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Janderich
Guest
Circular reasoning…
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gazelam
Guest
Glad to oblige, lax16.
I have no clue what the intelligence stage is like. I’m unaware of any scripture or prophetic teachings on the topic. I just know it was.
Spiritually born into the preexistence means to be given your spirit body by your Heavenly Father. Christ was the first born in the spirit (Col 1:15, Romans 8:29). You and I were somewhere between 2 and 25,000,000,000. This spiritual birth refers to the preexistence and not to the notion of being spiritually born of God in mortality. All living mortals have their spirit inside if them. Upon physical death the spirit leaves the body.
I’m not sure how to answer the last question. LDS believe that we were taught of God in the preexistence and that our memories from the prexistence are blocked at birth.
I hope this helps.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
No, it is not. It is what all Christians believe about God because that is how God has revealed himself. He is the Alpha and Omega. The Beginning and End. ALL of creation is in Him, through Him and by Him.
Mormons have created an exception to what God has revealed about himself. God is not the creator of ALL things for you. God is not the Beginning for you, eternal laws and matter have appeared in your belief and you imagine they existed before God. God is no longer the beginning when you imagine something exists before God.
Either you believe what God has revealed about himself, or you invent a new god. Idolatry is a sin.
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gazelam
Guest
Excellent work posting the link!
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KathleenGee
Guest
Thank you for reading my post, Janderich.
The answer you are seeking is in the beginning chapters of Genesis.
God simply wills. And creation answers in its fiat, ‘Yes!’.
God the Father, the Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, Three in One all relational in One God, One Will.
Jesus Christ was divine before He became Human at the Incarnation…through the fiat of Mary’s “yes, Thy will be done!”
Will and the fiat of creation.
In Christ’s divine nature, that was to be come Human for our salvation, it is Jesus Christ through which the carnate world was created.
And Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega of Scripture…in that we call Scripture, ‘Logos’…Jesus Christ the Living Word of God become Man.
When God spoke at the beginning of creation, Jesus Christ was the Word formed through the Holy Spirit.
I would suggest to you to get the first book of Thomas Aquinas’ “Summa”, the Book on God and here His nature is philosophically and mystically studied, defined.
I would say parallel to this, Aristotle trumps Joseph Smith because Aristotle in all his great understanding of philosophy, of whom many philosophers from different cultures studied and expanded into their own cultures…recognized one constant to our existence and creation.
This one single unmovable point is what Aristotle discovered and he called it, ‘Cause and Effect’. So yes, Aristotle wins hands up on source of being, of creation.
Thomas Aquinas changed the terms but not the philosophy…God is the Unmoved Mover.
And the other gem…‘the understanding of man can be compared to the eye of an owl.’
I have heard of those more intellectually inclined coming to faith in God from their personal reflections of this life and seeing there is some cause at work, some fixed point from which all emanates.
God the Unmoved Mover…Without His will, we would not exist.
The answer you are seeking is in the beginning chapters of Genesis.
God simply wills. And creation answers in its fiat, ‘Yes!’.
God the Father, the Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, Three in One all relational in One God, One Will.
Jesus Christ was divine before He became Human at the Incarnation…through the fiat of Mary’s “yes, Thy will be done!”
Will and the fiat of creation.
In Christ’s divine nature, that was to be come Human for our salvation, it is Jesus Christ through which the carnate world was created.
And Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega of Scripture…in that we call Scripture, ‘Logos’…Jesus Christ the Living Word of God become Man.
When God spoke at the beginning of creation, Jesus Christ was the Word formed through the Holy Spirit.
I would suggest to you to get the first book of Thomas Aquinas’ “Summa”, the Book on God and here His nature is philosophically and mystically studied, defined.
I would say parallel to this, Aristotle trumps Joseph Smith because Aristotle in all his great understanding of philosophy, of whom many philosophers from different cultures studied and expanded into their own cultures…recognized one constant to our existence and creation.
This one single unmovable point is what Aristotle discovered and he called it, ‘Cause and Effect’. So yes, Aristotle wins hands up on source of being, of creation.
Thomas Aquinas changed the terms but not the philosophy…God is the Unmoved Mover.
And the other gem…‘the understanding of man can be compared to the eye of an owl.’
I have heard of those more intellectually inclined coming to faith in God from their personal reflections of this life and seeing there is some cause at work, some fixed point from which all emanates.
God the Unmoved Mover…Without His will, we would not exist.
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twopekinguys
Guest
And there we have it!! When all else fails, bear your testimony!!
It took a while, but I knew it would happen.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Only ancient Greeks believed in some sort of premortal existence.
I find my beliefs founded on Sacred Scripture that life begins at conception with the cooperation of the couple and God.
Man procreates, angels do not.
Procreation is for this life, not for the next.
The next life is our communion with God and all our loved ones who have endured to the end in Christ.
I find my beliefs founded on Sacred Scripture that life begins at conception with the cooperation of the couple and God.
Man procreates, angels do not.
Procreation is for this life, not for the next.
The next life is our communion with God and all our loved ones who have endured to the end in Christ.
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KathleenGee
Guest
There is no such thing as lost gospels or the implication thereof.
Such talk reflects that hokey history channel with conspiracy theories and the lost gospels which in fact are shams.
Hokey History.
God has called us to be in His image, and it means also using our brains and reason.
To follow one man vs the history of salvation history where Revelation comes to a gathering of believers, is akin to believing in the Lone Ranger.
I strongly recommend Mormons to start reading authentic salvation history – main line and not some deviant, fractured take, and start to study logic and critical thinking, and what makes verifiable witness rather than some man who starts out condemning Christianity, the Apostles Creed…
How many Mormons have died for Joseph Smith? How many Christians in its earliest times have died for Christ? How did they worship? What were their real beliefs?
You will find them in the Catholic Church’s history of saints.
The Catholic Church has preserved the true Gospels of Christ and they are used by Protestants as well.
Such talk reflects that hokey history channel with conspiracy theories and the lost gospels which in fact are shams.
Hokey History.
God has called us to be in His image, and it means also using our brains and reason.
To follow one man vs the history of salvation history where Revelation comes to a gathering of believers, is akin to believing in the Lone Ranger.
I strongly recommend Mormons to start reading authentic salvation history – main line and not some deviant, fractured take, and start to study logic and critical thinking, and what makes verifiable witness rather than some man who starts out condemning Christianity, the Apostles Creed…
How many Mormons have died for Joseph Smith? How many Christians in its earliest times have died for Christ? How did they worship? What were their real beliefs?
You will find them in the Catholic Church’s history of saints.
The Catholic Church has preserved the true Gospels of Christ and they are used by Protestants as well.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
It is the Mormon ping pong game. Jesus Christ is indeed our refuge, some Mormons will seek that refuge as an escape from the unending layers of Mormon “inconsistencies”. Escapism is a strategy that will only work for so long, as the inconsistencies of Mormonism exist persistently in their christology.And there we have it!! When all else fails, bear your testimony!!
It took a while, but I knew it would happen.
A shelf is your best bet Janderich. Just put the inconsistencies out of your mind and don’t think about them, ever.
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lax16
Guest
Yes, sometimes even I resort to link-posting!Excellent work posting the link!
Well, the real reason is because your question is answered in words that I could never use or in a way that I could never explain. Some things are best left up to physicists!
What is your response to the Q & A?
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Janderich
Guest
The Genesis story wherein God says “Let there be _____” is clearly allegorical. While no doubt God did in some fashion say “Let there be light” this short and incomplete description does not fully describe what happened. To think it does is folly and closes a person off to further understanding.
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KathleenGee
Guest
If we knew how God ‘did it’, we would then be some god ourselves, wouldn’t we?..
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RebeccaJ
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My thought as well, but that is what Mormons believe about themselves, So God has to be understood according to human understanding, or they themselves can’t be gods.
If you can understand yourself, you can understand God. Never mind scripture that clearly states God’s ways are not our ways.
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KathleenGee
Guest
First of all, true faith is entering mystery…where one can also find common ground with one’s neighbor. We all have the same Creator, after all.
True faith is never expressed from a solitary point but rather one in relation to one another. That is also why there was no Great Apostasy at the beginning of Christianity, whose bonds among Christians were so strong, who laid down their lives for their neighbors, even the pagans dying in the streets of the plague.
Apostasy is breaking away from Christ, away from His gift of communion, and at the same time, breaking communion with fellow believers.
As Tertullian said, this love for neighbor brought about many conversions. Not…well, I am a saint and I am so good and I am not going to associate with those gentiles…corrupt as they are with their doctrines.
People always see us better than we think.
True faith is never expressed from a solitary point but rather one in relation to one another. That is also why there was no Great Apostasy at the beginning of Christianity, whose bonds among Christians were so strong, who laid down their lives for their neighbors, even the pagans dying in the streets of the plague.
Apostasy is breaking away from Christ, away from His gift of communion, and at the same time, breaking communion with fellow believers.
As Tertullian said, this love for neighbor brought about many conversions. Not…well, I am a saint and I am so good and I am not going to associate with those gentiles…corrupt as they are with their doctrines.
People always see us better than we think.
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twopekinguys
Guest
Have you checked out Mormonthink.com ?
I find it quite interesting. It is run by active mormons who are pointing out the inconsistencies etc.
The first head of the website was threatened with a “court of love”, and stepped down, but the guy who is in charge now isn’t wavering at all.
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Janderich
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God cannot be completely understood by we fallen humans. But neither do I think it blasphemy to consider the matter more deeply.
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RebeccaJ
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Yes, I spent years reading Mormon websites, pro and con. Mormon think was one of them. I had at one time a subscription to Gospellink.com. It was a very cheap way to access nearly all of the Mormon work that Mormons and critics of Mormonism reference. Mormonthink does a good job of showing the facts, but TBMs will never take them seriously. For them, everything not presented in the most beautiful rosey light is Anti-Mormon.
Facts don’t always light things the way in which we like to see them.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Communing with God does not make you a god.
You should understand, I seriously think that if Smith had lived long enough, he would have claimed to be God. So, posting his egomaniacal quotes doesn’t show me anything abut God. It does show about Smith.
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lax16
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This used to be taught in seminary.
The Book of Abraham
Chapter 3
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.
19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.
20 The Lord thy God sent his angel to deliver thee from the hands of the priest of Elkenah.
21 I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.
Why do Mormons believe that humans choose their destiny? For example, a child with Downs Syndrome chose to be born that way? (I have been told this by Mormons)
Yes, thanks!
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lax16
Guest
Janderich - Thousands of years of Jewish and Christian beliefs contradict what you have stated.
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