all the info we produce…

I LOVE my Catholic Family here!

I think it is really interesting to research Mormonism.

I love my CAF family too!

 

[Tmaque]

Tmaque,
You are very patient. I will probably disappoint you with my answer. First I’ll give my belief on the matter. Then I’ll explain why I’m not too concerned about my opinion on the matter. I believe that we arrived at this point of mortality by first being intelligence, then being spiritually born into the pre-existence, and again being physically born into mortality. I do believe I existed from the beginning with you and God the Father and everyone else. I don’t have a strong opinion one way or another regarding whether intelligence before spiritual birth is individuated or not. Here’s why. LDS doctrine teaches this about the pre-existence and mortality: (Abraham 3:26) “And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.” Our “first estate” in the pre-existence. Those who were faithful in the pre-existence were rewarded with a trip to mortality. Those who are faithful in mortality are rewarded with a trip to Heaven. Before we were born into the pre-existence when we existed as only an intelligence doesn’t seem to have much bearing on the final outcome. That’s probably not what you’re looking for.

And for the record I was raised on the West Coast and now reside on the East Coast. I attended BYU for four years and served an LDS mission for two years.

Do you believe God was once a man or do you believe God was always God? That’s what this BYU professor claims MOST LDS believe (that God was not once a man but has always been God).