Question for LDS folks.

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lax16 said:
Where do Mormons get their view of God and His abilities?
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From the Lord himself through modern day revelation and prophets who have spoken on the matter. Where else? I don’t see that any of your scriptures contradict what I have stated.
 
Janderich said:
They of course are eternal and have always existed. While I know you disagree, I don’t think this should be much of a logical stretch for Catholics since you believe God is eternal and has always existed in his current state.
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Are you saying what you call “eternal laws”, are gods? Something your God is subject to?
 
Janderich said:
From the Lord himself through modern day revelation and prophets who have spoken on the matter. Where else? I don’t see that any of your scriptures contradict what I have stated.
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I agree…your god got his powers from “prophets”
 
This going around reflects the basic issue, something I was taught about Mormonism many years ago, and that is, that Mormonism does not believe in God but in man.

Mormonism is a man made religion. All of creation, all creatures are in constant change and Mormonism has changing and morphing beliefs, because it is based on man.

Judaism and universal Christianity believes in God, “I AM WHO AM”, the eternal state of being Who wills us into existence, God Who manifests Himself among a gathering of people where His prophets are accountable not only to Him, but the veracity of their prophecies held accountable before the gathering of people.

Again, it gets down to the Creator vs the created.

Who is like Christ and who is not.

Rather than make us gods, Christ shares new life with us from God, the Author of Life…and the new life of Christ makes us more alive, totally fulfilled, and most of all most human. We are truly ourselves when we are in Christ.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Are you saying what you call “eternal laws”, are gods? Something your God is subject to?
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Eternal laws are not gods. A god is a being, not a principle. A principle defines the fundamental nature of a thing. Joseph Smith called these laws, “eternal and self-existent principles.” (TPJS p 181) Of course he uses law, but your notion that a principle controls God is faulty.

Now answer me this, how does God work without fundamental eternal laws? Does he create them, if so, how can he define the first one?
 
God creates natural law. If he were to contradict them, he would be bringing death and destruction to them.

You did not read my post.
 
Likewise, to make up stories that the true faith was lost, all doctrines and creeds are corrupt, and so on, but then to turn around and use the same images of God, to the point of even drawing on Christian teachings…is it safe to say…that…

Mormonism is attempting to hijack Christianity???

It is better to re-name your god who you use…he is more of a machine to manipulate and use for your progression…that is what it looks like…

Mormonism contradicts Sacred Scriptures and has to use other texts to so call, – reinterpret the Bible. Yet all the passing ideas and concepts and changing platforms shows me Mormonism cannot provide any texts to properly understand Scripture.

You have to look at Scripture for what it is and to whom it is written and where and in what context.

Best to take the highway and remain with the tradition of faith that goes back to ancient Jewish times.

Mormonism seems to come across as obsessed with Catholicism, always trying to find ways to trump it so it can be validated. Can’t do that.

What Mormonism should do is rename its god figures. Don’t use Scripture. Stay with your own mormon books and progression resources.

Don’t you think with such a diametrically opposite view…likewise at the end of our lives…we end up in different places??? I am not even referring to hell,…but how we go out…and to where.

I don’t think Mormonism believes in hell…only when its members want to leave it.
 
Janderich keeps making the flawed mistake of trying to make God into the little Joseph Smith god that is comprehensible to humans. When will he learn? God has made it clear we canot comprehend Him.
 
Janderich said:
Steve,
This comes down to an issue of eternal laws. According to my understanding of Catholicism you believe God is outside of law.
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Do you mean is he above physical laws of nature? Abslolutely. How can he be subject to something he created? As to moral laws they cannot apply to God because he is the perfection of morality. He is all just, all loving, all merciful. Laws are created to guide us and protect us. God needs neither guidance or protection. He needs nothing to keep him in line. Who created these laws to which you believe God is subject?
Janderich said:
With this false notion in hand you say God is unbound, that he can do anything. You believe that somehow this gives Him power. However for one who seriously considers the matter it is an impossible position. It leaves God with no structure in which to work.

I once explained it to Rebecca this way. Let’s play a game. You start…

You can do nothing, there are no rules. The game cannot even begin. This is the problem with the Catholic view of Omnipotence it is simply cannot exist because it allows God no structure in which to work.
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Why does God need a structure within which to work? And if he did, who provided that structure? God is all-powerful, something you do not seem to grasp. You cannot imagine a God who did not find himself among co-eternal “intelligences” and “matter” so that he had something with which to work. God has never needed anything. He does not need us. That is what is so incredible, don’t you see? God has absolutely nothing to gain by creating us or loving us. We can neither increase nor decrease his glory. He literally brought us and everything else that exists into being, from nothing but his love and power. And after we betrayed that love he continued to love us so much that he gave his very life for us so that we might spend eternity with him.

We have an amazing God. You must stop thinking of him in anthropological terms, a God subject to certain laws, and open your mind to a God beyond your comprehension, a God who progressed from nothing but has been the same from eternity and who is the source of all life and all existence. Sorry, but it is you who have the false notion about God.
 
Janderich said:
Eternal laws are not gods. A god is a being, not a principle. A principle defines the fundamental nature of a thing. Joseph Smith called these laws, “eternal and self-existent principles.” (TPJS p 181) Of course he uses law, but your notion that a principle controls God is faulty.
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Then why would tou think a Catholic would accept the comparison of “eternal laws” to God?

We of course don’t. God is the only self- existence. God is not subject to anything.
Now answer me this, how does God work without fundamental eternal laws? Does he create them, if so, how can he define the first one?
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God creates and is not subject to anything or anyone.

I don’t know why you think God cannot create the first, of anything. (?)
 
KathleenGee said:
God creates natural law. If he were to contradict them, he would be bringing death and destruction to them.

You did not read my post.
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I read your post but I don’t think it in any way negates my question. How did God define the first law?
 
SteveVH said:
Do you mean is he above physical laws of nature? Abslolutely. How can he be subject to something he created? As to moral laws they cannot apply to God because he is the perfection of morality. He is all just, all loving, all merciful. Laws are created to guide us and protect us. God needs neither guidance or protection. He needs nothing to keep him in line. Who created these laws to which you believe God is subject?
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As stated before they are eternal. They do not need God to create them.
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SteveVH:
Why does God need a structure within which to work? And if he did, who provided that structure? God is all-powerful, something you do not seem to grasp. You cannot imagine a God who did not find himself among co-eternal “intelligences” and “matter” so that he had something with which to work. God has never needed anything. He does not need us. That is what is so incredible, don’t you see? God has absolutely nothing to gain by creating us or loving us. We can neither increase nor decrease his glory. He literally brought us and everything else that exists into being, from nothing but his love and power. And after we betrayed that love he continued to love us so much that he gave his very life for us so that we might spend eternity with him.

We have an amazing God. You must stop thinking of him in anthropological terms, a God subject to certain laws, and open your mind to a God beyond your comprehension, a God who progressed from nothing but has been the same from eternity and who is the source of all life and all existence. Sorry, but it is you who have the false notion about God.
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This is where it seems to go round and round with those on this forum. I understand your belief, I simply don’t agree with it. In the end it boils down to this. Of course God is all powerful we both agree on this point. But those here want to say that God must be defined in their terms and to believe anything less is to limit God. Those here continue to say that Mormon’s don’t believe in His ability, but it is not about that at all, it is about possibility. And that is where the difference lies.
 
Janderich said:
As stated before they are eternal. They do not need God to create them.

This is where it seems to go round and round with those on this forum. I understand your belief, I simply don’t agree with it. In the end it boils down to this. Of course God is all powerful we both agree on this point. But those here want to say that God must be defined in their terms and to believe anything less is to limit God. Those here continue to say that Mormon’s don’t believe in His ability, but it is not about that at all, it is about possibility. And that is where the difference lies.
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The LDS god only has as much power and Joseph Smith gave him. He is controlled by rules.

this is what happens when people try to make God smaller enough to understand him.
 
Janderich said:
As stated before they are eternal. They do not need God to create them.

This is where it seems to go round and round with those on this forum. I understand your belief, I simply don’t agree with it. In the end it boils down to this. Of course God is all powerful we both agree on this point. But those here want to say that God must be defined in their terms and to believe anything less is to limit God. Those here continue to say that Mormon’s don’t believe in His ability, but it is not about that at all, it is about possibility. And that is where the difference lies.
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It is about the Mormon belief that God is dependent. The point is, you can’t logically be dependent and all powerful. Answering logic with, that is how you define God, is nonsensical. We do not define God as dependent.
 
Janderich said:
As stated before they are eternal. They do not need God to create them.
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This notion completley contradicts all reason. It is an objective truth that all that we can observe around us has its origin in something before it. In other words something “caused” it to happen. Natural laws, matter, intelligences, all of these cannot exist of their own power. To think otherwise is simply to ignore the world around you. There had to be, both in faith and in reason, one eternal Source.
Janderich said:
This is where it seems to go round and round with those on this forum. I understand your belief, I simply don’t agree with it. In the end it boils down to this. Of course God is all powerful we both agree on this point.
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No, we don’t agree at all. You do not, by your own definition, believe that God is all-powerful. You believe he fashioned creation from pre-existing things. But here is the test. Even though you believe as you do, would you be willing to say that God is capable, being “omnipotent”, of creating something from nothing? Is it possible for him to do so or not?
Janderich said:
But those here want to say that God must be defined in their terms and to believe anything less is to limit God. Those here continue to say that Mormon’s don’t believe in His ability, but it is not about that at all, it is about possibility. And that is where the difference lies.
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It is not about possibility, it is about truth. We can not go around chasing every fancy of our imagination. We must seek truth wherever it is and accept it, not fashion a faith of our own desires.
 
Janderich said:
Using what means did this matter, energy, and life obey Him?
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The means was his Word. When God speaks it is not in sound waves but rather in reality. He said “Let there be light, and there was light”. His words don’t describe things, they cause them to come into existence. It is why Christ can say “this is my body… this is my blood”. It becomes that which is spoken.
 
TexanKnight said:
The LDS god only has as much power and Joseph Smith gave him. He is controlled by rules.

this is what happens when people try to make God smaller enough to understand him.
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TexanKnight, It is not about the person who reveals God to us. It is about truth. If the truth comes from the Pope so be it. Who am I to argue against it? For if I did, ultimately I would be wrong. Likewise if it comes from you, Rebecca, or Steve. But if the truth comes from Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, I will also seek it out.

Actually I have almost felt to thank you, Rebecca and others on this forum for helping me focus my testimony more on Jesus Christ and the gospel he helped Joseph Smith restore. For you are all apt at pointing out inconsistencies, many imagined but some real. Because of this, It has made me a better follower of the Son.
 
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