Question for LDS folks.

[RebeccaJ]

The Genesis story wherein God says “Let there be _____” is clearly allegorical. While no doubt God did in some fashion say “Let there be light” this short and incomplete description does not fully describe what happened. To think it does is folly and closes a person off to further understanding.

How does what SteveVH wrote not recognize the allegory and deeper meaning?

The Word of God is Jesus Christ. All things exist in and through Him. Whether you take that God literally said the words or not, what came to be exists because God willed it to be so, is the point.

We have seen your same call to infuse imagination into scripture by other LDS who have posted here.

 

[lax16]

Actually I have almost felt to thank you, Rebecca and others on this forum for helping me focus my testimony more on Jesus Christ and the gospel he helped Joseph Smith restore. For you are all apt at pointing out inconsistencies, many imagined but some real. Because of this, It has made me a better follower of the Son.

How do inconsistencies help you focus more on your testimony of Jesus Christ?

Don’t settle for inconsistency Janderich! Be open to the truth. God’s plan is seamless.

 

[KathleenGee]

Janderich…in response to your question, when did God make the first law…He didn’t dictate it to creation…but He did tell Adam and Eve not to eat the forbidden fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

God also told Adam and Eve they could eat of the other fruit, and He named only one good fruit they could eat, ‘The Tree of Life’.

Then Satan came to Eve and told her to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil…so she could become as the gods…she ate it and it was pleasing to eat and so she offered the fruit to Adam and he ate of it.

Instead of seeing themselves now as gods, they were ashamed of their own nakedness. This is the greatest sin in the world…disobedience and to seek one’s will in becoming as a god.

They were cast out, they were forbidden to eat of the Tree of Life…and yet the tree was in front of them, separated by the angel with a sword of fire.

That Tree of Life eventually became Christ and His fruit, the Eucharist, having died on a tree, suffering, and put to shame, and mocked. The fruit of the Tree of Life is given us through the Church, Christ’s reign here on earth.

Christ chose the time of history He wished to be born. Recalling Abraham…after the Angel Gabriel came down and prevented him from offering his only son to God, the angel pointed to sacrifice instead the ram that had gotten stuck in a bush.

Christ was born in the Constellation of Aries, the Ram, that would provide us the Sacrificial Lamb, Jesus Christ. Christ was born in Judea, but as a sign of rejection, born in a stable, placed in a manger. Likewise pointed out by the Angel Gabriel to the shepherds…to become Food for us, Bethlehem meaning ‘Bread’. Being born in the Constellation of Aries, Christ intended to proclaim to the world that He came not just for the Jews, or for humanity, but also for all history of mankind.

Obedience to the First Law, the Fall, the promise in the allegory of the Tree of Life that likewise went out ahead of fallen nature gives one hope.

Justice and mercy go hand in hand…

So the first law was not to eat of the forbidden fruit.

What is interesting as well, is that what at first seems like allegory, one steps back and looks at the fullness of faith, salvation history, and the scope of mankind…it isn’t so much allegorical after all, but divine truth speaking to all of humanity in all time.

In the reception of the Eucharist, we are able to live in eternal time and read deep, constant truths that have been reflected as well in science and history…just in regards to Christ’s birth in the time of Aries.

 

[KathleenGee]

Finally, we can see to reduce our faith in God in paper and text or a singular someone’s interpretation or ‘new ideas’…seems so small…because the deep truths about God are reflected in life itself.

We believe in the One True Living God Who is the Author of Life itself and speaks to us through various modes of life. Oral Tradition. Person to Person in communion.

 

[gazelam]

This used to be taught in seminary.

The Book of Abraham
Chapter 3

18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

20 The Lord thy God sent his angel to deliver thee from the hands of the priest of Elkenah.

21 I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

To me the important feature of these verses is that Christ to some extent organized His future leaders in the preexistence, and that His intellect is greater than that of any other. To me these verses are taking place after the spirit birth because of the reference to spirits. The statement " I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen." could have either taken place before or after the spiritual birth. A gathering of spirits includes the respective intelligence of each spirit. In the same way that a gathering of mortals could be called a gathering of spirits. The spirits are there still present even though each individual also has a body. So, food for though as to whether any of these verses pertain to the pre-spirit portion of our existence.

Why do Mormons believe that humans choose their destiny? For example, a child with Downs Syndrome chose to be born that way? (I have been told this by Mormons)

I’ve heard various accounts of spirits being offered or given certain favorble or unfavorable conditions on Earth either as a reward for being valient in the preexistence or perhaps to allow increased development of a god-like attribute, A Downs Syndrome baby could be sent to a mother who needs to learn patience and humility, for example.

John 9:1-3 (KJV) states :

1.And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

These verses are an example of someone given a disability that ultimately lead to the power of God being manifest. Verse 2 clearly assumes that if the sinning was done by the blind man it was done in a previous life and Jesus did not correct them and say that the blind man was created out of nothing.

 

[TexanKnight]

TexanKnight, It is not about the person who reveals God to us. It is about truth.

If it was really about truth, you would be Catholic

If the truth comes from the Pope so be it. Who am I to argue against it? For if I did, ultimately I would be wrong. Likewise if it comes from you, Rebecca, or Steve.

It does not come from us. It comes from God.

But if the truth comes from Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, I will also seek it out.

Which truth? That Michael helped create the earth, became Adam and Adam is our God? Or that God was once a sinful man? or one of the nine versions of the First Vision? Or that people who never existed lived in a land no one can find? Or that men live on the moon dressed like Quakers?

Actually I have almost felt to thank you, Rebecca and others on this forum for helping me focus my testimony more on Jesus Christ and the gospel he helped Joseph Smith restore.

If truth drives you away to false prophets and you are happy with that, you are welcome.

For you are all apt at pointing out inconsistencies, many imagined but some real. Because of this, It has made me a better follower of the Son.

If that were really true, you would be Catholic and not a Mormon who hangs out on Catholic boards

 

[TexanKnight]

The Genesis story wherein God says “Let there be _____” is clearly allegorical. While no doubt God did in some fashion say “Let there be light” this short and incomplete description does not fully describe what happened. To think it does is folly and closes a person off to further understanding.

No, in the Mormon version, God sends Jesus and Michael to create everything. Janderich would rather call the Bible false and limit God’s power.

 

[kimg901]

To me the important feature of these verses is that Christ to some extent organized His future leaders in the preexistence, and that His intellect is greater than that of any other. To me these verses are taking place after the spirit birth because of the reference to spirits. The statement " I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen." could have either taken place before or after the spiritual birth. A gathering of spirits includes the respective intelligence of each spirit. In the same way that a gathering of mortals could be called a gathering of spirits. The spirits are there still present even though each individual also has a body. So, food for though as to whether any of these verses pertain to the pre-spirit portion of our existence.

I’ve heard various accounts of spirits being offered or given certain favorble or unfavorable conditions on Earth either as a reward for being valient in the preexistence or perhaps to allow increased development of a god-like attribute, A Downs Syndrome baby could be sent to a mother who needs to learn patience and humility, for example.

John 9:1-3 (KJV) states :

1.And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

These verses are an example of someone given a disability that ultimately lead to the power of God being manifest. Verse 2 clearly assumes that if the sinning was done by the blind man it was done in a previous life and Jesus did not correct them and say that the blind man was created out of nothing.

So im less valiant because I have dark skin? Im here to be a burden on my parents to teach them what? Tolerate other dark skinned people? Your “so-called” prophets revelations are out of this world. I guess im not good enough to get to Heaven because now God is a racist and burdens people with ill children, dark children, bad children. Dont make sense seeing we are all Gods children. Hope you stocked up on water because it gets hot down there.

 

[KathleenGee]

Mormon writings came out in America about 150 years ago…again…how can that be when they contradict the 5,000 plus years old tradition of Sacred Scripture???

 

[SteveVH]

The Genesis story wherein God says “Let there be _____” is clearly allegorical. While no doubt God did in some fashion say “Let there be light” this short and incomplete description does not fully describe what happened. To think it does is folly and closes a person off to further understanding.

Well, Genesis is written in poetic prose. That does not mean it doesn’t convey the truth that God created everything from nothing. What is there to described? Do you think that God actually worked, fashioning the things he found around him into creation? Is that why he had to rest on the Sabbath? Why does God have to “full describe” what he did? He spoke it through his Son, hiw Word, and it was.

 

[Porknpie]

TexanKnight:
Tex, I’m always learning … Explain this one for me…

Or that men live on the moon dressed like Quakers?

 

[SteveVH]

Circular reasoning…

Janderich, you have either missed my post or ignored it but I asked a very simple question to which I would appreciate an answer. You say that you believe that God is omnipotent. Do you believe that God has the capability to create something from nothing? Even if you believe that he used co-eternal, existing things in order to fashion creation, does he have the power to create from nothing should he choose to do so?

Thanks.

 

[kimg901]

Or that men live on the moon dressed like Quakers?

Wow, we made it to the moon? Like in Transformers? When I grow up I want to be an astronaut!!!

 

[lax16]

To me the important feature of these verses is that Christ to some extent organized His future leaders in the preexistence, and that His intellect is greater than that of any other. To me these verses are taking place after the spirit birth because of the reference to spirits. The statement " I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen." could have either taken place before or after the spiritual birth. A gathering of spirits includes the respective intelligence of each spirit. In the same way that a gathering of mortals could be called a gathering of spirits. The spirits are there still present even though each individual also has a body. So, food for though as to whether any of these verses pertain to the pre-spirit portion of our existence.

Do you believe the Book of Abraham is true and that Joseph Smith really translated the papyri?

I’ve heard various accounts of spirits being offered or given certain favorble or unfavorable conditions on Earth either as a reward for being valient in the preexistence or perhaps to allow increased development of a god-like attribute, A Downs Syndrome baby could be sent to a mother who needs to learn patience and humility, for example.

I agree that God could send a baby with Downs to a mother to teach her patience and humility.
However, the question is, did the baby choose it? That is what I have heard Mormons say. Not that God did it, but that the person in their pre-existent state chose it.
What do you think?

John 9:1-3 (KJV) states :

1.And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

These verses are an example of someone given a disability that ultimately lead to the power of God being manifest. Verse 2 clearly assumes that if the sinning was done by the blind man it was done in a previous life and Jesus did not correct them and say that the blind man was created out of nothing.

Again, this does not address the idea that is the person who chooses to enter this life with a disability, not God, according to LDS thought/teaching.

 

[kimg901]

Could someone please show me where in the Bible it says people chose to be abortions or have down syndrome, or babies dying right after being born? I have never read such a thing or did I miss a chapter somewhere?

 

[kimg901]

To me the important feature of these verses is that Christ to some extent organized His future leaders in the preexistence, and that His intellect is greater than that of any other. To me these verses are taking place after the spirit birth because of the reference to spirits. The statement " I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen." could have either taken place before or after the spiritual birth. A gathering of spirits includes the respective intelligence of each spirit. In the same way that a gathering of mortals could be called a gathering of spirits. The spirits are there still present even though each individual also has a body. So, food for though as to whether any of these verses pertain to the pre-spirit portion of our existence.

I’ve heard various accounts of spirits being offered or given certain favorble or unfavorable conditions on Earth either as a reward for being valient in the preexistence or perhaps to allow increased development of a god-like attribute, A Downs Syndrome baby could be sent to a mother who needs to learn patience and humility, for example.

John 9:1-3 (KJV) states :

1.And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

These verses are an example of someone given a disability that ultimately lead to the power of God being manifest. Verse 2 clearly assumes that if the sinning was done by the blind man it was done in a previous life and Jesus did not correct them and say that the blind man was created out of nothing.

It assumes? Is this your thought? Church teachings? One cannot assume something and act as if it is fact. Is there clear proof the blind man has done something in his “pre-life”?

 

[gazelam]

So im less valiant because I have dark skin? Im here to be a burden on my parents to teach them what? Tolerate other dark skinned people? Your “so-called” prophets revelations are out of this world. I guess im not good enough to get to Heaven because now God is a racist and burdens people with ill children, dark children, bad children. Dont make sense seeing we are all Gods children. Hope you stocked up on water because it gets hot down there.

You are putting words in my mouth!! You are on my A list. Anyone for whom Christ gave His life a winner in my book.

 

[kimg901]

You are putting words in my mouth!! You are on my A list. Anyone for whom Christ gave His life a winner in my book.

I am not putting any sort of words in your mouth. Is it not your doctrine? Say it aint so. Speaking of Christ, when the Father and Son (The first 2 parts of the Trinity) decide to appear to you in a vision then you would feel differently. All of what your prophets spoke is false. Christ instructed me to protect His Church, and I will. By my life or by my death, His Will will be done. I will not let anyone speak ill of our Lord and utter such things as you and your church speaks. :knight2:

 

[TexanKnight]

You are putting words in my mouth!! You are on my A list. Anyone for whom Christ gave His life a winner in my book.

Unless you are black…then you are only accepted because the LDS Church faced financial problems if they did not stop being horrible racists

 

[TexanKnight]

Tex, I’m always learning … Explain this one for me…

Joseph Smith prophesied that we would find men on the moon dressed like Quakers.