Question for LDS folks.

[TexanKnight]

Excellent article Rebecca! I enjoyed reading it. This is a news article about the first of Hoffman’s forgeries. The Salamander letter was later and many other forgeries came later.
Mark Hoffman was an excellent con man and a murderer.

I’m sure you don’t think LDS people believe that our apostles and prophets are all knowing. Revelation comes through study and prayer one step at a time. Revelation and help from the Lord lead the LDS leaders through five years of Hoffman’s forgeries which were designed to destroy the LDS Church.

Ah…let me get this straight. LDS are asked to pray before having children, before meals, before voting to sustain a bishop, before going on a mission, before everything. But THE Alleged prophet and his alleged apostles did not pray before paying a forger thousands and thousands of LDS Church dollars for forgeries that even the LDS Church historians thought were authentic?

You owe me a monitor…I laughed so hard when I read your response that I spewed my water all over it.

 

[kimg901]

Mt. Oly, your church is destroying itself. Even if Hoffman never wrote those papers your church would still be in the same situation its in. People are smart and can read up on the lds in an instance and see what has been taught. If find your churches ways disgusting. It seems like if a racist person wants to be lds than the teachings about dark skin would be used and taught but when a dark skinned person confronts you, you say we never taught that. Why lie?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Excellent article Rebecca! I enjoyed reading it. This is a news article about the first of Hoffman’s forgeries. The Salamander letter was later and many other forgeries came later.
Mark Hoffman was an excellent con man and a murderer.

I’m sure you don’t think LDS people believe that our apostles and prophets are all knowing. Revelation comes through study and prayer one step at a time. Revelation and help from the Lord lead the LDS leaders through five years of Hoffman’s forgeries which were designed to destroy the LDS Church.

No I don’t think that is what you believe. My point is, if Oaks knew Hoffman was presenting a forgery, before any one else, why didn’t he warn anyone abut Hoffman?

 

[mtolympus]

Revelation comes through study? Really? Please explain this.

Thanks for the question. We believe we can receive revelation for our personal lives and within our stewardship for our church callings, whether one is a Sunday School Teacher or an Apostle. Revelation comes through prayer but we must study it out in our mind before we ask. Here is an LDS guide for receiving revelelation:

“But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.” (D&C 9:8)

 

[mtolympus]

No I don’t think that is what you believe. My point is, if Oaks knew Hoffman was presenting a forgery, before any one else, why didn’t he warn anyone abut Hoffman?

I didn’t say Oaks knew it before anyone else. I was only commenting on what Oaks said in his quotation. Also, Oaks was commenting on the Salamander letter which was much later that the interesting news article you posted. I believe all the leaders knew something wasn’t right. However, they all had their own personal Spiritual testimony of the Gospel as every member needs to have.

Paul taught that even though he had weaknesses his testimony came from the Spirit and that our faith should also:

“And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 2:1-5)

 

[RebeccaJ]

I didn’t say Oaks knew it before anyone else. I was only commenting on what Oaks said in his quotation. Also, Oaks was commenting on the Salamander letter which was much later that the interesting news article you posted. I believe all the leaders knew something wasn’t right. However, they all had their own personal Spiritual testimony of the Gospel as every member needs to have.

Paul taught that even though he had weaknesses his testimony came from the Spirit and that our faith should also:

“And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 2:1-5)

When did Oaks know?

I worked downtown SLC in the publishing world during the Hoffman times. I was at work when he blew himself up. The police ordered the office closed. They brought in bomb sniffing dogs to search the place.

Anyway, you’re making things up, is what I think. Oaks knew the Hoffman forgeries were forgeries when everyone else did, after the police investigated. The salamander letter was huge news, everyone was talking about it. Mormons believed it was authentic, no one was saying it wasn’t, including Oaks.

I don’t know why you would think you need to modify what happened. Hoffman fooled a lot of people. He was forging everything from Deseret notes to the salamander letter. He turned the LDS fine and rare book trade on its head. No one trusted that any document was authentic and who can know, to this day? What purpose does it server your “testimony” to make things up?

 

[mtolympus]

When did Oaks know?

I worked downtown SLC in the publishing world during the Hoffman times. I was at work when he blew himself up. The police ordered the office closed. They brought in bomb sniffing dogs to search the place.

Anyway, you’re making things up, is what I think. Oaks knew the Hoffman forgeries were forgeries when everyone else did, after the police investigated. The salamander letter was huge news, everyone was talking about it. Mormons believed it was authentic, no one was saying it wasn’t, including Oaks.

Of course it was huge news. However, my comments were directed exclusively to the following quote by Dalen H. Oaks which he made during the Salamander Letter scandal :

“Our individual, personal testimonies are based on the witness of the Spirit, not on any combination or accumulation of historical facts. If we are so grounded, no alteration of historical facts can shake our testimonies.” (“1985 CES Doctrine and Covenants Symposium,” Brigham Young University, Aug. 16, 1985, page 26)

Hoffman blew himself up on October 16, 1985 so Oaks statement was made two months befere the investigation even began. Yet, without referring to Hoffman he stated “no alteration of historical facts can shake our testimonies.”

I don’t know why you would think you need to modify what happened. Hoffman fooled a lot of people. He was forging everything from Deseret notes to the salamander letter.

What am I making up? I agree with you. If fact it was a lot worse than that!

He turned the LDS fine and rare book trade on its head. No one trusted that any document was authentic and who can know, to this day?

That was Oaks’ whole point. Our testimonies are not dependent on the latest findings of the rare book trade. And also the point that Paul made: “That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 2:5)

 

[RebeccaJ]

Still doesn’t say he knew anything about knowing that Hoffman was making forgeries. . He was just a Mormon leader giving the usual, “pay no attention to the man behind the curtain”, advise.

So, your point is, Mormon faith ignores history when it doesn’t align to belief? If it works for you, I guess. I’m not able to pretend things didn’t happen, when they did or pretend things happened when they did not.

 

[SteveVH]

Still doesn’t say he knew anything about knowing that Hoffman was making forgeries. . He was just a Mormon leader giving the usual, “pay no attention to the man behind the curtain”, advise.

So, your point is, Mormon faith ignores history when it doesn’t align to belief? If it works for you, I guess. I’m not able to pretend things didn’t happen, when they did or pretend things happened when they did not.

And this hits the nail on the head as far as, I believe, all Mormon doctrine and belief, from the “Great Apostasy”, to ancient civilizations who left no trace, to golden plates that no one has seen, to a meeting with heavenly beings based on no more than the claims of a man; a man with a reputation of fraud. Is there anything at all real about the LDS church; anything at all that can be documented or verified from history?

 

[pablope]

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This is from an article in LDS church news,.

Mark Hoffman was a con man,who fooled a lot of people, including the LDS first presidency. Oaks was fooled, or else he would have advised the first presidency otherwise and there wouldn’t be LDS church news articles like this one.

Please correct me if I am wrong:

Just my observation and perception…looks like the LDS leadership was quick to publish the finding…prior to authenticating it…in an effort to show proof of the validity of the LDS.

Now contrast this with what the CC does…if there is such a find…even before anyone within Church authority gets his picture taken…it is first thoroughly vetted and investigated…by independent experts.

Am I amiss in my perception?

 

[mtolympus]

Still doesn’t say he knew anything about knowing that Hoffman was making forgeries. . He was just a Mormon leader giving the usual, “pay no attention to the man behind the curtain”, advise.

So, your point is, Mormon faith ignores history when it doesn’t align to belief? If it works for you, I guess. I’m not able to pretend things didn’t happen, when they did or pretend things happened when they did not.

So are you saying that when no one could disprove the Hoffman forgeries that all Mormons should have suddenly abandoned their faith and left the LDS Church? And then when the investigation proved all Hoffmans works were forgeries that they should all come rushing back? Sorry, that is not how faith works.

“That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 2:5)

 

[mtolympus]

And this hits the nail on the head as far as, I believe, all Mormon doctrine and belief, from the “Great Apostasy”, to ancient civilizations who left no trace, to golden plates that no one has seen, to a meeting with heavenly beings based on no more than the claims of a man; a man with a reputation of fraud. Is there anything at all real about the LDS church; anything at all that can be documented or verified from history?

You are right it can’t be proven in the way many would like, (or not like). That is the way it is and was meant to be. Everyone must find their own Spiritual witness.

“For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.” (1 Thessalonians 1:5-6)

 

[TexanKnight]

So are you saying that when no one could disprove the Hoffman forgeries that all Mormons should have suddenly abandoned their faith and left the LDS Church? And then when the investigation proved all Hoffmans works were forgeries that they should all come rushing back? Sorry, that is not how faith works.

“That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 2:5)

Nope…the whole incident just shows how easily those folks that allegedly talk with God were fooled and how they tried to hide what they thought was the truth, wasted tons of mkney buying false documents, then tried to cover it up.

 

[TexanKnight]

And,

you are still dodging

and I still know why

 

[Porknpie]

And,

you are still dodging

and I still know why

Tex,

Sum this up for everyone…my try below… The point you are making is something along the line of :

If…today’s Mormon’s prophets can be fooled by a man in their midst…with a single document in their hands

Then…they can be fooled by a man long ago that they never met…who’s inconsistencies abound?

 

[TexanKnight]

Tex,

Sum this up for everyone…my try below… The point you are making is something along the line of :

If…today’s Mormon’s prophets can be fooled by a man in their midst…with a single document in their hands

Then…they can be fooled by a man long ago that they never met…who’s inconsistencies abound?

Yep.

Joseph Smith once called his followers the “greatest dupes” he ever saw.

And it STILL continues.

Almost everything they have done (and do) and have said (and say) prove they are not prophets of God.

 

[lax16]

So are you saying that when no one could disprove the Hoffman forgeries that all Mormons should have suddenly abandoned their faith and left the LDS Church? And then when the investigation proved all Hoffmans works were forgeries that they should all come rushing back? Sorry, that is not how faith works.

“That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 2:5)

If your prophet, seer, and revelator couldn’t tell the difference, then how can you call him a prophet?
Yes, Mormons should have abandoned their faith. Why would you go rushing back after an investigation? Why would a prophet need an investigation to prove something to be true or false?

“One of the purposes of a prophet is to seek the wisdom and the will of the Lord and to teach his people accordingly. It was the case with Moses when he led the children of Israel out of Egypt. It was the case for the Old Testament prophets when people were faced with oppression and trouble and difficulty. That is the purpose of a prophet, to give answers to people for the dilemmas in which they find themselves. That is what happens. That is what we see happen. Is it a matter of expediency, political expediency? No! Inspired guidance? Yes!”

(1996 General Conference) Gordon B. Hinckley

 

[mtolympus]

If your prophet, seer, and revelator couldn’t tell the difference, then how can you call him a prophet?
Yes, Mormons should have abandoned their faith. Why would you go rushing back after an investigation? Why would a prophet need an investigation to prove something to be true or false?

Good point. The prosecuting attorney in the state of Utah should have a direct line to the Prophets office so he can find out what the latest revelation is and save tax payers money when it comes to all criminal investigation!

That would be nice but that is not how it works. It was just a test of faith. The church had all the guidance it needed in talks like the one Oaks gave at BYU two months before the investigation began:

“Our individual, personal testimonies are based on the witness of the Spirit, not on any combination or accumulation of historical facts. If we are so grounded, no alteration of historical facts can shake our testimonies.” (“1985 CES Doctrine and Covenants Symposium,” Brigham Young University, Aug. 16, 1985, page 26)

“One of the purposes of a prophet is to seek the wisdom and the will of the Lord and to teach his people accordingly. It was the case with Moses when he led the children of Israel out of Egypt. It was the case for the Old Testament prophets when people were faced with oppression and trouble and difficulty. That is the purpose of a prophet, to give answers to people for the dilemmas in which they find themselves. That is what happens. That is what we see happen. Is it a matter of expediency, political expediency? No! Inspired guidance? Yes!”

(1996 General Conference) Gordon B. Hinckley

 

[TexanKnight]

Good point. The prosecuting attorney in the state of Utah should have a direct line to the Prophets office so he can find out what the latest revelation is and save tax payers money when it comes to all criminal investigation!

Nice deflection. How about your prophets find out the validity of documents before spending thousands and thousands of dollars to buy and hide the fake documents?

That would be nice but that is not how it works. It was just a test of faith. The church had all the guidance it needed in talks like the one Oaks gave at BYU two months before the investigation began:

Guidance it needed? Was that before or after it spent thousands and thousands of dollars to purchase the fake documents? In the OT, God warned true prophets of trickery and danger. Guess God stopped doing that when it came to LDS prophets, huh?

“Our individual, personal testimonies are based on the witness of the Spirit, not on any combination or accumulation of historical facts. If we are so grounded, no alteration of historical facts can shake our testimonies.” (“1985 CES Doctrine and Covenants Symposium,” Brigham Young University, Aug. 16, 1985, page 26)

Yep…don;t let something like history hurt your testimony. Or science, either. Or geography. Or geology. Or accuracy. Or truth…

:nope::nope:

 

[SteveVH]

You are right it can’t be proven in the way many would like, (or not like). That is the way it is and was meant to be. Everyone must find their own Spiritual witness.

No, sorry, that is not the way it was meant to be. The Catholic Church can back up everything through a well documented history. God did not give us the gift of rational thought as if we were supposed to just abandon it when it comes to matters of faith.

I can read the Bible, strictly as a historical account. I can verify that Jesus was a historic person from secular historians. I can read the account of Jesus’ life from credible witnesses. In a court of law if you have one or two eye witnesses you will most likely win your case. We have twelve eye witnesses to what Jesus said, the miracles he performed and the fact that he rose from the dead. Nothing in my “faith” is contradicted by reason based upon historical events. I can conclude that Jesus is who he said he was before I even consider bringing faith into the conversation.

Not so in Mormonism. You have no evidence of anything that you believe being true other than your internal “testimony” which can be neither proven nor disproven and which is therefore no evidence at all. Worse than having no evidence, however, is the fact that all evidence we do have, historical and otherwise, is a testimony against truth of the LDS faith.

“For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.” (1 Thessalonians 1:5-6)

Yes, and Paul was writing to and about Catholics. Furthermore, they had received the word from the Apostles or their representatives. This was not a matter of “pray about this and see if it feels right”. They were taught by those who had walked with Christ, who performed miracles to back up their claims. This in no way was about the “burning in the bosom”.