Question for LDS folks.

[gazelam]

thanks everyone for your replies to my question about how mormons would respond to the question of how they know that entity that provided joseph smith with the book of mormon did not come from lucifer.

gazelam,

i would only say to the practice of relying on a burning in the heart, that too could come from lucifer and/or his minions. how do mormons know the burning in the heart comes from the Holy Spirit?

most certainly, lucifer is highly motivated to use whatever weapons at his disposal to lead souls away from Jesus.

i have heard of people justifying fornication and adultery because of a burning in their hearts; or by saying, the heart wants what the heart wants.

That’s a good question. I can only offer a short, incomplete, and imperfect answer. I agree 1000% that Lucifer wants to lead our souls to destruction. Each of us needs to learn for ourself how the Holy Ghost works within us. A good way to do that may be to study Scripture to identify the various ways the Holy Ghost and Satan manifest themselves to us mortals. Then armed with that information one can pray to God asking for guidance (see James 1:5) and protection regarding the matter and asking how the Holy Ghost would be manifesting itself to the one asking. I hope that helps.

 

[gazelam]

gazelam,

to expound a little on my post where i asked for your definition of consubstantial.

in the passage in the gospel of john where Jesus prays that His followers be one as He and the Father are one, it is incorrect to think of the oneness as being the Oneness of the Three Pesons in the Most Holy Trinity. that is the oneness catholics mean when they use the term consubstantial.

however, in the passage in John, Jesus is referring to the oneness that exists between His human nature and His Divine Nature. catholics do not refer to that relationship as being consubstantial. the theological term i have heard used by catholic theologians to describe the relationship of Jesus’ human nature to His Divine nature is “hypostatic union”. the hypostatic union is a perfect union of the human and the Divine, but is not the consubtantial union that exists between the members of the Trinity.

it is not my intention to insult you, but the distinction above displays the ignorance under which your understanding of Sacred Scripture labors. catholics have been discussing the theology underlying our faith for nearly two thousand years. the foundation of catholics’ theological discussions are the personal teachings Jesus gave to the twelve apostled during the three years of His public ministry. only those twelve men received the fullness of the Lord’s teachings. that is why only the traditional understandings of His teachings that they passed on provide a sufficient basis upon which to rely in interpreting Sacred Scripture.

Sacred Scripture is quite clear in telling us that Jesus taught the apostles things He did not reveal to others during His public life. that is an essential element, although not the sole element, needed to correctly understand the theology underlying apostolic succession.

I appreciate you introducing to me the term “hypostatic union”.

 

[gazelam]

I don’t know how you can become more one with another than to become “one body”. We are not only one with Christ, on an indivdual basis, but one with each other as well and together we are the Bride of Christ. We must be in communion with each other in order to be one body, which is accomplished through communion with Christ.

But you do believe it is corrupt and that it was corrupted by the same Church that determined its canonicity. That’s kind of like thanking someone for a half spoiled sandwich.

We’re grateful for the unspoiled half!! Take care.

 

[gazelam]

from the Book of Mormon:

“. . . And now behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God without end. Amen.“
2 Nephi 31:21

. . . Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one eternal God . . .“
Alma 11:44

“. . . unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God . . .“
Mormon 7:7

• and don’t you think these BoM passages differ greatly from JS stating that:

“Many men say there is one God; the Father, the son and the Holy Ghost are only one God! I say this is a strange God anyhow—three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization. . . . All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster.“

(History of the Church/Vol. 1844)

It seems that the BoM passages regarding God strongly suggest a more traditional view of the Trinity.
It also is a sharp contrast to JS statement about the Trinity.

They are so very different - which one is correct?

I can see that coming from a Catholic Trinitarian perspective there can appear to be a contradiction. There isn’t one for me. That’s about the best response I can give this go-around.

 

[pablope]

I don’t disagree about testing a spirit. Latter-day Saints study Paul’s writing. But you didn’t refute my point.

The point is…if you rely on your spirits alone…you can be decieved…for the Bible says even Satan can mask as an angel of light.

How not to be deceived…you need someone alive on earth to authenticate your claimed spirit…that is what the verse says…listening…or obedience to an apostolic authority…not a supposed spirit, or claim that cannot be verified that the apostle John is alive on earth and walking.

 

[flameburns623]

Mormons, by-and-large, have a paradigm which teaches them to:

Interpret the Bible in light of latter-day revelation.

Interpret latter-day revelation in light of the authoritative teaching of the living prophets and apostles of the LDS Church.

Interpret and receive the authority of their leadership after honest study, sincere prayer, fasting, and reflection, based upon subjective insight and’personal revelation’.

These being the truth-sifting strategies of devout and practicing Latter-Day Saints, I’m not certain that some of the arguments and strategies employed here are as effectual as my fellow-Catholics believe.

 

[TexanKnight]

I can see that coming from a Catholic Trinitarian perspective there can appear to be a contradiction. There isn’t one for me. That’s about the best response I can give this go-around.

Then you intentionally do not see it. it is there. I am not sure how saying the three are “ONE GOD” escapes you.

Why do you dodge all the contradictions placed before you? If I belonged to a church where I had to keep dodging, rewording, and closing my eyes, I would pick a different church.

Oh wait.

I did.

 

[lax16]

I can see that coming from a Catholic Trinitarian perspective there can appear to be a contradiction. There isn’t one for me. That’s about the best response I can give this go-around.

Hi gazelam - Please explain how you came to your understanding of the previous mentioned scripture passages *not *implying the traditional Christian view of the Trinity. There must be a source for your interpretation.

thanks!

 

[eddie_too]

That’s a good question. I can only offer a short, incomplete, and imperfect answer. I agree 1000% that Lucifer wants to lead our souls to destruction. Each of us needs to learn for ourself how the Holy Ghost works within us. A good way to do that may be to study Scripture to identify the various ways the Holy Ghost and Satan manifest themselves to us mortals. Then armed with that information one can pray to God asking for guidance (see James 1:5) and protection regarding the matter and asking how the Holy Ghost would be manifesting itself to the one asking. I hope that helps.

gazelam,

i agree that studying Sacred Scripture can add to the knowledge and understanding of the believer. however, the Lord has provided additional aids, in addition to Sacred Scripture and Joseph Smith’s dealings with an ethereal entity of uncertain origin, to assist believers in understanding His ways and His teachings. my point is that there are far more aids given us by almighty God to assist us in growing in knowledge and understanding than just Sacred Scripture and the writings originating from the LDS.

i listed some of them earlier. i believe you have not taken advantage of many of these other aids provided by the Lord. we both know that Joseph Smith did not take advantage of all of the aids the Lord in His Divine Providence gave to mankind. that is why it seems unconvincing to reasonable people to rely on a feeling that originates through a very limited source, Joseph Smith and his dealings with an ethereal entity of unverifiable origin, while simultaneously ignoring the multitude of sources available from the Lord which sources, if known and understood, might prevent the warm feeling created in pepole through knowldege of Joseph Smith and his life from occurring.

for people familiar with the writings of men like St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine of Hippo, St. John Chrysostom, St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Gregory Nazianzus and a host of other holy men and women it appears a peculiar form of vanity to base one’s warm feelings on a few selected sources while ignoring a multitude of other sources.

 

[Tmaque]

I can see that coming from a Catholic Trinitarian perspective there can appear to be a contradiction. There isn’t one for me. That’s about the best response I can give this go-around.

Hi Gaz,

Would you take a crack at answering my original question that began this entire thread. I’m very interested in your opinion on the matter. By the way, are you a Utah Mormon, or elsewhere? It seems to matter on this issue.

Thanks bunches.

 

[mtolympus]

I am re-posting some of the questions I have asked you before that must have gotten buried beneath all of the other posts:

Thank you for you patience. I hope no one has run out of pop corn!

I am writing this to help anyone who may be interested in understanding the LDS view of the law of eternal progression. I am not trying to prove that LDS are right or that Catholics are wrong. Everything except quoted scripture is my personal understanding and speculation. These are my own views from study of the scriptures and are not from any official LDS Church source.

“We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see” (Teachings, pg. 345).

The above quotation from Joseph Smith is referring to God Our Father who is the father of our spirits. (Hebrews 12:9) It is referring to the personification and progress of God Our Father which is an eternal process. When Latter-day Saints speak about God we are always referring to God Our Eternal Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost.

There are two things about God that are eternal: 1- The glory of God. 2- The power and priesthood of God.

1- What is the glory of God? “Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth.” (D&C 93:29) “The glory of God is intelligence or, in other words, light and truth.” (D&C 93:36)

2- The power and priesthood of God is also eternal: “Which (the Melchizedek) priesthood continueth in the church of God in all generations and is without beginning of days or end of years” (D&C 84:17)

Since there is only one truth (which is the glory of God), and one Melchizedek priesthood (which is the power of God) there is only one God.

We do need more than this because you are hanging all of your beliefs on a quote from a man named Joseph Smith instead of the words of Jesus Christ. Jesus established a Church that He promised would never fall away and you are following a different church.

1. Who is right - Joseph Smith or Jesus Christ?

We argee that Jesus established a Church. Did the Church fall away from the original teachings and authority? LDS believe it did, Catholics do not believe it did. That subject has been discussed in many other theads. As I said, I am not trying to prove we are right or you are wrong. I am only trying to help those who want to understand our teachings.

If Joseph Smith was a prophet, then the teachings from the D&C come from Jesus Christ. D&C Section 93 begins: “Verily, thus saith the Lord” (D&C 93:1)

If God wanted there to be 100 or 1,000,000+ persons in one God then it would be possible.
He chose the Trinity and revealed it in the life of Jesus Christ as we read in scripture.
2. Why question it?

I don’t question it. We believe in God the Father, His Son, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. However, when non-LDS talk of the Mormon God or gods they are usually referring to the law of eternal progression. They qoute someone who said: “As man is God once was was, as God is man may become.” In other words God Our Father had a Father, and we, His children, may become like Him:

“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” (1 John 3:2)

I posed the following hypothetical question because it may help some understand the law of eternal progression: If three persons can be one God, can 100 or 1,000,000+ persons be one God if they are of the same substance?

From the beginning there is only one truth (which is the glory of God), and one Melchizedek priesthood (which is the power of God) therefore from the beginning there is only one God. However, the personification and progress of God and man is an eternal process.

Quote:
“Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.” (D&C 93:29)

1. Does this come from any other source other than the revelations of Joseph Smith?

No, not to my knowledge. We consider this a revelation of Jesus Christ to Joseph Smith.

1. It seems that the BoM has a more traditional view of the Trinity than current LDS teaching- why is that?
   For example, Alma 11:44, Mosiah 15:5-7, and 2 Nephi 31:21.
   Also, in The Testimony of Three Witnesses at the beginning of the BoM, it says: “And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.”

We believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are one God, but they are separate persons or beings. The Father and Jesus are physical and spirit beings, the Holy Ghost is spirit only. We believe they are one God in purpose and authority, (truth and priesthood?). When LDS want to show from the Bible that they are one in purpose they quote the from the following passage found in the book of John. This also tells us we can be one with God:

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.(John 17:20-21)

thanks!

You are welcome. I hope this helps answer your questions.

 

[zippity]

Then you intentionally do not see it. it is there. I am not sure how saying the three are “ONE GOD” escapes you.

Why do you dodge all the contradictions placed before you? If I belonged to a church where I had to keep dodging, rewording, and closing my eyes, I would pick a different church.

Oh wait.

I did.

 

[Janderich]

Thank you for you patience. I hope no one has run out of pop corn!

Thanks mtolympus this gave me a good laugh.

 

[TexanKnight]

Thanks mtolympus this gave me a good laugh.

Not sure there is such a thing as a bad laugh…

 

[eddie_too]

for any mormon, what is the LDS answer to thefollowing questons?

did God create the universe?

did God create time?

please be as succinct as you find possible, but also please give, at least a summary of the definitive LDS teaching on these two issues.

your answers will help us all understand the LDS belief on the nature of God.

 

[lax16]

Thank you for you patience. I hope no one has run out of pop corn!

I am writing this to help anyone who may be interested in understanding the LDS view of the law of eternal progression. I am not trying to prove that LDS are right or that Catholics are wrong. Everything except quoted scripture is my personal understanding and speculation. These are my own views from study of the scriptures and are not from any official LDS Church source.

I can appreciate that.

The above quotation from Joseph Smith is referring to God Our Father who is the father of our spirits. (Hebrews 12:9) It is referring to the personification and progress of God Our Father which is an eternal process. When Latter-day Saints speak about God we are always referring to God Our Eternal Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost.

There are two things about God that are eternal: 1- The glory of God. 2- The power and priesthood of God.

1- What is the glory of God? “Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth.” (D&C 93:29) “The glory of God is intelligence or, in other words, light and truth.” (D&C 93:36)

2- The power and priesthood of God is also eternal: “Which (the Melchizedek) priesthood continueth in the church of God in all generations and is without beginning of days or end of years” (D&C 84:17)

Why wouldn’t any of these teachings have “shown up” in the early writings of the Church?
The early Christians and Church Fathers were closest to those who knew Jesus Christ and
to those who passed on His teachings. How could this have been missed?

We argee that Jesus established a Church. Did the Church fall away from the original teachings and authority? LDS believe it did, Catholics do not believe it did. That subject has been discussed in many other theads. As I said, I am not trying to prove we are right or you are wrong. I am only trying to help those who want to understand our teachings.

So, what the LDS believe today is what Jesus taught 2,000 years ago but it was *misunderstood?
*

If Joseph Smith was a prophet, then the teachings from the D&C come from Jesus Christ. D&C Section 93 begins: “Verily, thus saith the Lord” (D&C 93:1)

mtolympus - With all due respect, isn’t it possible that Joseph Smith was not a prophet?

 

[gazelam]

Hi Gaz,

Would you take a crack at answering my original question that began this entire thread. I’m very interested in your opinion on the matter. By the way, are you a Utah Mormon, or elsewhere? It seems to matter on this issue.

Thanks bunches.

Tmaque,
You are very patient. I will probably disappoint you with my answer. First I’ll give my belief on the matter. Then I’ll explain why I’m not too concerned about my opinion on the matter. I believe that we arrived at this point of mortality by first being intelligence, then being spiritually born into the pre-existence, and again being physically born into mortality. I do believe I existed from the beginning with you and God the Father and everyone else. I don’t have a strong opinion one way or another regarding whether intelligence before spiritual birth is individuated or not. Here’s why. LDS doctrine teaches this about the pre-existence and mortality: (Abraham 3:26) “And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.” Our “first estate” in the pre-existence. Those who were faithful in the pre-existence were rewarded with a trip to mortality. Those who are faithful in mortality are rewarded with a trip to Heaven. Before we were born into the pre-existence when we existed as only an intelligence doesn’t seem to have much bearing on the final outcome. That’s probably not what you’re looking for.

And for the record I was raised on the West Coast and now reside on the East Coast. I attended BYU for four years and served an LDS mission for two years.

 

[lax16]

Tmaque,
I believe that we arrived at this point of mortality by first being intelligence, then being spiritually born into the pre-existence, and again being physically born into mortality. I do believe I existed from the beginning with you and God the Father and everyone else.

gazelam - what is the stage of intelligence like? What do you know?

What does it mean to be spiritually born into the pre-existence? What do you know?

What do you already know when we are physically born? (I am assuming something from the stage of intelligence).

thanks!

 

[SteveVH]

Tmaque,
You are very patient. I will probably disappoint you with my answer. First I’ll give my belief on the matter. Then I’ll explain why I’m not too concerned about my opinion on the matter. I believe that we arrived at this point of mortality by first being intelligence, then being spiritually born into the pre-existence, and again being physically born into mortality. I do believe I existed from the beginning with you and God the Father and everyone else. I don’t have a strong opinion one way or another regarding whether intelligence before spiritual birth is individuated or not. Here’s why. LDS doctrine teaches this about the pre-existence and mortality: (Abraham 3:26) “And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.” Our “first estate” in the pre-existence. Those who were faithful in the pre-existence were rewarded with a trip to mortality. Those who are faithful in mortality are rewarded with a trip to Heaven. Before we were born into the pre-existence when we existed as only an intelligence doesn’t seem to have much bearing on the final outcome. That’s probably not what you’re looking for.

And for the record I was raised on the West Coast and now reside on the East Coast. I attended BYU for four years and served an LDS mission for two years.

The question that always comes to my mind is this. What is your idea of “omnipotence”? It seems to me that the Mormon idea of a pre-mortal existence completely contradicts the idea that God is “all-powerful”. It makes God dependent upon co-existing beings and matter in order to “create”. If God is dependent upon anything then he is not omnipotent.

I have said more than once that this idea (pre-mortal existence) influences all other Mormon thought. The most shocking consequence of one having this belief was a Mormon (on lds.net) who I witnessed defending abortion on the premise that the one who was aborted had chosen to come to earth and be aborted. In other words, it was meant to be. I realize this is an extreme example but it shows the extent to which this entire proposition can affect one’s perception of the world and our purpose in being here.

 

[eddie_too]

i do not know whether gazelam is writing official LDS doctrine when he writes, " I do believe I existed from the beginning with you and God the Father and everyone else."

but it does make it seem that mormons believe that they are not creatures.

i am unsure how the LDS reconciles gaszelam’s statement with genesis where it is written, “in the beginning, God created …”.